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Author Topic: Cowl Tag Check  (Read 1747 times)
1968RSZ28
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« on: February 18, 2014, 04:51:12 PM »

What do you guys think of this cowl tag?



VIN: 124379N609965

Paul
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 05:17:09 PM »

Why? Are you planning on bidding on it??

Link to EBAY AUCTION

Ed
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 05:49:06 PM »

Why? Are you planning on bidding on it??

Nope, just trying to educate myself.   Wink

Paul
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bcmiller
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 05:52:11 PM »

I am not an expert on tags, never will be.  But if I was buying the car with that tag, I would pay with $3 bills.    Cool
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1968 Camaro SS - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 05:54:49 PM »

Ok I will do it...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/306777/1
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z28z11
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 06:00:16 PM »

A couple of things bother me about this tag, although I looked up the VIN in the SC Registry and verified the Allen Green Chevrolet delivery in Seattle, WA. Rest of the story sounds plausible enough, could be documented for all I know.

1) This car is represented as an 02D car, and the body tag is 222032, yet my known original trim tag (01C car) starts 229(xxx). I remember seeing the statements before concerning non-sequential Fisher body tag assignment, but this is one of the first I have seen.

2) The Addressograph type set is exceeding fresh and distinct. A lot more so than my X77 tag.

3) Filler is pretty fresh on the repro-looking rivets, even to the fresh fingerprint/rub marks attempting to smooth it out. Tag has either been removed or replaced with a different tag or during refinishing. Which ?

Not a bad appearing car, although it needs correct spring rates in the front suspension.

My two cents -
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
z28z11
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 06:02:17 PM »

I am not an expert on tags, never will be.  But if I was buying the car with that tag, I would pay with $3 bills.    Cool

I'd use $2.50 bills - why pay more ?
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
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william
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 07:10:03 PM »

The tag is a reproduction for ZL1 #27 N609965. The car sold at B-J Scottsdale 2009 for $319,000. Since it was disclosed as a re-body at the auction it could be said the entire car is effectively a reproduction. I believe the VIN tag is OE.

It has been stated many times previously but bears repeating: there is NO direct correlation between body tag date and body number. The number had nothing to do with production scheduling. Cars built virtually at the same time can have tag numbers 20,000 units apart. The Gibb ZL1s were ordered at the same time and with one exception have sequential body numbers. They were not scheduled in numerical order and built December 27, 1968-March 24, 1969 a span of 88 calendar days. During that time over 66,000 Camaros were built.

This is also a good example of a body tag date not being an absolute indicator of final assembly. N609965 came off the line on or about March 5, 1969.
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Mike S
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 07:20:41 PM »

William,

 Was the disclosure done before or after the sale of the car? If after, I'm surprised it went for that much money unless there was other supporting proof of its authenticity.
I'm curious if it was a re-body, why reproduce the tag unless there was an engine fire or something else to damage the original tag (I have seen an engine compartment fire due to an oil line leak melt a trim tag extensively many years ago).

Mike
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william
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 07:36:51 PM »

It is still listed on the B-J website: "This car has been rebodied."

It was disclosed at consignment and has been a long-running topic on another site. This took place many years ago, prior to body tags being recognized as having importance. The OE tag may still be on the OE body.

Another disclosed ZL1 re-body sold at B-J 2012 for far more.
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ZLP955
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 05:04:50 AM »

Very interesting back story on that one, credit to Chuck for making known his actions.
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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bcmiller
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 09:58:05 AM »

In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 10:11:01 AM »

In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.

I agree

But lets play devil's advocate for a minute:

Lets say a car is a complete rust bucket or had/has been totaled or was a previous track car (drag or road race) and it requires all new floors, firewall, inner & outer quarters, windshield and back glass channels, dash, trunk floor, trunk lid, doors and fenders.  Would that not be considered a "rebody" if all or most of those parts were replaced either with NOS sheetmetal or not?   

I guess ultimately my question is how far is too far..??..
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Darrell Cook

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bcmiller
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 10:24:45 AM »

Again, just my opinion, but...

If the VIN tag stays on the original body, and each part replaced is done one at a time and documented with photos at each step, that is probably OK.

Moving the VIN tag from a car to another body is not OK. 
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1968 Camaro SS - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 10:46:11 AM »

In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.

I agree

But lets play devil's advocate for a minute:

Lets say a car is a complete rust bucket or had/has been totaled or was a previous track car (drag or road race) and it requires all new floors, firewall, inner & outer quarters, windshield and back glass channels, dash, trunk floor, trunk lid, doors and fenders.  Would that not be considered a "rebody" if all or most of those parts were replaced either with NOS sheetmetal or not?   

I guess ultimately my question is how far is too far..??..
Good point DW. My Ohio rust bucket needs a new dash. I am having sleepless nights wondering how that will be repaired without compromising the integrity or authenticity of car.  And my car is only a pittance in value, with no previous owner (other than myself) to come forward and explain how or why something was replaced. if there is documentation and a plausible explanation, should that not be enough to squelch the naysayers? On a similar, but, of course, less value to some, I would want some proof a car is a factory 4 speed if the tunnel was hacked up or had been replaced.
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1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 10:49:18 AM »

What about the other body with the TT AND the hidden VIN's?  another questionable car. How many original parts does it take to make a fake?
   VT
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cook_dw
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 10:55:30 AM »

Again, just my opinion, but...

If the VIN tag stays on the original body, and each part replaced is done one at a time and documented with photos at each step, that is probably OK.

Moving the VIN tag from a car to another body is not OK. 

I understand that but what if the cowl & dash needed to be replaced and the tag & vin & hidden vins had to be moved to new pieces? Would that not be similar if not the same.  Im not busting your balls just wonder when the gray area ends and the line begins.
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Darrell Cook

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1968 Matador Red Z28
bcmiller
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 11:55:16 AM »

Just my opinion, but those are not the same, and law enforcement knows the difference.

Panel replacement (and documenting each step) is probably OK and is not the "easy way out". 

Moving a VIN tag to a rust free body is a VIN swap.


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1968 Camaro SS - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
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Mark
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 02:13:29 PM »

Moving a vin tag, and sheet metal sections with the hidden vin numbers on it from one car to another body that had a different VIN on it originally is a felony in every state in the union.  Moving a VIN tag, and hidden vins numbers from one car to a replica body like a Dynacorn is OK, as the Dynacorn body is considered a large replacement part, it was never a car before the VINs were transfered to it.  That said, whats a ZL1 VIN tag on a replacement body with a non original engine and drivetrain worth?  don't know but it shouldn't be much higher than 0.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2014, 03:17:11 PM »

I agree with Mark. If the ZL1 is all about the aluminum 427, and the original motor is gone, I don't feel what's left is all that special. Certainly not 6 figures special. Same with a Z without the 302. To me, it's about what it is, not what it was.
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Jimmy V.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 03:50:59 PM »

So is a rebody like this ZL1 legal?
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2014, 08:05:03 PM »

Not if the donor body had a VIN number originally, ie it was another 69 Camaro made by GM.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2014, 11:26:37 PM »

Moving a vin tag, and sheet metal sections with the hidden vin numbers on it from one car to another body that had a different VIN on it originally is a felony in every state in the union.  ...

That's correct, because that is one method employed by auto thieves, to hide the VIN of the car they've stolen...

...Moving a VIN tag, and hidden vins numbers from one car to a replica body like a Dynacorn is OK, as the Dynacorn body is considered a large replacement part, it was never a car before the VINs were transfered to it.  ...

This statement would seem to imply that it's not the 'application of a VIN' to a autobody that is illegal, but the actual removal of a VIN from a factory built auto body that is illegal...?   If so, wouldn't it be an illegal act to remove the VIN from the rusted/damaged car *(ZL1)*  in this example case???   Does this suggest that law enforcement authorities could discern that the body the VIN was applied to was a 'dynacorn' rather than a stolen car body (but we can't??)..

... That said, whats a ZL1 VIN tag on a replacement body with a non original engine and drivetrain worth?  don't know but it shouldn't be much higher than 0.

All it says to me is that the person (owner) at one time had possession of a ZL1 body, before he cut it up (assuming the plate were original)...  not much different than holding the registration slip of a ZL1 (or ??) that you bought/owned at one time, but now don't...
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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