Author Topic: Cowl Tag Check  (Read 21672 times)

1968RSZ28

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Cowl Tag Check
« on: February 18, 2014, 09:51:12 PM »
What do you guys think of this cowl tag?



VIN: 124379N609965

Paul

bertfam

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 10:17:09 PM »
Why? Are you planning on bidding on it??

Link to EBAY AUCTION

Ed

1968RSZ28

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 10:49:06 PM »
Why? Are you planning on bidding on it??

Nope, just trying to educate myself.   ;)

Paul

bcmiller

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 10:52:11 PM »
I am not an expert on tags, never will be.  But if I was buying the car with that tag, I would pay with $3 bills.    8)
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

festival

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 10:54:49 PM »

z28z11

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 11:00:16 PM »
A couple of things bother me about this tag, although I looked up the VIN in the SC Registry and verified the Allen Green Chevrolet delivery in Seattle, WA. Rest of the story sounds plausible enough, could be documented for all I know.

1) This car is represented as an 02D car, and the body tag is 222032, yet my known original trim tag (01C car) starts 229(xxx). I remember seeing the statements before concerning non-sequential Fisher body tag assignment, but this is one of the first I have seen.

2) The Addressograph type set is exceeding fresh and distinct. A lot more so than my X77 tag.

3) Filler is pretty fresh on the repro-looking rivets, even to the fresh fingerprint/rub marks attempting to smooth it out. Tag has either been removed or replaced with a different tag or during refinishing. Which ?

Not a bad appearing car, although it needs correct spring rates in the front suspension.

My two cents -
Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

z28z11

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 11:02:17 PM »
I am not an expert on tags, never will be.  But if I was buying the car with that tag, I would pay with $3 bills.    8)

I'd use $2.50 bills - why pay more ?
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

william

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 12:10:03 AM »
The tag is a reproduction for ZL1 #27 N609965. The car sold at B-J Scottsdale 2009 for $319,000. Since it was disclosed as a re-body at the auction it could be said the entire car is effectively a reproduction. I believe the VIN tag is OE.

It has been stated many times previously but bears repeating: there is NO direct correlation between body tag date and body number. The number had nothing to do with production scheduling. Cars built virtually at the same time can have tag numbers 20,000 units apart. The Gibb ZL1s were ordered at the same time and with one exception have sequential body numbers. They were not scheduled in numerical order and built December 27, 1968-March 24, 1969 a span of 88 calendar days. During that time over 66,000 Camaros were built.

This is also a good example of a body tag date not being an absolute indicator of final assembly. N609965 came off the line on or about March 5, 1969.
Learning more and more about less and less...

Mike S

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 12:20:41 AM »
William,

 Was the disclosure done before or after the sale of the car? If after, I'm surprised it went for that much money unless there was other supporting proof of its authenticity.
I'm curious if it was a re-body, why reproduce the tag unless there was an engine fire or something else to damage the original tag (I have seen an engine compartment fire due to an oil line leak melt a trim tag extensively many years ago).

Mike
67 04B LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 05B NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

william

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 12:36:51 AM »
It is still listed on the B-J website: "This car has been rebodied."

It was disclosed at consignment and has been a long-running topic on another site. This took place many years ago, prior to body tags being recognized as having importance. The OE tag may still be on the OE body.

Another disclosed ZL1 re-body sold at B-J 2012 for far more.
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ZLP955

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 10:04:50 AM »
Very interesting back story on that one, credit to Chuck for making known his actions.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA.
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bcmiller

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 02:58:05 PM »
In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

cook_dw

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 03:11:01 PM »
In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.

I agree

But lets play devil's advocate for a minute:

Lets say a car is a complete rust bucket or had/has been totaled or was a previous track car (drag or road race) and it requires all new floors, firewall, inner & outer quarters, windshield and back glass channels, dash, trunk floor, trunk lid, doors and fenders.  Would that not be considered a "rebody" if all or most of those parts were replaced either with NOS sheetmetal or not?   

I guess ultimately my question is how far is too far..??..

bcmiller

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 03:24:45 PM »
Again, just my opinion, but...

If the VIN tag stays on the original body, and each part replaced is done one at a time and documented with photos at each step, that is probably OK.

Moving the VIN tag from a car to another body is not OK. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 03:46:11 PM »
In my opinion, a "rebody" is the same as a "VIN swap" and should be handled the same.

I agree

But lets play devil's advocate for a minute:

Lets say a car is a complete rust bucket or had/has been totaled or was a previous track car (drag or road race) and it requires all new floors, firewall, inner & outer quarters, windshield and back glass channels, dash, trunk floor, trunk lid, doors and fenders.  Would that not be considered a "rebody" if all or most of those parts were replaced either with NOS sheetmetal or not?   

I guess ultimately my question is how far is too far..??..
Good point DW. My Ohio rust bucket needs a new dash. I am having sleepless nights wondering how that will be repaired without compromising the integrity or authenticity of car.  And my car is only a pittance in value, with no previous owner (other than myself) to come forward and explain how or why something was replaced. if there is documentation and a plausible explanation, should that not be enough to squelch the naysayers? On a similar, but, of course, less value to some, I would want some proof a car is a factory 4 speed if the tunnel was hacked up or had been replaced.
Bentley to friends :1969 SS/RS 396 owned 79
1969 SS 350 (sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. owned since 85
1967 302 4 spd 5.13

vtfb68

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 03:49:18 PM »
What about the other body with the TT AND the hidden VIN's?  another questionable car. How many original parts does it take to make a fake?
   VT
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68 08E LA RS Y2 749 L30 M35
67 11B LA  RS/SS M-1 797-Z L48 M21  Convertible

cook_dw

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 03:55:30 PM »
Again, just my opinion, but...

If the VIN tag stays on the original body, and each part replaced is done one at a time and documented with photos at each step, that is probably OK.

Moving the VIN tag from a car to another body is not OK. 

I understand that but what if the cowl & dash needed to be replaced and the tag & vin & hidden vins had to be moved to new pieces? Would that not be similar if not the same.  Im not busting your balls just wonder when the gray area ends and the line begins.

bcmiller

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 04:55:16 PM »
Just my opinion, but those are not the same, and law enforcement knows the difference.

Panel replacement (and documenting each step) is probably OK and is not the "easy way out". 

Moving a VIN tag to a rust free body is a VIN swap.


Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Mark

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 07:13:29 PM »
Moving a vin tag, and sheet metal sections with the hidden vin numbers on it from one car to another body that had a different VIN on it originally is a felony in every state in the union.  Moving a VIN tag, and hidden vins numbers from one car to a replica body like a Dynacorn is OK, as the Dynacorn body is considered a large replacement part, it was never a car before the VINs were transfered to it.  That said, whats a ZL1 VIN tag on a replacement body with a non original engine and drivetrain worth?  don't know but it shouldn't be much higher than 0.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

jdv69z

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2014, 08:17:11 PM »
I agree with Mark. If the ZL1 is all about the aluminum 427, and the original motor is gone, I don't feel what's left is all that special. Certainly not 6 figures special. Same with a Z without the 302. To me, it's about what it is, not what it was.
Jimmy V.

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 08:50:59 PM »
So is a rebody like this ZL1 legal?
" He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught"  It's not you...  It's just the way my brain is wired.

Mark

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2014, 01:05:03 AM »
Not if the donor body had a VIN number originally, ie it was another 69 Camaro made by GM.
Mark C.
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69Z28-RS

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2014, 04:26:37 AM »
Moving a vin tag, and sheet metal sections with the hidden vin numbers on it from one car to another body that had a different VIN on it originally is a felony in every state in the union.  ...

That's correct, because that is one method employed by auto thieves, to hide the VIN of the car they've stolen...

...Moving a VIN tag, and hidden vins numbers from one car to a replica body like a Dynacorn is OK, as the Dynacorn body is considered a large replacement part, it was never a car before the VINs were transfered to it.  ...

This statement would seem to imply that it's not the 'application of a VIN' to a autobody that is illegal, but the actual removal of a VIN from a factory built auto body that is illegal...?   If so, wouldn't it be an illegal act to remove the VIN from the rusted/damaged car *(ZL1)*  in this example case???   Does this suggest that law enforcement authorities could discern that the body the VIN was applied to was a 'dynacorn' rather than a stolen car body (but we can't??)..

... That said, whats a ZL1 VIN tag on a replacement body with a non original engine and drivetrain worth?  don't know but it shouldn't be much higher than 0.

All it says to me is that the person (owner) at one time had possession of a ZL1 body, before he cut it up (assuming the plate were original)...  not much different than holding the registration slip of a ZL1 (or ??) that you bought/owned at one time, but now don't...
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Z282NV

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2019, 02:40:45 PM »
After selling at BJ this year (2019) it appears the car is again for sale. The story line appears to be more in line with the truth. Has to be the most expensive VIN tag in history.

https://www.cars-on-line.com/gen3-cars/col1/posting/71181
Joe
69 Camaro

69Z28-RS

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2019, 03:07:49 PM »
"In the late 1970's early 80's the car was mated with another 69 Camaro body. "

That's the line that I like...  :)  ..  in my mind, I'm seeing an old cut up ZL1 car, all worn out from it's racing life to that point...  and a nice bodied 6 cylinder Camaro...  in a dark room.  There are some noises during the night, and then.. the next morning... ..

A Shiny new ZL1 emerges!  :)  (Did the mom/pop survive?).. :)

The story goes on to tell of a couple of additional new 'incarnations'... (maybe that car is the 'original 4th generation ZL1'???

PS.  I've got an original '69 Z28/RS which I would allow to MATE with your (female) Camaro, so long as I get my alpha male Z28 back unharmed.. (If it's smiling, that's OK!)..  the fee for this would be... hmmmm.. what's a good fee for a known good stud Z28??  :)
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
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72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BillOhio

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2019, 03:20:25 PM »
I thought with a Dynacorn body you had to get a vin number from the highway patrol? I have a friend that worked for Ohio patrol I will have to ask him.
So when does this ZL-1 get someone in trouble?

1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1970 Z28 M22 4:10 bought from original owner
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

69Z28-RS

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2019, 03:50:29 PM »
It should get them in financial trouble as soon as they purchase it!!
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Cowl Tag Check
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2019, 11:40:28 PM »
...So when does this ZL-1 get someone in trouble?

As soon as there is any kind of insurance claim and anytime it is sold and it’s known history is not disclosed. Tainted piece that most don’t want to find themselves a part of ‘cause life has enough complications without investing in a hot mess.
Bentley to friends :1969 SS/RS 396 owned 79
1969 SS 350 (sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. owned since 85
1967 302 4 spd 5.13

 

anything