Author Topic: gray phosphate  (Read 13495 times)

sbmiano

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gray phosphate
« on: December 12, 2013, 01:41:25 AM »
How do I paint something to achieve the gray phosphate color
69 z28  Van Nuys 04D Legends Certified
09 viper 5k miles

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 01:52:11 AM »
 I think Eastwood sells a paint to look like phosphate. I have seen the results and you can tell it is painted.


Mike
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cook_dw

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 01:53:15 AM »
Edit:  Mike, you beat me to it..   ;D

There are paints that look like phosphate.  Eastwood is one company.  Phosphate is actually a chemical reaction and it creates a protective layer over the part.

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Darrell Cook

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BULLITT65

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 03:47:38 AM »
very informative link. It looks like the results can vary a bit, and it takes playing with it a bit to get the amount of sheen you want on your end product. Have you tried this little phosphate experiment yet Darrell?
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Charley

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 06:17:00 AM »

BULLITT65

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 06:30:49 AM »
On their website it says you have to heat to 210 degrees, are you placing the container on the stove, and then dipping? what was your process and can you post a pic of your results Charley?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 08:05:39 AM »
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

cook_dw

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 01:08:41 PM »
[
very informative link. It looks like the results can vary a bit, and it takes playing with it a bit to get the amount of sheen you want on your end product. Have you tried this little phosphate experiment yet Darrell?

I have and it does take a little while to get the results you want.

http://www.palmettoenterprises.net/Palmetto_Enterprises/-Welcome-.html


Easy to use and cheap.

Charley, I do not see that the Palmetto is much different than the Phosphate Prep & Etch..  You use the same basic process..  Am I missing something?
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

janobyte

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 01:47:55 PM »
I've everything ready ,and my products from Palmetto ,just have not had a chance to get out there. The quarts net a lot of product ,which per Scott can be re-used. The Manganese is mixed in more concentration than the phosphate ,but is said more durable. Hence the use on hood hinges/springs. He sends out an instruction sheet and personally answers any questions ASAP. Like one of the Mustang guys posted : dollar for dollar way cheaper than paint with correct results.



I plan on using a hot plate for small items.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

69Z28-RS

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 02:49:19 PM »
I use a small one burner hot plate and a set of various sizes of SS pots I purchased at Walmart.    and the Palmetto chemical.  For small/med amounts of water, the hot plate works fine and heats up within a few min, but I tried once with a 3 gallon pot and I'm not sure I ever got to 200F using the hot plate.   I think it will be better to use a propane heater for larger amounts (and do it outside) - another use for the burner/stand taht I use for my turkey fryer!).. :)
The Process is:   1) heat water to 200-210F, 2) add appropriate amount of chemical, mix, then 3) submerge the part(s) - I generally try to circulate the solution or the part while it's in the bath.  4) upon removal, wash/dry parts in WD40 (3 times).   I generally spray down again with WD40 and put the part in a plastic ziplock bag until I'm ready to install.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 03:03:54 PM »
 I have only used 180-190 temps for phosphating. You don't want to start a boil or else you'll start to get crush developing in the pot and that is hard to clean out. I learned that the hard way until a gun restorer showed me that 210 is too close to boiling and after backing it down to 190 things went much better.
You will also want to use a diffuser under the pot to prevent hot spots from developing.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

69Z28-RS

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 03:05:24 PM »
I have only used 180-190 temps for phosphating. You don't want to start a boil or else you'll start to get crush developing in the pot and that is hard to clean out. I learned that the hard way until a gun restorer showed me that 210 is too close to boiling and after backing it down to 190 things went much better.
You will also want to use a diffuser under the pot to prevent hot spots from developing.

I agree Mike.  If I get close to 200F, I'm happy with the temp.   What do you use as a diffuser?

Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Charley

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 03:12:40 PM »
Cook....All I know is Palmetto was the first guy I found selling it years ago and he has kept it cheap and simple to use. You can get a stainless salad bowl or stainless pot at someplece like Walmart and cook bolt soup on your outdoor Gas bar-b-que.

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 03:13:06 PM »
 I have a small pot with a copper bottom plating and for the larger pot I have what is called a 'stove top heat diffuser' I bought at a dollar store. I have seen them for sale on Amazon too.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

Petes L48

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »
Yep, turkey fryer works very well and you don't want to get much higher than 190.  I use a shallow SS serving pan or a porcelain finish cooking pot.      

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 03:18:36 PM »
 hehehehe....We all are starting to sound like chefs. Better not let the ladies hear about our stove top gourmet experiences or else we will have to cook the next meal.  :)

Mike
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NoYenko

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 12:25:57 AM »
I have been using this crock pot for all my small parts.  I don't know if I posted the link correctly. "Re: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings « Reply #161 on: February 02, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »"
The nice thing about this is I can leave it on my bench ready to go, takes 15-20 to warm up, been using the same solution for 6 months. Handy if you only need to do a couple bolts. George

NoYenko

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 12:33:23 AM »
Here's the picture. $14 at Walmart.

69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 02:56:45 AM »
Great info. Going to try it tomorrow night. Will post the results.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

68camaroz28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »
I've everything ready ,and my products from Palmetto ,just have not had a chance to get out there. The quarts net a lot of product ,which per Scott can be re-used. The Manganese is mixed in more concentration than the phosphate ,but is said more durable. Hence the use on hood hinges/springs. He sends out an instruction sheet and personally answers any questions ASAP. Like one of the Mustang guys posted : dollar for dollar way cheaper than paint with correct results.



I plan on using a hot plate for small items.
Our cheap hot plate (two burners) works well in that it will only take the solution to between 180-190 degrees which is perfect and I can utilize different pans. Do like George's idea!
Two things one quickly learns, one, parts have to be prepared correctly, and two, the cleaning after the phosphate/manganese bath or you may have salt/white spots. I scrub small parts like bolts/screws with a soft brush (used toothbrush) & WD-40. Do some searches here and Team Camaro and there are some excellent threads concerning the subject.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
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69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2013, 09:41:34 AM »
Luke and I decided to have a Phosphate Party tonight and we invited some of our favourite fasteners to attend. Check it out…

Step One

Organize glass beaded parts.



Step Two

Fill a pot with water and bring to a boil. We used a hot plate and it brought the water to perfect temperature in about 15 minutes.



Step Three

Then add the Parkerizing Solution to the water. We just did a batch of dark Manganese tonight. Next we will do Zink, the lighter grey colour.





Step Four

Once the temperature is around 190 Ferinhieght it is time to drop the precious parts into the magic solution.



Step Five

Here Luke cradles the virgin, freshly blasted metal. All the kids into the pool.



Step Six

We left the parts in the solution for 15 minutes then removed them and Luke sprayed them with Boeshield.



Step Seven

Then we let the parts dry for a few minutes.



Step Eight

Next Luke touches up a few parts that were a bit dry with Boeshield.



Step Nine

The final product. Enjoy the fruits of your labour. Wonderful, glistening, freshly phosphated original parts. What could be more exciting than that?


Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

TooManyReels

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2013, 01:16:04 PM »
The parts look great when finished, so please don't take this the wrong way since I know nothing about this process. What keeps the parts from returning to the kind of rusted looking parts that are shown in step seven once the oil spray evaporates or dry's off..

TMR
Eddie
Eddie
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Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2013, 01:47:01 PM »
Hi Eddie,

   The phosphate is a good base to retard the corrosion that can develop on a unprotected part and to protect the part further you can apply either a coat of oils (I use Dri Touch because it looks dr) or paint.
I use a small model brush to apply the oil to the smaller parts (bolts, nuts, brackets etc..) and the Z-bar, alternator and water pump pulley's. I try to do it 3 times a year especially on the pulley's which get hot and dry the oils.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:03:55 PM by Mike S »
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2013, 02:09:26 PM »
Hi Mike,

  Thanks for the picture of your 'party'.
One suggestion I would like to make is before placing the part in the phosphate solution you can first  put the parts in water and bring to a boil to float off any oils that me be present so as to minimize the risk of blotches and also doesn't contaminate the zinc solution. The parts will then be hot and the plating process will occur much faster.
  Just a suggestion though.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

NoYenko

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2013, 04:53:22 PM »
Mike, nice work and good reference for future searches. George

68camaroz28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
The parts look great when finished, so please don't take this the wrong way since I know nothing about this process. What keeps the parts from returning to the kind of rusted looking parts that are shown in step seven once the oil spray evaporates or dry's off..

TMR
Eddie

Eddie, I treat all my parts I have phosphated with "Rust Prevention Magic" as it leaves the parts in a natural looking state. I even tested it on a natural cast iron 427 alt. bracket I had treated and then sprayed the bracket with water. After three months the only place it formed some rust was in holes and crevices I had not coated. I even used it on my driveshaft!
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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TooManyReels

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2013, 02:23:45 AM »
Thanks guys. This is all very helpful.

Eddie
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69 Z28 X33 Cross Ram JL8

69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2013, 05:08:16 AM »
Here's a few more pics showing better detail of the result. These pics show the bolts still wet with Boeshield on them.



Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

jmcbeth

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2014, 01:16:22 PM »
Thanks for the great info here. It is very consistent with other authoritative sources on the topic. I have completed the disassembly process on my '69 and am gearing up to clean and parkerize all the nuts and bolts. The one part of the process that I am still struggling with is protection of the parkerized parts. i've read about WD-40, PreLube 6, Boeshield and Rust Prevention Magic. Some recommend re-coating once or twice per year. I can't imagine doing this for all the nuts and bolts and washers on the car. Is that what others do?

Thanks,

John

PS: I do want the factory look, so spraying with clear coat is not an option.
John
1969 Camaro Z/28 RS
Numbers Matching

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2014, 01:25:58 PM »
 I use Dri Touch ( http://www.birchwoodtechnologies.com/store/rust.html )
I have a quart since the 80's and use a small model paint brush to apply it.
The site above shows gallon sizes but one gallon will last you a life time.
I apply about twice a year. It dries and doesn't have that wet look nor collects dust.


Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

68Zproject

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2014, 02:48:54 PM »
Which one?
68Z28

Mike S

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2014, 02:55:46 PM »
 They sure came out with much more choices since I got my can. This would be the same type: DRI TOUCH® DS Dewatering Sealant

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

68camaroz28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2014, 03:47:28 PM »
Thanks for the great info here. It is very consistent with other authoritative sources on the topic. I have completed the disassembly process on my '69 and am gearing up to clean and parkerize all the nuts and bolts. The one part of the process that I am still struggling with is protection of the parkerized parts. i've read about WD-40, PreLube 6, Boeshield and Rust Prevention Magic. Some recommend re-coating once or twice per year. I can't imagine doing this for all the nuts and bolts and washers on the car. Is that what others do?

Thanks,

John

PS: I do want the factory look, so spraying with clear coat is not an option.

Hi John,
The WD-40 immediately after taking out of the bath is more of a cleaning process to remove salts (those white spots that can show). I've found that soft brushing (old tooth brush works well) and utilizing mystery oil works excellent. Again, this is just what I do immediately after parts coming out of the bath. For the long term no going back to coat I've been using Rust Prevention Magic which leaves no shine or oil look whatsoever. Sixteen months ago I took a 427 cast iron alternator bracket that was rusty and placed in evaporust to obtain a bare cast iron virgin looking piece. I then coated it with Rust Prevention Magic and hung it up for a few months. Then sprayed it with water and let it sit. After over 16 months the only rust on that casting is down in crevices or tight areas I missed. Overall it works great but have found on smooth parts like metal stampings (top of a seat track is a good example) I did have some minor formation of a very light surface rust that even wiped off with the finger. Only thing you need to apply rust prevention magic is a heat gun and a brush. Google for info and have fun with the cooking class......
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

clm69z28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2014, 04:52:09 PM »
I parkerized quite a few of the under hood parts that were either mag or zinc phosphate, including some big parts like the hood hinges. In my  experience, cleaning and temp control are really important. I tried to stay away from sandblasting because the surface texture is usually changed with a rougher texture and detail is lost. I would start by treating the parts with Evaporust and if that didn't work, short dips in muriatic acid would usually do the trick. Then I cleaned them with purple degreaser and then placed the parts in boiling distilled water and without touching the part, transferred it to the solution. I used a barbeque and a 3/8" metal plate under the SS pan to maintain the temp as close to 190 Degrees as I could. I used the finishing oil that comes with the kit and it has worked pretty well. I am near the coast and I don't see any significant changes in the finish from new; just sort of a nice aged look.

janobyte

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2014, 05:19:04 PM »
If you dunk them in a bath of WD-40 after coming out of the solution ,will that remove all the deposits ,or does it require the pressurized spray ?
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

69Z28-RS

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2014, 05:30:34 PM »
If you dunk them in a bath of WD-40 after coming out of the solution ,will that remove all the deposits ,or does it require the pressurized spray ?

The phosphating instructions tell you to wet it down with WD-40 and wipe it clean (3 times)...  i've done it that way, and also 'immersed' the parts in WD40.   I think either way will work so long as you wipe the part and do it a couple of times.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

clm69z28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2014, 05:31:32 PM »
I have not tried WD-40, I usually just rinse the parts in cool water afterward. Then I  treat it with the finishing oil that comes with the parkerizing kits. I also believe the deposits are more a function of the process and the better the process is followed, e.g. water levels are correctly, the temp. maintained  and the parts clean, etc., will help control the deposits more than can be accomplished after the fact.  

janobyte

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2014, 07:05:15 PM »
Well....I'll be finding out soon enough. As it comes back apart( taking some vacation in June) I'm setting up a station to restore the fasteners ,bag and label them. Palmetto (spelling ?) offers detailed instruction, none the less I rely heavy on "been there ,done that"

Going to drag this out over the summer, really want to do final assembly starting late fall over the winter---long stretch of nasty NE Ohio weather calls for a fun project!
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2014, 08:02:43 PM »
Here are some parts I did with the lighter Zinc Phosphate, also treated with WD-40 or Boeshield. Parts were done about 3 or 4 months.





Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

68camaroz28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2014, 08:10:44 PM »
One of the main reasons you clean the parts immediately is to remove the solution or you will have white spots develop. Palmetto suggests cleaning the parts to remove grease/oil, glass beading, and then within two hours start the phosphate process without handling the parts with bare hands . IMO glass beading bolts and screws does not impact the texture to any extent of causing issues but there are many parts I would not glass bead for that very reason. That is what I do but have for just a quick couple things cleaned and wire brushed which can be acceptable. Just like painting though, the final part is only as good as the preparation. I'm sure there are many ways to accomplish satisfactory results! :) Gary is of course correct the instructions do say spraying and wiping three times with wd-40 but the soft brush helps eliminate the three and out wiping mode. When I first started every so often even after wiping and spraying 3 times a part after sitting would obtain a white spot which is the salts mentioned earlier. That is when I found "Mystery Oil" took that off immediately so I started using it with a soft brush with nice results. Recently I was helping a friend get started with the process and he had a pan of WD-40 which we put the parts in that first, scrubbed with the brush and then into the mystery oil for a final bath before taking out and wiping down. Another key is when you take a part out spray it, dip it, or whatever immediately with the oil.
Example of sub-frame bolts after completion-
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

69Z28freak

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2014, 08:23:04 PM »
Forgot to mention. The hood latch was done in Zinc and the bolts were done in Manganese. Shows a good contrast between the 2 finishes. Hood latch as well as the bolts were glass beaded then sprayed with WD-40 several times, then left to air dry.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

clm69z28

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2014, 09:07:52 PM »
69z28freak:

Those parts look really good. I will definitely try the glass bead the next time around; same with the WD-40/Boeshield treatment. Looks like I should oil them up a bit..

janobyte

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2014, 01:07:08 AM »
I love the final product in the above pics " Marvel Mystery Oil" yet another application ,and I like the smell ! 

My Z is Ash Gold, not really a color that stands well by it self ,but likes blacks/grays to bring it out. (IMO).  Chrome really does not , and why I always felt Cragers didn't work on it. Compared to "mags" or the OE's.

In the days of Roman Red paint and chromed everything under the hood, it really took a back seat.

Needless to say, Im sort of excited in the near future to be opening the hood and be looking at the above...in my car. The contrast is really going to work with the color. As usual ,helpful stuff guys.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

sbmiano

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2014, 02:47:43 PM »
not sure if it matters to you but the spring on the hood latch should be gloss black
69 z28  Van Nuys 04D Legends Certified
09 viper 5k miles

janobyte

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2014, 05:53:48 PM »
matters and noted--thanks.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

KurtS

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2014, 05:16:37 AM »
I have NOS parts (and seen many originals) and the hood hinges and front hood latch are black phosphate - darker than shown above.
Either dark gray or black.
Kurt S
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firstgenaddict

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Re: gray phosphate
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2014, 05:55:00 AM »

Original hood latch and hinges off the X66 conv I am painting now cleaned, degreased, evaporust, boeshield or cosmolene then white lithium grease





Lloyds car after the same cleaning as above




James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
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