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Author Topic: photos of my 69 build,  (Read 2810 times)
KERR
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« on: January 22, 2014, 09:39:07 AM »

Ok,  I cant find the correct place for builds,   Mods feel free to move..  


Quick recap,  i was sold a " rust free" car thats wasnt rust free...  Here is what i have now,  



then we wet sanded it becuse that paint was nasty.





end result was it looked better than before,   i rode the car about a month and the fuel pump,  got that fixed and got cought in the rain...  once in the rain i relised that we have a problem.   water everywhere..  

So i took the vinyl roof off and it rusted,   but someone at some point did a half butt job and fiberglasses parts to the metal to fix...    from there i decided to just stip the entire car and see what all else has been done wrong.






quarter pannel,   i cut the bondo out..


Roof to windshild.



the entire car was covered in this gray stuff,  i thought it was bondo but this is over top of the bondo
  

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KERR
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 09:48:47 AM »

Some chunks of the bondo that came off with the scraper.



hard to see but that the door,  see how there are three different colors of filler or soemthing going on.







So i scraped all that off and there was nothing under it,  which was od,  moved on to the next pannel and Bam,  it has plate rivited on to it,  so to make the car look straight they just filled the doors full of mud.



so from the looks of it i need pretty much the passanger side.


Moved back to roof to see how bad it really was and well im screwed...   I busted the fiber glass to see what was under it and well there is much left.














So thats where i am as of now,  i started on the drivers side and it look like it will also need 1/4s and front fender...
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 09:56:03 AM »

Kerr,
Remembered when you first posted with pics. I applaud your desire to dig under the surface and expose the butchery and make it right. I will lend moral support. Enjoy seeing your progress and with your son, that is precious. I do have a question though, In your last pic, how do you keep your fingers and finger nails sooo clean? lol, Mine have been permanently stained with dirty broken nails since I owned my Camaros.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
KERR
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 10:13:27 AM »

Rubber glove Wink    I cought a nuckel on one of those rivit? things that holds the vinyl roof on,   after i got some gloves Wink

they are thin, but have the rubber coating on the bottom.  I always just buy the cheap one becuse once i take something off i can never find it again between the kids and dogs..   
I tried this pair and they are good for big job but if you really need your fingers to work they dont well.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_67271-94953-LW37120/L5P_0__?productId=3516488&Ntt=gloves&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dgloves&facetInfo=

Now yesterday i got a pack of them for like $4.00  but they are not chemical stuff,   i had to put a gate up someone kicked in,   rusted screws are not my friend Wink

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Stingr69
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 11:14:12 AM »

Whats the plan?  Are you going to break out the MIG and re-do it?  It looks pretty bad.  Been there-done that. 

-Mark.
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 11:19:47 AM »

Maybe, your car was "that" Camaro they found in a lake, last summer, in Oklahoma,lol. Sometimes when we uncover all the damage in our project, it makes us wonder what kind of life our car has had and where it has been? I'll add, not dissing your car or anything like that, but feeling better about my car and what I am up against after looking at yours. I have a long way to go though.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
68Zproject
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 12:39:45 PM »

I'm not a body guy, but wouldn't it have been easier to reskin that roof rather than spend all that effort with the fiberglass?
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68Z28
KERR
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 01:08:17 PM »

well to be honest i dont know..

i have some friends that do body stuff,  of course everything is fixable as they say.     Im sorta thinking new 1/4 that are the full length,  new roof skin, and what ever is needed under the skin...   Im about as far as i can go considering i know nothing about stuff..  looks like front fends are about 250-300,  so im this far in might as well get those as well.   to be honest it looks like i have two good doors and a hood. Sad..    the fire wall looks good on the out side, but knows once its all taken apart. 

I dont plan on ever putting the car up for sale, so i guess fix it correctly is my only option.   I just wish i had known i would have passed and bought a "rough" car...

the original game plan was a copo cloned look,   black wheels black body no options...  then a big big motor,  like 632 or something...  but now that im going to have to cough up this money for new parts, and labor and paint,  that will be a long time down the road,   other thought was th400 on the column and my old turbo big block thats fuel injected..

Right now i just try not to puke when i see it     
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68ashgoldRS/SS
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2014, 01:20:45 PM »

Great opportunity to get some father/son time!  Had my 78 year old father over last night adjusting gaps on my fenders/doors...  no other hobby/project in my experience has left me with better memories than that time with my dad.  I wish you and your son the same gratification of accomplishing a resto together.  My father bought my brother and i and old '31 Ford Coupe when I was about 12 years old, it kept us busy and out of trouble for alot of years!  Best of luck!  Ed
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Ed Denney from South Jordan Utah

1968 Camaro RS/SS -Restored
1931 Ford 5 Window Coupe, Chopped  -Project
1965 Corvette Stingray -Project
1956 Dodge D100 Pickup -Project
1936 US Soldier, Dad -Best Friend
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2014, 01:44:31 PM »

I'm not a body guy, but wouldn't it have been easier to reskin that roof rather than spend all that effort with the fiberglass?

That's exactly what I was thinking...
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Fred - Milwaukee, WI
1969 Camaro SS350, M21, 12 Bolt, (01B LOS Build)
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 01:47:52 PM »

I agree with previous posts ,sheet metal to "do it right " $$$ Angry   Time spent with your son ( and lessons learned together ) priceless ! Grin


Word of advice: Before doing one more thing ,sit down ,draw up a plan of attack with short term goals to accomplish 1 specific long term goal based on your budget. ex: want the car in primer year one: price all sheet metal + labor/favors. Start gathering your parts , got them all ? Contact your buddy ,see what he want's you and your son to tackle ,set a date to start on the body.

year 2: interior ,glass ,misc

year 3: engine/driveline

Obviously time line increases/decreases based on budget. Take your time and enjoy the build ,do it right once ,and your boy should have a cool car to take a date out in Shocked ( grades permit!)--steve.
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 03:58:00 PM »

man that is nasty! I can think of no better motivation to do it the right way the first time then when I see pics of a guys work that looks like that.
KERR that car will be cherry when your done with it, and you will know it inside and out.
That car will end up being a blessing to you and your son:
Hopefully it will educate you and your son on how to buy a clean car and spot rot, or shaky body work, and you will both will know how much time and money it takes for the next project.

I applaud you for taking on this adventure!
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
Sauron327
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 04:18:05 PM »

If you are paying someone be prepared to fork over a lot of cash. With zero experience and no shop you can learn to do it yourself; that's if the car is even worth saving. Some say they all are but that depends on the individual. GM assembly line take offs are the sheetmetal parts you want, even if they need work. Late stamped NOS are not plug and play. If you are going to proceed, gut the whole car. No need to strip that garbage off the panels. It all gets bulk dropped before media blasting the body. Then you'll find out if what's left can be carried in a suitcase.
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Azure1969Z/28
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 06:36:49 PM »

Not cool. That thing is trashed. Ouch
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1slow64
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 08:07:00 PM »

did you buy this from a private seller or a dealer? I would like to know who it was so another person won't make a costly mistake.....
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69 X66 RALLY GREEN BLACK COMFORT WEAVE
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 10:33:06 PM »

Wow that had to hurt, but I'm sure you'll work it out. I know hind sight is 20/20 but maybe a magnet would have helped? "TRUST BUT VERIFY"
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Jim
68 Z/28
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 01:50:50 AM »

Wow. Perhaps this is a crazy question, but you said you bought a rust free car. Was it advertised as such. If so I would think that you would have a case on your hands.
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Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 02:30:41 AM »

Wow. Perhaps this is a crazy question, but you said you bought a rust free car. Was it advertised as such. If so I would think that you would have a case on your hands.

good point
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
ZLP955
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 04:29:42 AM »

Kerr, I admire you for persevering with this build, you certainly seem to have kept your humor despite how the car turned out to be....... hang in there, the good folks here will be able to offer advice and encouragement. Plenty of good threads over at Team Camaro too, for motivation and neat ideas! Good luck
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 07:22:39 AM »

There is often no recourse if a car is found to be rotten. No rust is wide open to interpretation. If there is no visible rot then sellers will state rust free. A buyer uneducated in bodywork who becomes disappointed after a teardown is common. Sometimes a shiny paint job hides butcher work and they fall for that. The hack job on those quarter skins is no surprise. Many people think their backyard butcher repairs are good enough. They are clueless in the trade, have no equipment or money and want to patch a POS any way possible to just drive the car. Cars like this were common.
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68Zproject
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 01:56:27 PM »

Kerr, have hope.  I don't think that car is that bad.  You're pissed and rightly so that someone sold you this car as "rust free".  I'm giving the benefit of a doubt that the guy may not have known about the repairs.  You wouldn't have known except for stripping it down and you will feel good about knowing that your car looks good and was done right when you finish.
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68Z28
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 06:53:05 PM »

You wouldn't have known except for stripping it down
May not have realized the full extent of issues, but have another look at the front of the roof above the windshield trim in picture #1 of this thread for a hint of what lay beneath.....
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 06:53:57 PM »

I honestly hope this works out for you and if you do proceed place the build on team Camaro under "builds". Good luck to you!
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
z28z11
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 12:02:46 AM »

I showed the pics to a very good friend of mine that completely rebodied a '67 vert over the last couple of years, mostly because he couldn't bring himself to crush it. It was an original 6 cylinder car, if I remember, and he ended up replacing nearly every piece of metal on the car with the exception of the cowl panel and firewall (trim tag, hidden VIN area, door plate area) that represented the originality of the car. What an absolute hell he put himself through, for the sake of saving a Camaro.

His first advice to you - junk it. He corrected himself a little, mainly because of the project status you mentioned with your son; he also said having done this once, he would never do it again under any circumstances.

The upside - the '67 is really shaping up into a killer modified car, I can't wait to see the painted car. Small block, runs fabulous, shows what dedication does in the face of finding your car in worse shape than you imagined. Good luck in your future build - keep us updated on your progress (or your decision).

Regards,
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 12:17:18 AM »

By the way, in pic 1164, is that a spring that was used as a spacer between the inner and outer panel ? Rusted pretty bad, but I think that's what I see. What a disaster -

Regards,
Steve
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 12:56:14 AM by z28z11 » Logged

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Azure1969Z/28
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 12:33:30 AM »

By the way, in pic 1164, is that a valve spring that was used as a spacer between the inner and outer panel ? Rusted pretty bad, but I think that's what I see. What a disaster -

Regards,
Steve
Pretty sure that's the top of the visor bracket
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z28z11
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 12:52:56 AM »

Just realized that's what it was.

I've seen some in a local junkyard that have sat in the weather for 30 years that aren't rusted that badly. Amazing what neglect can do to even a driven car -

Regards -
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
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1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 10:04:13 AM »

I've seen some in a local junkyard that have sat in the weather for 30 years that aren't rusted that badly. Amazing what neglect can do to even a driven car - ...

Probably the difference is in WHERE the car was driven.. and was not in the south (where you and I luckily reside).. Smiley
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2014, 11:03:45 AM »

You're 100% correct.

I have always believed that south of the Mason-Dixon line was safer from a road salt point of view, but you should see my Malibu after being continually stuck behind brine trucks and salt spreaders here in Tennessee over the last month. It went from silver to a half inch of dirty grey/brown road salt deposit. Thank goodness I don't have to drive a Camaro to work -

Regards -
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2014, 12:47:05 PM »

We don't have salt trucks... Smiley     and on those *rare, once in 4-5 yr* days when we have ice on overpasses, etc..  they use sand (which is not 'good', but much better than salt)...
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2014, 01:12:31 PM »

We don't have salt trucks... Smiley     and on those *rare, once in 4-5 yr* days when we have ice on overpasses, etc..  they use sand (which is not 'good', but much better than salt)...
You ever seen a car parked near the beach for a period of time? That salt water mist is devastating! So not all Southern cars are well preserved time capsules. A few cars that come to mind, remind me of KERR's.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
69Z28-RS
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2014, 01:41:58 PM »

Yes, I have...  and when you get down to Florida, and/or anywhere around a beachfront area, you can see those things (sand has a certain amount of salt in it typically)..   

related note:  A friend of mine (from my USAF days '68-72) had his '66 Hurst Shelby stolen from a NY/Queens street (in front of his house) right before he joined the USAF.   We'd been in the USAF a couple of years, when he got a call from his insurance company; they had *found* his car.. or at least the 'hull'..  the car had been 'stripped' of every removable part, and the raw body dumped on the seashore somewhere in NY/NJ.. and in only a couple of years, it was rusted to 'worthless'.... 
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2014, 05:14:29 PM »

In all honesty - My advise is to look around for a better core.  This one will cost too much and take too long to do it right.  It is worth more as a parts car in my opinion.  Sorry.

-Mark.
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2014, 05:34:02 PM »

Just one thing to comment on as I have a son and 5 grandsons and agree working on a car with one is special but I can also talk from experience that the task should not be overwhelming or it can have a negative impact. As we all know younger people have a more limited attention span and after awhile it can be not so much fun. Smaller projects with quicker rewards work much better.
I applaud the effort both individually or as a father and young son but please evaluate carefully before plowing into a course of action. Again, all the luck to you!
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
KERR
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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2014, 10:00:53 AM »

Sorry for the late reply.  this post has blown up,   i posted all those last week then get the flu,   


Yes i got the car from a dealer,  i dont think they knew the car had the problems,  and the way it was all hidden there was no way to to know.  besdides the roof,  i guess the car has been fixed correctley over time,  the body work was straight as can be, and gaps where good, also all the pannels sounded the same,     I guess the only way i might have been able to find out about the roof is if i took the head linner down,  but im not what you can see with the it down.. ive never had one out in a camaro.   

What i find interesting is they fiberglassed the roof, on the top,  then did nothing on the sides,  just left those holes about the size of your thumb...   or maybe they came in after they painted the part and fixed the roof?   I do know we went over the car as pretty good,  i figued a roof sikn from the start because i dont like the vinyl top,  and if i had left the rest alone it would have probably been ok,  but if im going to do the roof might as well do everything else..


I guess for now ill sand down those two doors and see if anything is under them.   If not then i know i need both front fenderes,  both 1/4 pannels,  trunk lid,  roof and god knows what under the roof skin...   

Then take the car to our lake house one night and just leave it,   ive got a 2 car garage down there thats to small for the sububrans to fit in so it just empty... it has heat and air and a security system so i think ill just take it down there and leve it until i buy all the parts.. 

The last custom car i did,  we did all the body work and paint first which sucked,   so ill probably just order everything,  then get some money saved up to have it all installed,  then just ride it in primer until motor and everything is done..    Its a total pain in the ars working on a finished car,   it seems like the harder you try for something not to happen the more stuff happens...   


I am a dealer and he was a delaer but ive never had a issue like this.  In the past ive had to have cars bought back that mileage issues,  or  frame damage,  but not over rust.   So i ask a friend who deals in the old cars all the time and he said its yes and no,   Yes i can try to fight and no its probably not work it unless they other dealer just got scared and bought it back.   but chances of that are slim to non.  So im going lawers fee's etc and on the old car stuff its not a open and shut case..    Exaple if you bought real copo car, with everything correct, numbers, papers etc,  and then get it and the motor is out of say a 71 dump turck, then yes you have something to work with,    but with the rust bening covered up,   his lawers will play the card of he didnt know,  bla bla bla...     

I think if i try to go that way,  i just need to call the dealer and see who he got it from,  he only had the car a month by they way title work show's.    play the card of both of us are interested in talking to him... 
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2014, 10:19:55 AM »

Laws generally favor the buyer, but remember most sales are "as-is" a legal defense in letting seller off the hook. You could go back to the dealer (in a very civil manner, mind you) and show your evidence and plead your case and see if "seller" is willing to do something about the purchase. If not, best to move on (IMO) and take what funds and energy you might put towards litigation and put that towards your car. As a member, here I believe, put it, "consider it tuition payment for schooling (of hard knocks)".
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2014, 02:09:19 PM »

yea thats what im thinking,   Im not killed in the car,   i went buying a "rust free" car and paid more that i feel like i should have at this point considering what i have to fix,  but if was say $5K less i would felt better..  Ive looked for years and its either a good car $30k ish,  to start with,  or it needs everything for $10-15K.   

The cars ive seen that are already done are like $60K sooo, in the long run i should have about that amount in this one but have what i want,   but with that said big motors arnt cheap so i cant really compair prices..

I bought a running driving pretty good looking car,  it just hid its flaws well...   Sorta like the really hot woman from the bar or club,  they never look the same in normal lighting lol...    It is what it is i guess.     I looked on AMD and it looks like i need about $3K worth of parts so its as bad as i thought..  I just dont know what labor will cost to put it together. 

Ive been down the road before,  once you start you dont stop.  Back in 1990 same deal on 67 vette..  Frame off restoration,  everything new,  then crashed the car like a pro in 94,   suied erie ins car set for years,  when we  fixed it i fixed as a driver in 96-97,  fast forward to now and its showing its age..   I havent done anything to it, becuase if you fix one thing then the rest has to be done.  That and i kinda like the look of the abused car,  stress cracks, bubber melted on the paint,  paint faided in spots and then some a hole keyed it...    its like the 67 vette that no one cares about...  turns quite a few heads...   heck i havent washed it in 3 years,  i just get it and ride with all the dust and dirt on it,  lol,  the exhaust has turned the red lines black on the back as well as the wheels...  look like im rolling slicks on steelie in the back,   but its fun.. 

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cook_dw
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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2014, 02:49:46 PM »

If you want to replace the top on your car; I have a top that was cut off of a 67 back several years ago that is in really good shape.  Might be worth the effort instead of cutting and welding in pieces of metal.  PM if you are interested.  I live 20 miles east of Nashville and will be at the Fairgrounds this weekend at the Stones River Swap Meet.  Also let me know what other parts you may need cause I might have them.  Good luck on the build.   Smiley
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Darrell Cook
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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2014, 06:52:42 PM »

That car is a mess.  From the few photos posted, I can only imagine how bad it really is.  I am betting the rear frame rails are just about gone, and I would be surprised if one good speed bump wouldn't put them though the floor.  This car could get you killed on the road.  I would even be willing to bet that a rebody from dynacorn would be cheaper than the repairs needed.

If the car was advertised or you were it was rust free, and the seller held himself out as a car specialist, then you certainly have legal recourse over and above that of a regular private seller.  If you want to stay away from lawyers and retainer fees, I would call the guy, and let him know that he was reckless with the truth, and that you relied on his statement or advertising of a "rust-free" vehicle.  That this statement is way in excess of simply puffing up the sale of the car, and is fraud.  State to the dealer that you feel that a $5K refund would be fair, and if refuses, that you will sue him. 

A small claims lawsuit if pretty easy to handle for the average joe, and you would likely win as long as you have a good expert witness.  It would be in the interest of the dealer to settle with you, as even though you can represent yourself as a pro-se litigant, the dealer MUST hire an attorney, as a business can not represent itself in a legal court trial.  By you filing a $300 small claim suit, he would have to hire an attorney, which would more than likely want a minimum of a $5k to $10k retainer. 

I suggest you call and try to settle for a reasonable refund.  If he says no, then file the suit, and I bet that upon hiim recieiving it, and realizing attorneys are expensive, and that paying you $5k to go away, is cheaper for him.  Just my opinion.  It couldn't hurt to try.  With a situation where this is a car dealer holding himself out as a professional, you have a lot more legal protections, and he has a certain level of requirements when giving facts about a car he is selling, and what is relied upon by you when he makes certain statements.


 

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