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Author Topic: Another 1969 Z/28 "Barn Find"  (Read 1541 times)
1968RSZ28
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« on: April 05, 2014, 02:01:58 PM »

VIN: 124379N591197

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28-1969-camaro-z-28-302-dz-barn-find-real-deal-x-77-jerry-macneish-cortez-silver-/331169308979?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d1b3aa133&item=331169308979&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Seller's description...

"RARE 1969 Z/28 CAMARO X77 CORTEZ SILVER BLACK STRIPE TRUE BARN FIND. BEEN STORED SINCE 1997 LOTS OF DUST AND DIRT JUST THE WAY IT WAS FOUND. WAS DRIVEN INTO BARN WHEN STORED BUT DOES NOT CURRENTLY RUN.  HAS NON-DESCRIPT SMALL BLOCK IN CAR NOW WHICH IS STILL WEARING ITS ORIGINAL DEEP GROOVE PULLEYS, BRACKETRY, FAN, RADIATOR, BELL HOUSING, FLY WHEEL, ETC. ALL ORIGINAL BODY PANELS VERY MINIMAL RUST IN LOWER QUARTERS AS YOU WOULD EXPECT FROM AN ORIGINAL TEXAS CAR. AND SOME BUBBLES IN LOWER FENDERS. RIGHT FRONT FENDER IS DENTED BUT FIXABLE. HEADER PANEL IS DENTED ALSO AND GRILL IS CRACKED. FLOORS AND COWL ARE RUST FREE, TRUNK PAN WILL NEED REPLACING. WHAT APPEARS TO BE COMPLETE UNTOUCHED INTERIOR IN STANDARD BLACK. FACTORY TACH IN DASH WAS REPLACED WITH AFTER MARKET. HAS ORIGINAL CONSOLE GAUGES. HURST 4 SPEED SHIFTER STILL SHIFTS GREAT. SIDE OF FLOOR HUMP WAS CUT AT ONE TIME FOR SUPER SHIFTER. BOTTOMS OF DOORS AND EDGES LOOK GREAT. MOSTLY ORIGINAL PAINT IN JAMS. ROOF HAS LIGHT SURFACE RUST WHERE VINYL TOP USED TO BE. ONE SMALL RUST HOLE BY REAR WINDOW THAT I COULD FIND. ALL MOULDINGS AND TRIM ARE PRESENT AND LOOK TO BE IN GREAT SHAPE. FACTORY TINTED GLASS ALL LOOKS REALLY GOOD AND WINDOWS WIND UP AND DOWN EFFORTLESSLY. ORIGINAL 12 BOLT 355 POSI STILL IN CAR WITH AFTER MARKET TRACTION BARS. MUNCIE 4 SPEED TRANS IS GOOD AND HAS CORRECT CASTING NUMBER BUT NOT MATCHING NUMBERS.COMPLETE DATED CORRECTLY FOR CAR BUT NO VIN 302 DZ ENGINE. ENGINE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REBUILT BY PROFESSIONAL. AND HIS PHONE NUMBER WILL BE PROVIDED TO THE NEW OWNER AFTER SALE. AS WELL AS THE CARE TAKER OF THIS CAR FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS. DURING REBUILD BLOCK WAS SURFICED AND ENGINE CODE WITH DZ IS DIFFICULT TO SEE UNLESS UP CLOSE. CORRECT CRANK,11-1 FORGED PISTONS, SOILD LIFTER CAM, 186 202 HEADS,472 INTAKE,CORRECT EXHAUST MANIFOLDS,ORIGINAL SMOG EQUIPTMENT WITH CORRECT PULLEY, ORIGINAL VALVE COVERS, ORIGINAL AIR CLEANER, CORRECT 8 INCH BALANCER, ORIGINAL STARTER, 480 DISTRIBUTOR AND DATED RESTORED DZ CARB INCLUDED. THIS MOTOR WAS TEST RUN AND IS READY TO GO. ALL 4 CORRECT YH CODED 157 RALLY WHEELS WITH TRIM AND CAPS.THIS CAR DESERVES A PROPER FULL RESTORATION. THEY ARE GETTING VERY HARD TO FIND AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU'RE DONE. INCLUDED WITH THE CAR IS THE JERRY MACNEISH PHYSICAL CERTIFICATION OF AUTHENTICITY. ANY OTHER FURTHER QUESTIONS I CAN BE REACHED AT 817-431-2022 ASK FOR JOHN."

Paul
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 03:10:26 PM »

saw the listing for this car. Seems strange that it is a cortez silver car, but then Jerry says it is a rare tuxedo black car? typo?

Made me wonder how accurate the report on this car was.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
6667ss138
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 07:31:33 PM »

His ad states "BEEN STORED SINCE 1997 LOTS OF DUST AND DIRT JUST THE WAY IT WAS FOUND"  Jerry's report was done in 07 and states on three different lines "Under going full restoration" and also states "Solid original floors and trunk"   Seller states "TRUNK PAN WILL NEED REPLACING" So several discrepancies between the report and the ad. The color issue definitely gives the car a black eye, no pun intended. Smiley
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1969 07A X77D80 Hugger Orange/Black Vinyl Top, 3 owner car
1967 Chevelle SS396 138 Convertible/Red/Black int.
1966 Chevelle SS396 138 4sp California/Smog/Black/Red int.
jack92584
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 08:19:27 PM »

Somethings fishy here ... .Jerrys report also says that the interior and exterior colors do not match the trim tag..The trim tag pictured says its  Cortez Silver with a black standard interior which is what the car in the photos is. To many inconsistencies on the report to be typos, imo
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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
z28z11
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 09:12:07 PM »

I don't see the VIN represented anywhere except on Jerry's report.

Is it the same car between the ad and the report ? Puzzling -

Regards -
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
BULLITT65
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2014, 09:39:50 PM »

Well he has all the correct numbers of the trim tag on the report, because I thought maybe it was a different car as well.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
camaro jock
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 10:48:29 PM »

Maybe Jerry will jump in and clarify this issue. Darrell
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janobyte
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 07:45:23 AM »

Can verify the 302, with the guy who rebuilt it ,by phone ,after moneys out of your account.....sounds ok to me.


I'm curious for CHP input on this car. Documents can so easily be forged. It may very well be legit ,but all scammers "troll" for fish to snag ,and usually do....hear reports every few days on the news.

And even if it isn't a scam ,cleverly written disclaimers and descriptions have replaced fast talking.


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z28z11
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2014, 09:21:20 PM »

Excerpts from the ad on eBay - possible explanation about the TT/paint code mismatch:

"Q:  On paint condition, page 1, your appraiser says original color is Tuxcedo Black with White Stripes. And why does the cowl tag rivets, look like there filled with something ? Apr-06-14
A:   The car is Cortez silver and anything you see on the trim tag is exactly how it left the factory. It is untouched and original. Jerry did physical inspections on two cars that day belonging to the same previous owner and although the paper work also list Cortez silver with black stripes he made a typo because the other car is a factory black copo 427. Even Jerry m. (Wrote the camaro fact book) is human. We also just noticed it and I'm sure he would correct it. I have already left another q/a to this detail attached to auction site but will attach this one as well to clarify. Thanks for your interest.
"

Makes sense, but Jerry's assessment would clear things up -

Regards,
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
janobyte
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 06:46:52 AM »

So... Fees and expenses were paid to have 2 cars documented, and the owner did not catch a  " typo " ? 
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tmagda
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 10:30:13 AM »

How can you go though all of the effort to have the car verified and end up with a report that creates more questions than answers?
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janobyte
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 10:52:50 AM »

Simple enough ,if one was interested in the car ,call CHP--I am sure Jerry keeps a data base to cover fraudulent claims.

I can see were this would be a headache.

Once again ,buyer beware. I really can never wrap my brain around making a high dollar purchase sight unseen , and this is why. If you have ever been involved in litigation concerning this hobby ( I have ,body work, car was hostage in the shop) it's a nightmare and usually the only winners are the attorneys. Very subjective on values. Food for thought.
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 11:57:05 AM »

How can you go though all of the effort to have the car verified and end up with a report that creates more questions than answers?

It seems like Jerry is the main game in town (right now), BUT maybe it signals that there is room for another first gen Camaro specialist out there?

I think the hobby would benefit from having more than one specialist. So if Jerry had a bad day, or human error took place and mistakes were made possibly. (I have seen over a dozen of Jerry's reports, which while I admit is a small sample, and have seen errors in paint codes, matching numbers drive train components, time window correct items. I also have noted that his reports are not all as uniform as you would imagine, which in some cases may not have been possible.) I think what is frustrating is when questioned about these inconsistencies similar to this cars report, there is not a urgency or a percieved "lets make it right" priority that I see takes place.

On the other hand I am not Jerry nor know his schedule or staff and time constraints. I have heard many people who are happy with a part or parts he has restored for them.  I am sure he has looked at more than a few thousand first gens for correctness and continues to do so, which helps him and our hobby. All I am saying is I think it would be nice if a a report was generated by him that had errors, it would be nice to have another independent outlet to turn to, who was at least as reputable and knowledgeable to do their own in depth report that would stack up equally to his.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
asm69
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 03:06:23 PM »

is that hurst t-handle original? was their an option to have that added?
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janobyte
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 03:22:31 PM »

The data's available ,got to be willing to crawl through the car on your own to verify. Or pay  someone to do it for you. (if you don't like getting dirty)

 I had some items done at CHP and was very pleased with the results. He comes across as a standup guy.

PLUS, who is to say changes are not made after the report....I've posted before, probably your safest bet if paying high dollar for a supposed classic is inquire about getting the car inspected NOW and splitting the cost----if mine was on the chopping block ,I'd accept that. Price is reasonable for piece of mind. Of course I would have nothing to hide.

A few years back I went to look at a drag car ( 68 Camaro) out of state--looked great in the pics plus he had video of the car making passes. Well the car looked and sounded tired to say the least when we got there. I got a hot head and was instantly , um, mad. ( I was with trailer and cash for this pos.) Got talked into watching the tapes by my family. Some reason this guy's feelings were hurt by my reaction in the garage. So...current video was of some hard launces at the track, told him if it was a horse I'd have it shot and walked out. (and somehow my wife stays with me LOL! )

Like I've said ,cannot imagine buying without personally inspecting the car. And researching claims. I'm curious how this plays out.



Mind you the price of that car was peanuts compared to what a numbers Z goes for
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janobyte
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2014, 03:26:12 PM »

Looks like nobody is really biting on it.
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kenmerr80
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2014, 04:55:54 PM »

is it unethical of me to ask everyones opinion on what you think this car is worth?   I realize the factor of "how bad somebody, really wants the car" determines it.    Just trying to get an idea and compare it to other "barn finds"
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janobyte
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2014, 05:11:04 PM »

302 that can be verified by builder....after purchase. No VIN. Shiny engine on stand.

Jerry M certified !, of course a typo on the report which is blamed on him.

Dubious trim tag rivets...covered ?

I really don't care ,but something about this one tics me off. Look what a nice clean Camaro is going for and subtract the cost $$$$ of getting this one done.
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2014, 05:55:04 PM »

X2 Jano. You have the right idea on inspecting cars. I think your example was a no brainer once you saw it in person. BUT I think for every guy trying to pass off a fake 69 Z there are 10 buyers who know very little- just that they really want one. I think there is enough fraud, in the hobby to warrant a second guru of  first gen Camaros. I know Steve Shauger is very knowledgable as well, especially with the show he puts on of original cars. I think someone of Steve or Jerry's caliber, maybe based closer to the west coast would be a great aid to us, and especially the first time buyers, or guys that don't crawl under cars or turn wrenches. It is a skill to be able to read between the lines and know what is correct and what someone is trying to make it look like.

I think more than one outlet to get your car certified correct or numbers matching would be beneficial. I have seen guys on this site have a nice car get inspected, and the motor or color was questioned on his report, and then the same car is looked at a few years later and now it is certified numbers matching and or paint correct. In those cases a back up report by another professional looking at the car may have prevented confusion on such vital points, of contention and value in addition to originality.

It is frustrating if you were/are the owner of such a car, and hear of a second inspection done or a prior one for that matter that turns up a different result than your report you paid for.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
janobyte
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 04:40:12 AM »

You got my point ,a no brainer Wink

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ZLP955
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 05:15:24 AM »

What always stands out to me whenever I see a CHP Certification, is the statement:
"According to our data base and historical Chevrolet records, this car is an original <insert model> "
I guess only Jerry can confirm, and would not do that for obvious reasons, but since the only known GM records amount to the shipper info (not yet available via the NCRS), and unless the car has previously been inspected and certified by him (in which case, why re-appraise it?), what does the statement really mean?
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP
BULLITT65
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 10:42:36 AM »

I have seen guys get a new report because in the initial report it was not reported to have the original motor. The new owner possibly has pulled the motor and the new report says original matching numbers motor. I am not privy to know the exact details of how each case came to be, but have seen this happen more than once. Original paint color or stripe color on a particular report may say "wrong stripe color" , but not fully explained, until another report is done a few years later, which more details come forward possibly, but now the report may say color on car is the way it left the factory. I am unsure how much new information is involved with a "new" report.

I agree with you as far as that statement standing out. It sounds good, BUT is there some secret Chevrolet records that Jerry has? Or is he saying for instance he may look at a car and say it looks like an original Z, so we know according to chevrolet records there were 20,302 produced, and we do not show any previous report in or data base that conflicts with this inspection, so :

" According to our data base and historical Chevrolet records, this car is an original Z/28."

Again Jerry has seen many up close around the country, and at the Camaro nationals, I a sure he is a wealth of knowledge. I am just saying instead of waiting for new info to come out on a car possibly, it may help a buyer or seller to get a second professional opinion on a car.

 Although I have heard suggestions that there should be many guys around the country to perform such a service, I do not agree with that. It may make sense logistically to have a few, but I think to reputable and to keep the hobby honest it would be best for a very small group of people to be the ones who actually certify. I truly believe operating initially independent of Jerry, so any findings are not skewed would be best. After initial inspection a collaboration (if possible) with Jerry would be optimal.
What I could see happening, is a buyer/seller getting a report from Jerry , and having questions that Jerry may or may not be able to satisfy with answers, and someone(s) contacting a second guy or service for another professional opinion, where maybe he says Jerry couldn't say for sure if the partial vin number by the oil filter were correct. Since we (buyer/seller) are talking about a swing of 50% of the cars value (or purchase price) based on the original motor being there can you please inspect the car to verify if it is an original motor or not.
With the rampant fraud, and how much guys are paying for these cars these days, I just think of it like a guy worked really hard for the money to buy this car, possibly tens of thousands of dollars, we need to get this as right as humanly possible at the time of inspection, and if there are any questions lets try to verify, and get all the facts before the report is generated.
Or this guy did a lot of work putting this car together lets do our due diligence to make sure we describe our findings as accurate possible and if there is a discrepancy, we need to make sure we describe what or why there is one, or what kind of factual evidence we did find, that led to our findings.

I understand I may be a lone voice in the wilderness saying this on this site.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
jack92584
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2014, 11:56:00 AM »

I need to correct my earlier post. When I first read the report  I thought it said the the interior and exterior colors do not match the trim tag. What it actually says is “The exterior and interior colors do match the trim tag on the firewall”. Having said that it doesnt make me feel any better about the report because thats not the wording that I've seen in known authentic reports. The ones I have that I know are authentic are phrased “The exterior and interior colors are original and correct for this vehicle and match the trim identification tag on firewall.” Not exactly a smoking gun but certainly a red flag
Also, revisting the report I did notice something else that would case me to question its authenticity. According to the ad the car was driven into the barn in 1977 and now has a  “non descript” small block in it. Jerrys report notes a 302 with a 618 casting. Are we to believe that the “non descript” small block made its way into the car sometime after 2007 when the report was done? Again the wording on the report is not consistent with others I've seen. If there was a 302 present either in or out of the car at the time of inspection guaranteed that Jerry M would have made note of the casting and assembly dates. The engine description would read something more like Engine:  V1113DZ assembly date, “386” block casting, casting date K68, original 302 engine   
 
is it unethical of me to ask everyones opinion on what you think this car is worth?   I realize the factor of "how bad somebody, really wants the car" determines it.    Just trying to get an idea and compare it to other "barn finds"
Bidding is over 20k and the reserve is not met. IMO even 20k is too much for what I believe is  a possible X77 car with non original drivetrain in need of complete restoration Add 30k (or more) for a proper restoration and your in 50k and have a car that might be worth 40k or even less. I bought my car which is a rotisserie restored X77 with a date code correct but not matching  302 for 30K. I cant see this car being worth more than 10K..maybe a bit more if the shiny new engine without a vin could be autheticated as a real DZ.
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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
1968RSZ28
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 07:38:50 PM »

No sale 4-10-14...

Reserve not met = ? (> $20,300.00)

Paul
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