69Z hard start, backfires on acceleration, stalls when breaking, related issues?

[doomer]

After a recent rebuild, I find myself chasing down gremlins here and there. One thing is bothering me, and since I am not much of a mechanic at all, I am hoping someone can spot the problem.

1. The weather has gotten cool, and I have an issue with difficult starts. Once started, she idles well while I am waiting for it to warm up.
2. Once running, if I accelerate more than a tiny bit, I have backfiring and sputtering. If I accelerate very slowly, it's fine. This goes away if I drive it for a long while, and lessons as the day warms up, but never goes away completely.
3. One longer cruises, sometimes when I roll into a turn while breaking, it will stall. Sometimes it will stall when coming to a stop even on a straight away.

Frustrating! 

'69 Z/28
DZ302, recent rebuild.
Holly Carb (4053)
New break booster/Master Cylinder
Orig. M21 tranny
Pretty much all stock otherwise

[cook_dw]

First things first.  Make sure the float level is good.  Backfiring through the carb is a lean condition.  It could jetting, timing or both.  More than likely it is just carb tuning that needs to be done.  I would make sure the timing is in line with what it should be..  Also carb jets should be in the range of 68-72's on the primary and 72-76's on the secondaries..  But those are just stock settings and a lot of the time need to be dialed in to the elevation, etc. 

But all in all I would bet you either have trash in the carb, too low of a float level or jets too small.. 

[janobyte]

Also check for vacuum leaks , like Darrell said ,you are presenting a lean condition ; not good ,higher internal temps. Check your plugs ,post pics of ALL 8---we can read them, also check for moisture/cracks in your cap.   To check floats: trickle of fuel out side plugs at idle , I'm assuming 780 vacuum secondary's ?   I'm stopping.Could be something as simple as a fouled plug--pull them and read them.

[BULLITT65]

I had the same problem with Mustang stalling out when braking. I assume you have power brakes. I had a vacuum leak at the carb base, and a couple of old carb gaskets. An easy way to check is with some starter fluid. Get the car running and idling on its own and then spray starter fluid around the out side base of the carb, if the rpm picks up you have a leak.
Spittering and sputtering: once you solve your vacuum leak, then new plugs or (check the gap) , points (check the gap), condenser, cap and rotor, check your vacuum on the distributor (they are adjustable), new plug wires. (pictures of the plugs will tell you if its to lean (white colored), or to rich (very black, and full of carbon).
Check your timing.
If you still have the issue Clean out the carb, I assume its a holley which if any little bit of debris is in there it will not run smooth. blow out the carb and make sure all passage ways are clear and free flowing. Check (or replace) your power valve while you have apart, and as Cook mentions check to make sure you have the right jets, set your floats.
If it still runs a bit rough post up what you took care of, and we'll go from there...
Good  Luck! 

[JKZ27]

All of the above... BUT, be careful spraying flamables on a running or hot engine.
And, make sure the choke is working right.

[69pace]

All of the above... BUT, be careful spraying flammables on a running or hot engine.
And, make sure the choke is working right.

X 2 on the working choke and double check its adjustments. I chased my tail this month with a working choke, but poorly adjusted resulted in flooding and very rough idles until it burned off some fuel.

Also watch the paint job starter and carb cleaners eat paint off metal surfaces so use them as leak detectors with car to your new painted intake. An unlighted propane torch is also a good way to test for leaks.

[doomer]

Thanks for all the great advice! As for the choke, I am pretty much an idiot. I may have just been a little too aggressive when trying to start up on a cold morning and flooded it. The weather has only been cold a few mornings so far, and I think I just pumped it too hard. The weather has warmed back up and I have to wait until another cold morning comes around to verify things.

Now that the weekend is here I hope to have time to go through a basic tune up, and if I can find a decent  reference for this old 4053 I will try and ensure that it is set correctly.

[doomer]

Here are my plugs.

http://s829.photobucket.com/user/vetteran81/slideshow/1969%20Camaro%20Z28/Plugs

Obvious tuning issue. #5 worried me a little.

[BULLITT65]

If your choke wasn't set right, yes your going to see some carbon from that. Most of your other plugs look ok. I would go ahead clean up the plugs make sure the gap is ok, re-install, and your probably good to go!

[cook_dw]

Just replace the plugs..  You can not get an accurate reading on reused plugs plus new plugs aren't that expensive..  With choke working correctly also check the resistance on the #5 plug wire  & reference it to the resistance to another wire of similar length..  Once that is don't install new plugs & drive it for 10-15 miles & look at plugs again.  Making sure #5 isn't fouling..  Just my $0.02

[BULLITT65]

If they are old plugs not a bad idea. I would give it whirl with the ones you had if they are fairly new. Hell even if they aren't it only takes a minute to swap them out. I assumed your spark plug wires are in good shape, but I would follow Cooks advice if number 5 continues to be an issue.

[Ramjett54]

Also check the brake booster diaphragm

[doomer]

I replaced the plugs, and checked the gaps on the originals. The old plugs were not gapped to 35 as prescribed. Looks much larger (60?) However, my original points dizzy is out of the car waiting on a rebuild. I have a Pertronix Ignitor III
 distributor setup in it now, and a Pertronix flamethrower coil. This basically means much more spark, so I am not sure the larger gap made a difference.

After gapping and installing the new plugs, 2-pumps and she starts right up. It was 40 degrees out this morning, and no problem at all with starting. I'll take her for a short spin today before I proceed further. Then I hope to tackle the carb & vacuum leak checks.

How does one check/adjust the choke? I understand the need for the gap check on the choke plate when closed. It is about 9/32". Are there other adjustments to check? This is the original style choke, not electric.

Shane

[janobyte]

Appears some variation in gap---your wider gaped plugs appear to be the culprits. If your running a stock ignition it doesn't have the power to "jump" the gap---spark weakens. Try a new set ( as suggested ) of Autolites, set per manual. I'm not going to suggest a change in heat range due to a few look good. You can check your wires with an ohm meter--also watch it running in the dark to see if any wires are arching. One step at a time, work from your plus back in your trouble shooting ,isolate systems. Wow, like I posted could be as simple as a fouled plug

[janobyte]

You posted as I was typing. .060 is a large gap ,more than we run on the race car. Sorry ,those early chokes I do not know how to adjust the speed in opening. Later models were easy +/-  2 hold down screws. I do not run a choke, no cold driving.

I'm sure dozens do on this site.

Get on Holley's website ,tech ,you will learn everything you need.

[Steve68]

How does one check/adjust the choke? I understand the need for the gap check on the choke plate when closed. It is about 9/32". Are there other adjustments to check? This is the original style choke, not electric.

Place the choke cam on the high step (the end of the screw on the high step) and adjust the screw to around 1500 - 2000 rpm to get your choke set at appropriate engine rpm's in cold weather.

[Steve68]

Doomer,

Sent you an email with instructions, pics, and additional adjustment info.  To large a file to attach here.

Steve

[doomer]

You posted as I was typing. .060 is a large gap ,more than we run on the race car.

After a short drive, the backfiring seems to be resolved. This is after replacing the previous plugs with new autolites that were all gapped at 35. Crossing my fingers.

Thanks again to everybody who helped. CRG is definitely my favorite online resource.  

[janobyte]

Gotta let these carbureted engines "warm up". In todays world of EFI . often forgotten. Glad to see you may have solved it !

[sixt9x33rs]

Did you get your choke adjusted the way out want it? The adjustment is done manually with a straight slot screwdriver. You manually "bend" the tang that sit on the cam related to the choke assembly. It is simple to do.

[KERR]

Mine is doing the same thing,    However i just got the car so i dont know what has been done and what hasent.

When i go to start it in the AM,   It takes for every..  Plan to spend about 5 min just to get it to start.   Its like i have no fuel...    Dont touch the gas it just cranks and cranks,   but you can hold it wide open and it just cranks and cranks..   finally it will start sputtering and come to life..  even when it does start it keeps dying.

Once you make it out of the garage / drive way it  back fires, stumbles a lot...    once the motor is all the way warm it does some what better but its way off.   

Ive ordered a rebuild kit for the carb... i hope to do that saturday.

[JohnZ]

Dont touch the gas it just cranks and cranks,   but you can hold it wide open and it just cranks and cranks..

Neither of those two methods of starting it from cold are allowing the choke to work - they both leave the choke blade wide open so it isn't pulling the extra fuel it needs to start.

Just push the accelerator to the floor once or twice to set the choke, then turn the key, and it'll start (unless the choke isn't properly adjusted).

[KERR]

well i had time to look at mine this weeked..  first off i only know a little about carbs,

 #1,  if you take one apart make sure your kids arnt around or it will never go back together!

 Anyway,   i had a freind help me and pretty much the carb needs help.    the choke is electric and has been bypassed.  then for the stumbling he adjusted a buch of stuff with no help.  next it was take apart and cleaned,  no help either.. 

He said from the looks of it,  i need a accelorator pump,  a cam something, and a few other things...    So i think im just going to buy a new carb that isnt a eletric choke and a vacuum secondary,     

[JohnZ]

well i had time to look at mine this weeked..  first off i only know a little about carbs,

 #1,  if you take one apart make sure your kids arnt around or it will never go back together!

 Anyway,   i had a freind help me and pretty much the carb needs help.    the choke is electric and has been bypassed.  then for the stumbling he adjusted a buch of stuff with no help.  next it was take apart and cleaned,  no help either.. 

He said from the looks of it,  i need a accelorator pump,  a cam something, and a few other things...    So i think im just going to buy a new carb that isnt a eletric choke and a vacuum secondary,     

This is not that difficult. What intake manifold and carburetor do you have?

[KERR]

to be honest i would have to go look,  I want to say its a holley street advenger? and i think the intake is a Edelbrock.     Its probably a good carb if everything is fixed,  but ive never had good luck with electric chokes, and vacuum secondarys.   I have a Holley 850? double pumper on the vette with manual secondaries.  I never have a problem out of it besides the usual adjustments for weather. 

There is a 850 for sale in the local traiding times,  but thats over kill for the camaro.   
on a side note i did run across a two 4's on a weind manifold and two stage direct port kit with optional fogger set up...   But considering im pretty sure this a stock motor with a cam,  it would go bad in a hurry lol..     

I just dont want to spend a lot of money on the car at this time to get the little problems worked out.   I bought the car for the body / frame to be honest,  and i got lucky that it sorta runs.   Id rather go cheap /used and make it reliable to drive for now,  and save my money for big and better parts,   Then again ive thought about just taking to the lake and putting it into storage until i buy all the parts...       

The game plan is a real real big big block, with a 6 speed and prob a ford 9 inch,     or reuse my current 496ci motor thats turboed,  and 4l80E,  not sure a manual will live when banging gears under boost.

[BULLITT65]

I think the manual 6 out out of a 4th gen would work just fine. My friend has a 73 Camaro with an LS1 and one of the bigger turbo set ups that i have ever seen and doesn't have any issues. His car is built around autocross and has about 900 hp to the rear wheels

[z28z11]

A couple of things that have not been mentioned in previous replies -

The accelerator pumps on the stock 4053's typically don't give enough of a shot to prevent stumble on acceleration - plus the combination I ran needed more carb, so I changed mine out to an 850 DP - worked for me - I had this problem back in '75. Cold plugs will give you a lot of deceptive problems (found this out the hard way, too - started my rebuilt 302 in '75 with Autolite A22 racing plugs, was ready to toss in the towel until I changed back to the hotter AC std. plugs and cured it). I was running 12.5:1 Manleys in it, with an Erson HiFlow 2H hydraulic - it would literally fly when it finally got the combo ironed out.

A couple of good backfires will trash your power valve(s). Be sure and replace it with the proper configuration valve, one that matches your original carb's numbers.

Lastly, the Pertronix is a good system, or you can use good HD GM or Accel points if you retain a points distributor. Strong coil helps, too - use a ballast resisitor if you use a high voltage coil so you won't burn your points up prematurely if you do use points. Common sense stuff -

Regards,
Steve

[KERR]

I havent done anything yet...  i took the kids for a ride saturday and it died,  will not restart..  i guess the fuel pump gave up