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Author Topic: Racing AMX Information  (Read 15648 times)
Shadow Ahead
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« on: October 03, 2013, 11:44:59 AM »

For you AMC detectives I'm seeking photos, articles, leads on two-seat AMX's with primary interest in the '70 model if such an animal existed in SCCA, FIA, IMSA or gymkhana events. Next best would be '68 and '69 and any '68 or '69 that was converted to either the '70 sheet metal and/or front suspension. I appreciate your help in advance.
 
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 10:56:03 PM »

Not a '70 model but Ike Knupp (center, below) had a very competitive AMX that he raced in the B/Production class in SCCA road races.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:21:30 PM by Jon Mello » Logged

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 09:33:19 PM »

One of the most famous. Thank you.
In reading about the rules in place during the era it appears that cars could be updated or even backdated to represent a given production year.
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mike343sharpstick
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 07:27:16 AM »

Here is an AMX on the east coast that is currently under restoration.


From the http://theamcforum.com/forum/1970-amx-scca-b-productiOn_topic42680_page1.html.
In 1975 when I graduated High School I bought a 70 AMX. it was a 390 4 speed a/c car.  None of the people knew how to mod an AMC so i called up AMC located in Elmsford, NY ask asked for some info. I was bounced around and finally got on with a guy named Frank Lipare. Frank was a Senior Management type. He told me the he and a fellow AMC manager scooped the car off the assembly line in 1970 and transformed it into an SCCA car. A lot of the work to the body was done at a boat shop in Long island, the fiberglass front and rear flares. The motor was done by the famous Jocko Maggicomo and Speedwin Automotive , Long island.  the car raced at Bridgehampton and Lime Rock. It was raced until 1974 when it became illegal due to the cubic inch restriction. they decided not to destroke it so it was parked until like 1975 when Frank began to club race it, again on Bridgehapton Long Island and Lime Rock Conn. Frank did hel me with technical infor and parts. I first saw the car at his home in Manhassett, Long Island in 1976 or so. I even went a few times with him to Lime Rock and Bridgehampton to help out on track day.  I bought the car in 1981 and street raced it in NJ almost exactly how it was set up for road racing. Smoked a lot of people. Sold it in 1985 and got it back in 2002 where it has been sitting since.. Frank passed away in 1988 and so did the document history of this car.  I will completely go through it and bring it back to the almost exact condition it was when raced with a few modern upgrades..
 
It has a 390, Venolia 11.5 to 1 pistons, Ported 291 heads, cross ram, Reed roller can T-10 4 speed,4 wheel discs, ATL fuel cell.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 08:54:29 AM »

Mike,
  This one in particular is what got me motivated to find any other "'70" AMX's that would have raced in SCCA, FIA, regional club, autocross, whatever. I put '70 in quotation marks because if the AMX looks like a '70 or is really unusual in specification ( such as a converted '69, or an AMX with unique racing modifications[ blister hoods, flared wheel arches, individual induction or with cross-ram - but not an SS/AMX- and so on] ) that's really what I'm after. Though I'm an avid follower of all things T/A, and Javelins, in particular, my personal leaning is toward the AMX. The '70 Donohue Javelin ( with the RWR yellow '71 Javelins in the personal favorite #2 spot ) is the ultimate T/A ride. The '70 AMX sheet metal is very similar.

S A
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1109RWHP
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2013, 02:51:17 PM »

Here is an AMX on the east coast that is currently under restoration.


From the http://theamcforum.com/forum/1970-amx-scca-b-productiOn_topic42680_page1.html.
In 1975 when I graduated High School I bought a 70 AMX. it was a 390 4 speed a/c car.  None of the people knew how to mod an AMC so i called up AMC located in Elmsford, NY ask asked for some info. I was bounced around and finally got on with a guy named Frank Lipare. Frank was a Senior Management type. He told me the he and a fellow AMC manager scooped the car off the assembly line in 1970 and transformed it into an SCCA car. A lot of the work to the body was done at a boat shop in Long island, the fiberglass front and rear flares. The motor was done by the famous Jocko Maggicomo and Speedwin Automotive , Long island.  the car raced at Bridgehampton and Lime Rock. It was raced until 1974 when it became illegal due to the cubic inch restriction. they decided not to destroke it so it was parked until like 1975 when Frank began to club race it, again on Bridgehapton Long Island and Lime Rock Conn. Frank did hel me with technical infor and parts. I first saw the car at his home in Manhassett, Long Island in 1976 or so. I even went a few times with him to Lime Rock and Bridgehampton to help out on track day.  I bought the car in 1981 and street raced it in NJ almost exactly how it was set up for road racing. Smoked a lot of people. Sold it in 1985 and got it back in 2002 where it has been sitting since.. Frank passed away in 1988 and so did the document history of this car.  I will completely go through it and bring it back to the almost exact condition it was when raced with a few modern upgrades..
 
It has a 390, Venolia 11.5 to 1 pistons, Ported 291 heads, cross ram, Reed roller can T-10 4 speed,4 wheel discs, ATL fuel cell.

Is this what it looked like when it was raced?  Looks cool.
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klvn8r
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 02:31:01 PM »

There was a 69 that ran Sebring, 1970, I think.....it was restored by Eisenberg's crew out west....pretty sure the car was at the last Monterey Historics.  White with large blue sail panel....red wheels.

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mike343sharpstick
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 08:17:47 AM »

I believe this is the one you are talking about.
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mike343sharpstick
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2013, 08:26:25 AM »

This AMX was for sale some years ago, It may be the first one posted??
It has a very interesting rear suspension.
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group/7
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2013, 08:41:34 PM »

not just what your after, shadow but bob tucker ran a '68 or '69 AMX for bannerman motors from toronto in sedan events in the province of ontario in 1969. photos of this car are hard to find. I have a few shots of this car from the net, at mosport race track. it ran in pretty much stock body configuration.

mike in canada
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2013, 09:02:20 PM »

I'd like to see it.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 09:45:15 PM »

I believe this is the one you are talking about.


I'll have to dig up my notes. I took a few shots. Here's one:



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oldtransamdriver
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 10:25:46 PM »

Mike, Bud Tucker works close by and I see him occasionally.  An AMX was classed as a B production car - was not run as a sedan.  His son Gary Grant runs  "The Garage Blog".

Robert Barg
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 09:39:08 AM »

Wasn't the B Production classification based on displacement? The interesting part of the puzzle for the ride pictured above is the class it competed in. I can't say more at this time but I do believe the cutoff was just below 360 CI. If any AMX's officially
ran with 390's, for example, they would have run up in A Production or the equivalent GT IMSA classification, from what I understand of the various race classes. Yes?

T S
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »

robert, thanks for the clarification on the class for the tucker AMX. the photos I found were from I think the garage blog. maybe bud tucker could get them posted here. interesting that the photo of the chitwood camaro posted on the '67 trans-am thread is from bob tucker ! no relation ?

  mike scott.
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oldtransamdriver
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 11:32:47 AM »

Mike, I don't believe Bob Tucker is the same guy.  Gary from the Garage Blog should have any pics of Bud running his Sprite or AMX.

The early AMX was a 2 seater so did not qualify as a sedan per SCCA specs  Not sure how SCCA classified A,B,C etc production classes but it also had something to do
with performance specs as classes were bumped up and down thru the years.

Robert Barg
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klvn8r
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 10:59:25 PM »

I have a 68 AMX, last ran vintage as A/P since I had a 390 'plus'.  Current configuration will be a 343, and be B/P.  Pretty minimal differences, otherwise. Four wheel discs, 7.5" wheels, single four barrel, etc.  390 cars were classed against BB Cobras and Vettes, 343 cars ran against SB Vettes, and Shelbys etc. 

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2013, 07:52:57 AM »

I'm curious where the displacement "line" is between AP and BP. The other curiosity is whether
 to leave some form of drum brake rear or go with discs.

S A
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klvn8r
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2013, 01:45:48 PM »

The "line" is decided by the SCCA rulebook.  Sadly, if you have a 70 AMX, you only qualify for AP....even with the little 360.  My guess would be the 'line' is somewhere after 350 CID, as some of the 350 Vettes are BP.  I've come to the conclusion that I can build a 343 to run as good as any 289/302 Shelby, and similar to a legit 350 SBC.....but I'm not going flares and huge tires, like a Vette.  As for brakes, I'll keep my rear drums for starters, and decide later if I need the discs.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2013, 09:13:55 PM »

Hence a 390 for a '70. A 360 would be giving up too many inches. The drums sound like a good start. Anything trick like segmented shoes or simply metallic linings and braided hose?

 S A
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klvn8r
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2013, 01:56:17 PM »

For whatever reason, the AMX is homologated with the regular drums or discs up to the exact same size as a Corvette,  11 3/4" x 1 1/4".  I'm thinking of stuff like Matador wagon drums out back... Wink  In 1997, I ran my AMX at Road America with a Corvette front discs.  I built my own caliper bracket, but decided that maybe it was too thin/weak.  I had problems with the Vette Brakes Products calipers leaking, and decided that it was due to flex in my bracket.   Yes, on the braided lines and custom shoes...probably something from Porterfield.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 07:54:53 AM »

If you can go that large, why not. Which begs the question since the Corvette factors into what is allowed. Were any of the calipers alloy?

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klvn8r
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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 08:17:42 PM »

No, the Vette pieces are cast iron...and heavy....but they work good on Vettes!  "Production" stuff keeps you pretty limited, but it would also depend on what 'vintage' club you're running with, and how strict they are. 

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 10:41:00 PM »

That's where I'm more inclined to find the right AMX for me and the ideas I have and then find an organization that generally fits. I was almost talked into the Vintage Trans AM group but a) it's very expensive to enter events outside the travel expenses, b) what I want/ expect from an AMX would severely narrow my latitude of choices in order to meet the historical requirement. i like the concept, and the look, of vintage "iron" but want the flexibility of finding a suitable candidate that doesn't have to have the "pedigree".
 I'm sure, when they aren't leaking, that those calipers stop.

T S
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2013, 01:15:03 AM »

I know the Trans-Am cars were allowed to use the lighter, aftermarket calipers like Girlings and Hurst/Airhearts beginning in the
1970 season. However, the AMX was an A or B/Production car and not eligible for the Trans-Am series. I would have to go looking
through the rule book but I suspect the production cars were not allowed to use the aftermarket calipers back in that era.
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Jon Mello
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2013, 09:18:39 AM »

I'd be interested in finding out, Jon. I understand the desire to keep the historical "architecture" in place. I also understand that what works is important in a sport such as this. There are many period alternatives to choose from that are capable, if allowed. On the other hand, having said that, the Lincoln calipers are legal, like the Corvette ones, they are heavy. Another way of looking at it is it forces the creative side of the brain to work overtime to overcome the rules limitations.

T S
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klvn8r
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2013, 08:23:19 PM »

The 68 Kaplan cars had the big Lincoln fronts and I believe standard Mustang fronts on the back of the Javelins.  Girlings were on the 70 Penske cars, and I believe Roy Woods went to the Airhearts in 71 or 72.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2013, 07:35:44 PM »

I read about the Girlings which they derived from the 917. One of the cars, if my buddy still has it, that I'm considering is set-up similar to the '69 and later Baby Grand National Javelin front suspension-wise I do not wish to saddle it with heavy calipers were I to get it.

T S
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2013, 09:05:53 PM »

You probably need to figure out what racing group you would like to run with and what they allow as far as brakes and other details are concerned. The one decision will take care of the other.
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Jon Mello
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2013, 11:11:37 PM »

Perhaps. perhaps not. The way my personality works the car has to arrest me. The body or sanction "authority will follow from there. My question would be  is that if it's a road race concern, as opposed to gymkhana, you mentioned that there were some regs you could look up. Give me a nod in the right direction and I can do the rest of the legwork.

T S
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klvn8r
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 07:06:19 AM »

If you're leaning toward a modern lighter caliper, check SVRA, but not medallion classes.  You'd be shocked at how well iron calipers etc can be improved....160 mph Corvettes use them reliably.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2013, 08:55:37 AM »

Yeah, Kelvinator, I was joking about the leaking. I bet they have been massaged to the point of excellence. I just don't want the weight. Given that most braking is from the front even with 50-50 weight distributon ( static- of course ) going with drums is great solution given that they are inherently lighter when talking about ones that are made from like materials. With drums it allows you to be legal for more classes without incurring a major weight hit.

T S
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SMKZ28
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2013, 03:52:30 PM »

Here is a picture of the #60 AMX at what must have been an SCCA race at Watkins Glen in 1969 or the early 70's.  I found the picture at a web site dedicated to the half red/half blue 1968  SCCA  B/P AMX: http://www.ssamx.com/1968_scca_bp_AMX.htm  Check out the three nice Camaros and two Cobras as well. 

I also noticed that the picture is also in the Interview with Gary Morgan thread here on this web site: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7770.0;all
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klvn8r
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2013, 05:59:21 PM »

That is Ike Knupp in the TEAM (Technical Employees of American Motors) AMX.    A factory basement effort headed up by Jim Alexander and Knupp.  Car was run in 69 and I believe won the Cen-Div that year.  They went to Daytona for the runoffs, and I've read that Knupp was leading Alan Barker when something broke.   There is a Corvette book (about the L-88??) where Delorenzo or Thompson  mentions Knupp out-qualifying all of the BP Vettes and many of the AP cars.  This picture might be in that book....it looks slightly familiar.  Nice find, SMK!!!

klvn8r

PS--the car pictured on the SSAMX site is a different AMX than the one pictured above.  Knupp did enter a race or two driving that one....but the car in the pic with the Cobras is not it.  After speaking with Alexander many years ago, we determined that the original car was most likely lost. 
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wolfmin
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2013, 06:10:29 PM »

There's an interesting picture in the book "Corvette-Star Spangled Sports Cars" that shows the Owens-Corning Corvettes taking the checker, finishing 1-2 at a national at Mid-Ohio in the rain and right behind them finishing 3rd O.A. and winning B Production is Ike in the AMX.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2013, 01:13:13 AM »

That is Ike Knupp in the TEAM (Technical Employees of American Motors) AMX.    A factory basement effort headed up by Jim Alexander and Knupp.  Car was run in 69 and I believe won the Cen-Div that year.  They went to Daytona for the runoffs, and I've read that Knupp was leading Alan Barker when something broke.   There is a Corvette book (about the L-88??) where Delorenzo or Thompson  mentions Knupp out-qualifying all of the BP Vettes and many of the AP cars.  This picture might be in that book....it looks slightly familiar.  Nice find, SMK!!!

klvn8r

PS--the car pictured on the SSAMX site is a different AMX than the one pictured above.  Knupp did enter a race or two driving that one....but the car in the pic with the Cobras is not it.  After speaking with Alexander many years ago, we determined that the original car was most likely lost. 

The "something that broke" was A Corvette just in front of Ike that he was about to pass for the win. Instead of locking the brakes to avoid it Ike downshifted and bent a valve or two. It slowed him enough that Barker passed him near the end and there went the overall National Championship.
  As to the original 60 car, according to a member of the Randall family of Randall AMC fame in Arizona, the former road racing AMX they own is the T.E.A.M car. I have not confirmed this as yet with any corroborating evidence.

S A
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klvn8r
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2013, 08:59:56 AM »

The TEAM car did eventually end up out at Randall, but in a discussion with Alexander about 15 yrs ago +/- he said that he and Phil Toney went out there looking for it, and were told that it got crushed... Cry  As for the the slower Vette and bent valve....I know I've seen/heard that story before, just can't seem to remember where or who....  Probably one of the AMC books from the 80's.   

I just hope that a "clone" doesn't pop up and claim to be 'the one'.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2013, 03:01:59 PM »

Yep, in books but I've seen the mention ( though probably quoting the book ) on a website or two of the Corvette story. The book, and I would assume their reputation was pretty impeccable considering the contributing authors and interviewees that were found listed in each volume and A Q's association with the Princeton Institute for Historic Research, was Automobile Quarterly, First Quarter 1981, Volume XIX, Number 1, pg 22 - 'Change Of An Image: Behind The Scenes At Amc With The Amx And The Javelin', by Robert C. Ackerson.
  The TEAM car in question I pointedly asked the Randall grandson to confirm was in their possession about a year past. A few weeks after I posed the question I prodded him again and he told me that he had checked with his family ( father?, uncle, grandfather?- I know a couple of the Randalls have died ) and that it was the TEAM AMX for sure. The only thing left to do is to get all the known identifying facts about the TEAM car and go out there and check if they will allow it. I do know that they have pics of the car when they owned it early on and the driver's rear quarter still had the sponsorship lettering on it that vintage pics show on the car when it raced as the TEAM AMX. Check out the pics on the AMC Forum ( Bill D's site ) and elsewhere. If th car they own now is the car they owned then it is the TEAM AMX. Short of scraping off layers of paint there have to be other identifiers as to the car's provenance.

S A
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SMKZ28
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2013, 06:00:48 PM »

Back in reply #14 Mike Scott (Group/7) mentioned a picture at Garage Blog.  This might be the one he was talking about.  It can be found here: http://thegarageblog.com/garage/more-vintage-racing-porn-amx/  along with several comments about the car and the picture.  I found it while searching for something else.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2013, 01:09:48 AM »

That's a Canadian sponsored AMX. I'll see if I can find the one color photo of it.


S A
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S A Dunbar
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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2013, 01:22:49 PM »

Photo from the pace lap of the 1967 Road America June Sprints.  I believe that's Ike Knupp on the outside of the fourth row.  And my father on the outside of the 5th row in his red/white 1963 Corvette.
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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2013, 01:37:53 PM »

There was a Dwight Knupp from Southfield, MI who ran a Barracuda in '67, car #64. Possible relative of Ike Knupp? I suspect the car at RA was Dwight's car.
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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2013, 04:59:15 PM »

There was a Dwight Knupp from Southfield, MI who ran a Barracuda in '67, car #64. Possible relative of Ike Knupp? I suspect the car at RA was Dwight's car.

Yes, Jon, I'm sure you are correct....Dwight Knupp.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2013, 08:14:03 PM »

Dwight is Ike.

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klvn8r
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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2013, 09:23:38 PM »

Yes, Dwight 'Ike' Knupp.....he was an electronics guy at Chrysler before AMC brought him on board.  His son is an active racer as well.

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2013, 01:08:49 AM »

The Canuk AMX from the black and white Mosport photo.


Steve


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klvn8r
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« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2013, 12:32:07 PM »

Neat picture.  In this one, the fenders haven't been opened up....hmmm....is it an early pic?  Also, no front bumper.  SCCA rules stated that bumpers that weren't part of the bodywork were removable.  But wow, what they gained in weight loss, they probably lost in aero.  :^)

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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »

shadow ahead, that's the same picture I found, but you beat me to it ! I belong to the canadian motorsport history group forum. I will try and see maybe some one there has something related to the AMX. it's funny how there seems to be little info on some cars. like I said to smkz28, I wish I had taken pictures of everything in the paddock ! but when your 16 or 17 you don't think that way. that someday these will be important cars.

   mike group/7
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2013, 09:13:43 PM »

Yeah, found this photo awhile back and then refound it again! We know everything when we are 16 and 17, so who needs to take pictures? Cheesy

Steve
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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2013, 10:09:59 PM »

Here is the 69 AMX that ran Sebring in 1970. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/6761393921/in/set-72157629028742651

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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2013, 12:37:00 AM »

Mike Scott from Canada sent me these two pictures which were taken by his friend Adam Papp. They are of the
Bannerman sponsored AMX driven by Bud Tucker. They were both taken at Mosport. Adam thinks the b&w one
is from '69 and the color one is from '71.


Adam Papp photo


Adam Papp photo
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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2013, 10:46:34 AM »

Jon, I'd like to say I am grateful, and I hope I speak for other road race aficionados that len toward the esoteric that not only is your site a splendid example of quality articles, pictures, and associations working together to provide a glimpse,but also sometimes gives a sense of the experience of a bygone time in American auto competition.
  The Mosport pics are an example of the rich friendships you must certainly enjoy and it is exciting to be a member here and to stumble upon these treasures pictorial and the implicit relations behind the scenes. Thank you, Sir.

Steve
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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2013, 02:26:04 PM »

Steve, I appreciate the kind words. Thank you. This forum is meant to pay tribute to a very special bygone era, to share stories
and information from that time, and to "share the wealth" with others so they might come to enjoy it like we have. There are
things that I have learned by sharing my stuff that I would have never known if I had kept it all stashed away for just my own
personal enjoyment. I have had numerous people tell me the same thing so that has made it a rewarding experience.
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2013, 02:57:23 PM »

+1 on steve's comment above ! and thank you jon for posting.

  mike group/7
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2013, 05:23:57 PM »

I also agree.  Thanks for the inclusion of this 'not Camaro' stuff.   Its hard to admit it this but, I just saw two AMX pictures that I have NEVER previously seen, and they were on the Camaro T/A website.  Way to go, guys!!!

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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2013, 07:59:43 PM »

Thanks, guys. Here are two more Adam Papp photos from Mosport in 1971. Nice, picturesque setting for a racetrack.
The Camaro seen in the photos was driven by Peter Wiseman for Fossman Racing and it had Castrol GTX sponsorship.


Adam Papp photo


Adam Papp photo
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« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2013, 12:24:26 AM »

Two more Adam Papp photos of the AMX. These are from 1969.


Adam Papp photo


Adam Papp photo
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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 03:52:23 AM »

I'd like to come back to the Mosport AMX and discuss afew things. But first, while I have it in mind, check out this '95 Hemmings article: http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2007/06/01/hmn_feature17.html
Look at the lead picture with the #6 RR AMX as well as the text near the bottom of the article mentioning it. Note the tire sponsor on the rear quarter panel in the photo. Also the red rear bumper. Later today sometime I'll post a photo I have for comparison.

 Steve
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« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2013, 09:54:22 AM »

Steve, I fixed your link which was not working.
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« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2013, 08:58:29 PM »

Thanks, Jon.
Check out the photo below and look at the tire sponsor. Check that out against the Hemmings article photo. Also look at the driver mirror and the red rear bumper:



Steve
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« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2013, 09:23:01 PM »

steve & klvn8tr, glad you are enjoying adam papp's photos, your welcome to post them on AMC threads if your on them. just credit adam for the pics. steve didn't mean to hijack the thread away from your original search for '70 AMX's ! adam also sent me two shots of gord dewars javelin at mosport aprox. 1969. if either of you are  your interested I can send them. very kind of jon to allow a thread on american motors race cars on a camaro site !

  mike group/7 in ontario canada
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« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2013, 09:35:25 PM »

indeed it is most kind of Jon. Ironic that on sites other than ones singlemindedly devoted to AMC's I've often found information and attitudes that reaffirm my faith in fellow mankind.
  You are by no means hijacking this thread. Though I started out looking for '70 racing AMX's look at pictures and history that cropped up in different but related directions! Yes, I would be most interested in any and all photos you are privvy to, includeing Javelins. Being a photographer myself, it is natural to give credit to the source of photos from other contributors. The T.E.A.M photo, for example was taken in 1969 by a member of one of the AMC boards. I simply cleaned that photo up so that the tire sponsor was clear. After searching I'm sure I can find his name.
   Regarding these black and white Mosport photos I feel like an investigator pulling the up the clues and in the middle of the hunt. Circling back to the comment about devoting a thread to AMC's on a Camaro site,  an interesting bit of Camaro related background is, my first two muscle cars were both '69 Z-28's.


Steve
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« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2013, 11:15:51 PM »

I beleive the pic of the T.E.A.M AMX was taken by Ron Ackerman, a crew chief on the #83 T A Mustang. I will have to confirm that.
 I hit paydirt on one of the AMC sites- these pics are from Cory Randall, grandson in the Randall Racing empire. the next two phtos are back to back and pretty well confirm the genesis from employee run and owned TEAM AMX to Randall owned and raced in the TEAM paint scheme initially, and then in the signature angled vertical hashmark Randall theme:




In looking at other photos of other Randall race cars ( Javelin ) in the Randall pics it is becoming evident that the TEAM car was already in Randall ownership with the Stauffer Tire sponsorship color photo I provided from Ron.

Steve
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« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2013, 11:28:55 PM »

Steve, the main part of the roll cage does not appear to be of the same design between the two photos.
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« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2013, 11:32:13 PM »

Yes, it has been expanded upon. If you look closely you'll see the original triangulated tubes coming together under the new oval outer hoop. The car is really starting to look beat by '72? in the later photo.

Steve
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« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2013, 11:42:27 PM »

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/randallracing1710/media/CopyofRandallAmericanRacing1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=33

The two upper photos show the car in transition into the Randall fold. The left upper photo shows one of the Randalls in the racing suit. The right photo with Arizona desert in the background, also shows the number '8' on the door, instead of 6. It looks like all sponsorship decals have been removed.

As a point of interest, look closely at the b&w photos you first examined. In the top photo there is apiece of trim that forms the bottom of the grill surround at the top of the bumper. Now, when you examine the lower photo, what do you see at the very top of the bumper? Stock chrome AMX bumpers, with the exception of the factory "Big Bad" series cars with body color bumpers, had no trim piece on the bumper. Hence, no series of holes drilled in the top for the trim pice to attach to with backing pins and body speed washer/nuts.

Finally, look at preceeding and following pages related to the above hyperlink. The evidence is pretty compelling.

Steve
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« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2013, 11:37:14 AM »

The hope here is that in the zest for showing the transformation of the TEAM car into the Randall car and the possibility that it still exists, that the momentum behind the Mosport AMX quest hasn't died. Sad


Gentlemen? Gentlemen? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

Steve
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« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2013, 02:28:43 PM »

steve, interesting story on the randall car. I don't think the momentum with the mosport car has died. back in posts 12-15 on this thread, robert barg, who posts as "oldtransamdriver" talked about the tucker AMX. there were three different names bob, bud & gary, mentioned by him. I'm afraid to say I got a bit mixed up with it all ! maybe robert could clarify. robert I think also posts on the canadian motorsport history group. maybe he could inquire there. where the bannerman AMX, if it still exists ? is today. who knows.
  P:S..steve do you have any info about the "von-piranha" AMX run by ron hunter from colorado about 1969. I found two pictures somewhere, the car has a lot of scoops, but no cage. maybe it was only a slalom car ?

   mike group/7
 
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« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2013, 07:31:18 PM »

Mike, that car which was the basis for small run of cars outfitted with the "kit" of scoops has asmattering of info available between books and the 'net. Can I see the pics you have? In the interim I'll shake the bushes and see what drops down.

Steve
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« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2013, 12:23:49 AM »

Mike, you referred to a Bob Tucker racing for Bannerman Motors.  Most of us knew him as Bud.  Not sure of his real first name but can find out.  Gary Grant is his son "The Garage Blog".

Robert Barg
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« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2013, 12:52:39 AM »

Mike,
 So far I found this:http://www.amx-perience.com/AMX_owners_101-110.php
 and go down to the fifth entry.

 Steve
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« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2013, 02:25:58 AM »

http://rmvr.com/assets/documents/ta2008-program.pdf - panels 7 & 9 will be of particular interest, Mike.


Steve
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« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2013, 06:44:20 PM »

Well, I'm sitting here in the hospital with a new hip, so I'll try to catch up a bit and interject.  After the 69 season, the TEAM car was sold and raced  by Brad Booker (or Brooker, not sure of spelling) for most of the year.  I recall something about Brooker saying "....the racecar had to go, or the wife was going to go....car lost."  And I'm pretty sure that he sold it to Randall.  I've got a pic of it at Green Valley Raceway in the pics, sporting No. 6 (not 60, like Knupp had).  I also recall Alexander telling me that Randall had a few racecars out there, but that they weren't the TEAM car.  Also, the TEAM car only had a 4 point bar, no 'cage'.   We were trying to keep it light.  (scary that some BB Vettes were the same way!)  Those later Randall pics also have some pretty good flares up front.

John, please feel free to email me any AMC stuff, I got lots of it.  Also, we might need to start a thread on the Bob Hennig Javelin....it ran IMSA and ASedan.  Lots of missing info on that car, and I have a few ideas about it.

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« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2013, 10:32:08 AM »

You know what they say about what you hear. Believe only half of what you see. So they say. I know which half I can see, unique details, which are there, do not lie. The two cars above are the same TEAM car. I did not come out of the blue and conclude this. This has culminated after years. And other photos. Many photos. And experience.

There is only one way to figure out if Randall still has the car or if they don't. I'm going out there. Would you like to join me?

S A

ps  after you have recovered -  get well first

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« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2013, 11:17:12 AM »

Wow. That was uncivil. Craig, everyone, my apologies. At the end of the day these are just pictures and what we think, well, what we think are ideas. Ideas shoudn't be shut down by closed minds. Like my own. Craig, I mean it, get well. Respect is respect and I didn't exhibit any in my comments above.

Steve
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« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2013, 08:00:48 PM »

klvn8r, hope you are back on your pins soon ! you mentioned in one of your posts about the hennig javelin, I found a number of photos I think on the VIR site, four in colour, in three of which it appears bronze or copper, and one where it is red, white and blue, top to bottom. and two in b&w.you most likely know them. if not I could send them to you. was this a kaplan built car ? it looks really clean.

  mike in canada
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« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2013, 12:00:23 PM »

Yes, I hope your recovery goes smoothly Craig.

As for the Randall AMX, I see some things that are compelling and some things that seem to warrant a little more research. To go purely off pictures and not look at the car in person or talk to the current owners seems like a lost opportunity to really nail things down. That's my take on it. I do want things to stay civil here so if everyone could respect that, it would be greatly appreciated.
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« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2013, 01:28:13 PM »

Came home yesterday.....just beating the big ice storm.  Mid 20s now and ice everywhere....wife and kids home too, so its kinda busy. 
As for the AMX's, the only one of these that I know anything about, is the TEAM car, because I spent some time with Jim Alexander while at an AMO National Convention.  He was interested in talking with me as I vintage race a 68 AMX, and he was helping a buddy run an MG in some vintage events as well.   I'm just pointing out what Alexander told me PERSONALLY, its not third-hand information to me.....but I can see how it is questionable from another perspective.  When Jim said that he and Phil Toney went out there LOOKING for the car and it was reported to them "it must be gone/crushed..."   Well, that's my take on it.  Jim and Phil were two of the lead men on the whole project, and I would assume to be the most familiar with the car and its construction.  If Randall did keep it for awhile after getting it from Brooker, I can see it receiving updates etc, and that would be great.  I'd love to see it saved and restored to TEAM status, trust me, there's not alot of 'historic' AMC stuff out there, and what is still out there, well, I have some opinions on some of these cars too.  Unfortunately, these hi$toric car$ have become very desirable, so sometimes having a 'better story' makes a car more pricey.  I think you know what I'm trying to say.... (On a side note, I think its funny that Camaro and Mustang stuff has become so 'valuable' that AMCs have suddenly attained a level of 'cool' that didn't exist 15 years ago...)    Steve, if you do happen to make it out to Randall, I'd love to hear and see what you uncover.  I think there are probably SEVERAL treasures of AMC loot out there.  If you do determine that it is the car and can buy it, please restore it to its 1969 glory and RACE it!

PS--now that I'm home, I'll try to look at the pics more closely on a real screen, not a silly little phone.  I think you might have some valid points here...  As for the Canada cars, I'd love to hear more....my AMX came out of White Rock, B.C.

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« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2013, 05:00:53 PM »

I'm glad Jon and Craig weighed in today. Something has really been up my rear lately and I apologize for looking at things the way I have as of late. Craig, I'm sorry about the things I've assumed about you. I'm still working on my rough around the edges quirks that i allow to pop up still sometimes.

Jon, I apologize to you as well for acting like a three year old. 12 is fine, that is my general maturity level ( according to my wife - and I gleefully agree ) but three is a little retrograde, even for me.

Mike, I hope you keep asking questions, I am doing what I can regarding your questions and I imagine Craig or Javelin GT ( Adam?) can add to things Kaplan.


This stuff is important to get right. I do agree that what happened to the TEAM car needs ascertaining. I have my reasons and background for why I state and still state that the two b&w photos of the car known as the TEAM AMX are two photos of the same car separated by modifications and probably three years.


If I get the invite, the first items I'll check will be inspection stamps on the main roll bar uprights, if the original exists. The next thing will be to look at key chassis areas, where, even if stripping is throroughly done, original paint remants remain. According to James Alexander, the TEAM car started out as a body in white. Only one other period AMX has a similar background, that I am aware of, and that is the Bruce Morehead ( the "Sebring" AMX ) two-seater. Cars like the Bannerman Express are question marks in that regard.

If the car still exists and it is still equipped with some of the cosmetic markers that are unique to it in racing circles, such as the "Big Badesque" drilled front bumper ( the only road race two seater AMX that I ever saw with that chrome bumper strip and then raced from new), the way the hood fits above both front fenders, the X brace behind the grille, evidence of the removed central vertical support bar in front of the grille( giving the TEAM car in original photos a Javelin look ) the location and style of the hood pins, the factoryesque instrument panel with twin vents up top, evidence that a lightened passenger seat was mounted at one time, the prominent factory style torque links, and the probable, if it is assigned, 290, 4-speed VIN among other things that are unique, such as the rear window straps and how far apart they are, then alot of questions and differing perspectives can be put to bed.


SA



 Ps  If it is there, and it's "the one", if they are willing, then we'll explore the possibility of changing ownership. Those are big "ifs". First things first.
     Finding it.
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« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2013, 01:27:44 AM »

The guy who just sold the 68 camaro race car on ebay, also has a 69 AMX roller listed on ebay.

Robert Barg
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« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2013, 01:48:50 AM »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMC-AMX-AMX-AMX-ROLLER-SUPER-SOLID-BODY-KEPT-INSIDE-LAST-25-YRS-/221330306645?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3388507655&item=221330306645&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Ebay seller: mb-diesels
VIN: A9M397X170886
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« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2013, 03:12:06 AM »

I'd like to know the story behind the white engine bay on the early production '69. That Camaro looked mighty tempting.

Steve
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« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2013, 11:47:35 AM »

steve, thanks for your replies on questions to do with the dewar javelin, and the hunter pirahna AMX. my friend adam from whom the javelin & bannerman AMX photos came from, has many more images that he will slowly digitize. something to look forward to !

   mike group/7
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« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2013, 11:49:57 AM »

That roller AMX could be pretty nice with a '69 Z28 drivetrain. Smiley
(don't shoot me..  I'm just biased.. ) Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2013, 02:01:22 PM »

Let's look at it this way. That Z-28 that sold on Ebay would have been that much more nice with an AMC 343, T-10, and AMC 20 rear installed. Wink I'm all for equality. Grin

Steve
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« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2013, 02:06:52 PM »

steve, thanks for your replies on questions to do with the dewar javelin, and the hunter pirahna AMX. my friend adam from whom the javelin & bannerman AMX photos came from, has many more images that he will slowly digitize. something to look forward to !

   mike group/7

My pleasure. When it comes to the Javelin you asked about, I think Craig should add what he knows because I think that he's on to something with a possible 3rd Kaplan Javelin. If Adam ( Javelin GT ) could get on this too we might really find some fascinating stuff because he's talked with both Kaplan and Martin if my memory is correct.

Steve
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« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »

I'd like to know the story behind the white engine bay on the early production '69. That Camaro looked mighty tempting.

Steve

I see now why the bay is white. The whole car was white at one point. It looks pretty decent and it's a fairly well appointed one. It's a Go-Pac model:
- 343 4V or 390 4V Engine
- Power front disc brakes
- Special-duty handling package
- Twin-Grip rear axle differential
- Heavy-duty engine cooling system
- Red-line Polyglass tires and 6 inch rim wheels
- Over-the-top Racing Stripe

Interesting that it has what looks like manual steering and though the driver mirror is remote it doesn't look like there was a passenger mirror so this probably does not have the optional "visibility group". It does have power brakes though. And the inflatable spare option. The Matador Red exterior/charcoal interior is a desireable combination. This is an early '69, hence the aftermarket Competition Plus Hurst shifter arm in the trunk.

Steve
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« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2013, 12:18:18 AM »

I had wondered if it might have been white originally. Thanks for the rundown of how it was originally equipped. Looks to be a good, solid car.

I think that Kaplan for sure made at least three cars in '69 because I believe Don White's car that ran in Nascar GT was a Kaplan-built car.
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« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2013, 10:00:46 AM »

The Canuk AMX from the black and white Mosport photo.


Steve




This photo was taken by Paul Gulde at Mosport in 1969.
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« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2013, 10:05:34 AM »

First off, thanks to Bob Barg for telling me about this thread!

Mike in Canada, thanks for posting Adam's pics of Bud's AMX, as these are new ones to me! As Bob mentioned, there are very few pictures of my Dad's car in action. He will love seeing these new ones.

I believe his car does still exist, but is in storage at the back of a shop somewhere in Ontario. The guy who owns it is a collector who keeps very quiet about it and refuses to talk with me because he knows I would love to own the car. One day perhaps it will see the light again!

Bud Tucker and Bob Tucker are two different people, who are unrelated. I have no knowledge of Bob.
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« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2013, 10:15:55 AM »

Looking more closely at these pics, they actually open up some questions. Bud ran the car in 1969 only, and I believe it always ran #31. In the pics that Adam says are from 1971, the car wears #159.

The story I have heard is that the car sat in Bannerman's shop during the 1970 season. In 71 it was apparently run by someone else, but nobody seems to remember who. Following the 71 season, the car was relegated to the lot behind the dealership and at some point the race prepped 390 found its way into a tech's street car. It would be interesting to learn more about the 71 season.
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« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2013, 10:36:47 AM »

I know this is thread is mostly about AMX's but have any of you knowledgable AMC guys seen this cool old ad?  While it shows Javelins it does mention the "HOT" AMX.  I found it while searching for something else.  It was posted by someone named 2drpost" on a thread about vintage Canadian auto ads here: http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t53167695/vintage-auto-ads/

There are some pretty cool ads featuring Camaros as well.
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« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2013, 11:11:37 AM »

More Paul Gulde images of my Dad - this time at Harewood Acres.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegarage/11271899065" title="AMX Porn by Gary Grant, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3798/11271899065_a1fec69921_z.jpg" width="640" height="333" alt="AMX Porn">[/url]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegarage/11271898425" title="AMX Porn by Gary Grant, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5500/11271898425_b7831cce66.jpg" width="333" height="500" alt="AMX Porn">[/url]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegarage/11271964264" title="AMX Porn by Gary Grant, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/11271964264_37d28ba0ab.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="AMX Porn">[/url]
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« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2013, 12:14:41 PM »

This is awesome!  Thanks, Mike, for starting the… wait for it…Express of ideas and photos that led to Robert inviting Grant. Grant, thanks for coming over.

Steve
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« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2013, 12:28:23 PM »

I know this is thread is mostly about AMX's but have any of you knowledgable AMC guys seen this cool old ad?  While it shows Javelins it does mention the "HOT" AMX.  I found it while searching for something else.  It was posted by someone named 2drpost" on a thread about vintage Canadian auto ads here: http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t53167695/vintage-auto-ads/

There are some pretty cool ads featuring Camaros as well.

I've never seen that ad. It is cool. If his site isn't defunct, a fellow known as Arctic Boy would love to include that in with his AMC memorabilia.
The interesting car I see in the ad drawings is the one to the left of, and directly below, The Doug's Header's funny car Javelin. It looks like a cross between a Camaro and a '70 AMX or '71 Javelin.
   It is also interesting that dealer is in Brampton, Ontario. That was the location of a major AMC factory and engine plant if recall is accurate.

T S
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« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2013, 12:37:21 PM »

I had wondered if it might have been white originally. Thanks for the rundown of how it was originally equipped. Looks to be a good, solid car.

I think that Kaplan for sure made at least three cars in '69 because I believe Don White's car that ran in Nascar GT was a Kaplan-built car.

True, but that car was set-up way different than the TA cars. Craig could probably add to that. There is a Redliner newsletter put out by AMC back in the day that a Mr. Thomas Benvie, SS/AMX historian, from Massachusetts posted on an AMC site that mentions the RKE ( Ronnie Kaplan Engineering/ Inc.) running a three car team in '69. Unfortunately it looks, so far, that the #33 Javelin, a '68 car, might be that third car. I was hoping there was comfirmation that the Dewar car was that third car. More research is necessary.

Steve
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« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2013, 03:58:35 PM »

I was told years ago that Gordon Dewar's Javelin from '69 was a Kaplan built car but I have not looked closely enough at it to see if it was constructed in the same fashion as the RKE cars.
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« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2013, 06:16:40 PM »

This is awesome!  Thanks, Mike, for starting the… wait for it…Express of ideas and photos that led to Robert inviting Grant. Grant, thanks for coming over.

Steve

Excuse me, I didn't notice that it is Gary Grant, not just Grant.

Steve
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« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2013, 08:58:35 PM »

I don't have any of my books or pictures handy, but I don't think that I ever came up with a 100% idea on the Don White #2 car.  Obviously, he/it didn't run, as #2 was Ford/Revson, right???  Last summer, my brother and I spent several hours with Ronnie Kaplan, and I think we even overwhelmed him with all of our info and pictures.    Back in the day, magazine articles etc listed 'customer cars' and such at RKE....too bad that was over 40 years ago.   I'll say this, that Dewar Javelin has rear flares that look an awful lot like RKE 69 T/A Javelin.  And I agree with Steve....the 'third' 69 team car was one of the leftover 68 cars (Follmers or Revsons).

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« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2013, 12:25:16 PM »

...a friend of mine, Adam Tarr, sent me this link on SCCA AMX racing....I currently own the #66 Bill Ackerman car from the St. Louis area: http://ssamx.com/1968_scca_bp_AMX.htm  The only information that I have on the car is the information that I got from the previous owners.  If anyone has any history, pictures or documentation on the car, I would greatly appreciate it...thanks Mike
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« Reply #100 on: December 10, 2013, 03:20:43 PM »

Mike, thank you signing up for our forum. It is always a pleasure to learn more about these cars from that great era of the late '60s and early '70s and a privilege to own one of them as well.
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« Reply #101 on: December 10, 2013, 11:10:58 PM »

...a friend of mine, Adam Tarr, sent me this link on SCCA AMX racing....I currently own the #66 Bill Ackerman car from the St. Louis area: http://ssamx.com/1968_scca_bp_AMX.htm  The only information that I have on the car is the information that I got from the previous owners.  If anyone has any history, pictures or documentation on the car, I would greatly appreciate it...thanks Mike

Hello, Mike. Welcome aboard. I'm currently working behind the scenes on the request you posted for more information on the 66 AMX. When I get some solid feedback from the source(s) I'm going through I'll post here or hook you up with the information.

Steve
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« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2013, 12:37:51 AM »

Ok, I need some help from some of the other guys here. I've tracked down more information on the Dewar Javelin. Below is a picture of it attributed to St. Jovite, the week before Watkins Glen in '69. Now, here's where your assistance comes into play,  the same car can't be 2 cars at the same place at the same time. So, some better accounting than Racing Sportscars posts must be available. If it is not, then the # 47 Dewar car is the #4 Kaplan car in JNO Racing Enterprises Ltd.livery but is the 4 car. Yet separate references to the car, such as where I got the photo:http://kzmotorsports.com/911L-Race-History-Overview.html- photo 15, the car is referred
to, naturally, as the #47 Dewar Javelin. Yet, when one goes here:http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/results/AMC/Javelin.html and one goes to the 1969 results the connundrum presents itself. Check out the entries for the St.Jovite race on August 3rd of 1969 and then check out the entries listed for the Watkins Glen race on August 8th. See the problem? The discrepancy needs deconfliction.

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« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2013, 09:44:32 AM »

Steve, that picture you posted is not from St. Jovite, it is from Watkins Glen. The cars in the back half of the photo are crossing over the marked grid locations and the start/finish line and the cars in the front are going through the first bend. Definitely Watkins Glen. Gordon Dewar did not race at the '69 St. Jovite race, for some reason. At Watkins Glen, Ron Grable was driving the #4 RKE Javelin because the #3 Javelin had been heavily damaged in the 8-car pile up the weekend before at St. Jovite. John Martin had broken his arm in a garage accident and Lothar Motschenbacher was not a favorite of Ronnie Kaplan's. Hence, Ron Grable made the move from the #3 to the #4.
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« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2013, 02:10:00 PM »

Awesome. That narrows down the potential confusion as well as pinpointing that the number 4 car and the number 47 cars cannot be one and the same at the same race. The number 4 car is out of the picture, and the number 3 car is separate and distinct from the number 47 car at the same race. Now, finding a photo of both the #'s 55 or 33 at this race will help. Then it is left up to contacting Dewar ( is he still alive? ) or someone else familiar with JNO Racing Enterprises Ltd.which was described as being in a converted grocery store location in Hull( across from Ottawa ) Canada at the time (1971) by photographer ( then - Ottawa Baby Photographers ), Allan De La Plante.

Steve
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« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2013, 02:20:18 PM »

Ok, I need some help from some of the other guys here. I've tracked down more information on the Dewar Javelin. Below is a picture of it attributed to St. Jovite, the week before Watkins Glen in '69. Now, here's where your assistance comes into play,  the same car can't be 2 cars at the same place at the same time. So, some better accounting than Racing Sportscars posts must be available. If it is not, then the # 47 Dewar car is the #4 Kaplan car in JNO Racing Enterprises Ltd.livery but is the 4 car. Yet separate references to the car, such as where I got the photo:http://kzmotorsports.com/911L-Race-History-Overview.html- photo 15, the car is referred
to, naturally, as the #47 Dewar Javelin. Yet, when one goes here:http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/results/AMC/Javelin.html and one goes to the 1969 results the connundrum presents itself. Check out the entries for the St.Jovite race on August 3rd of 1969 and then check out the entries listed for the Watkins Glen race on August 8th. See the problem? The discrepancy needs deconfliction.

Shadow Ahead,

The picture you posted of the Javelin and Porsche looks to have been one taken at the 1969 Watkins Glen Trans Am as Jon has mentioned.  It appears to have been taken by Dave Friedman and it is picture #72 of the Dave Friedman Collection at The Henry Ford: http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/magnify_popup.pl?imageID=178368&staticImage=C&ckon=image&alt=0

If you have not seen them, there are lots of other pictures of this particular Javelin as well as the others that participated in the race (including #55).  See all of the pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/sets/72157632997627147/   or   here if you want to purchase any: http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/collection.pl?productTypeID=62&collectionID=3110&pgNumber=1&seeAllImages=1&sortBy=soldQty  There are some pictures of a supporting sports car race as well so don't be confused by the Triumphs and Corvairs in some of the pictures.

Larger and clearer versions of the pictures can be seen here:

1) (picture #72) http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/magnify_popup.pl?imageID=178368&staticImage=C&ckon=image&alt=0
2) (picture #121) http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/magnify_popup.pl?imageID=178417&staticImage=C&ckon=image&alt=0
3) (picture #221) http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/magnify_popup.pl?imageID=178517&staticImage=C&ckon=image&alt=0
4) (picture #204) http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/magnify_popup.pl?imageID=178500&staticImage=C&ckon=image&alt=0

 
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« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2013, 03:37:50 PM »

Thanks! This is some help and then some. Need to get a copy of the Friedman book. Maybe I can buy a good used copy.

   It looks as though starting with WG that the 10 car which used to be the 33 car now belonged to Rocky Mountain Racing and I do believe the 10 and 33 car pics have been compared and discussed before. In addition, the #3 '68 Revson car blurb on Fantasy Junction -http://fantasyjunction.com/cars/773-AMC-Javelin%20Trans-Am-V8 and in other discussions elsewhere indicate that the #3 which sold a few years back in its original '68 livery lists the # 3, Tullius, Hunter, 3 history. Russo & Steele recently auctioning the car:http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1968-AMC-Javelin-Trans-Am/1462 descrribes the 33/Tullius relation and 10/Hunter relationship.
   
So, what remains yet is tracing the beginnings of the # 47 car. Klvnr8r or his brother may shine abeacon on that if one of them can come up with the article that apparently shows the 3 Kaplan cars in his shop pre or early '69 season. Was the 3rd car a body in white? Does it have a domed hood, or at least, signature fender bulges? Stay tuned erstwhile TA fans, let the nail biting begin... Grin

 S A
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« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2013, 03:44:49 PM »

Thanks! This is some help and then some. Need to get a copy of the Friedman book. Maybe I can buy a good used copy.

   It looks as though starting with WG that the 10 car which used to be the 33 car now belonged to Rocky Mountain Racing and I do believe the 10 and 33 car pics have been compared and discussed before. In addition, the #3 '68 Revson car blurb on Fantasy Junction -http://fantasyjunction.com/cars/773-AMC-Javelin%20Trans-Am-V8 and in other discussions elsewhere indicate that the #3 which sold a few years back in its original '68 livery lists the # 3, Tullius, Hunter, 3 history. Russo & Steele recently auctioning the car:http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1968-AMC-Javelin-Trans-Am/1462 descrribes the 33/Tullius relation and 10/Hunter relationship.
   
So, what remains yet is tracing the beginnings of the # 47 car. Klvnr8r or his brother may shine abeacon on that if one of them can come up with the article that apparently shows the 3 Kaplan cars in his shop pre or early '69 season. Was the 3rd car a body in white? Does it have a domed hood, or at least, signature fender bulges? Stay tuned erstwhile TA fans, let the nail biting begin... Grin

 S A

Your welcome.  The book of his Trans Am photos only contains a fraction of the photos that The Henry Ford has in its Archival Dave Friedman Collection.  They hold most, if not all of the pictures he took back in the 60s/70s.  In addition, copies of that book are really expensive now. I have seen them close to $300 on ebay.

See all of the pictures in the Dave Friedman Collection here: http://thehenryford.artehouse.com/perl/collection.pl?collectionID=2582&productTypeID=62&ckon=leftNav&sessionID=99d52782b1cd1eb8ecba3f5e6fa28369  Just scroll down and notice all the races he attended listed on the left side.  They have posted some of the collection on their Flickr site but not all of them.  See the ones they have posted here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/sets/

He attended many Trans Am races during 1966-1972 so you can find several pictures of '68, '69, '70, '71, and '72 Javelins you might never have seen before
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« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2013, 04:08:57 PM »

Most if not all of the Trans-Am photos in the "Dave Friedman Collection" were not taken by Dave but rather by "Jack Brady & Associates". Dave bought that collection years ago and some other collections as well and put them together in what is called the "Dave Friedman Collection". Dave was primarily the photographer for Shelby American when they were still building cars in the LA area.
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« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2013, 04:32:41 PM »

Most if not all of the Trans-Am photos in the "Dave Friedman Collection" were not taken by Dave but rather by "Jack Brady & Associates". Dave bought that collection years ago and some other collections as well and put them together in what is called the "Dave Friedman Collection". Dave was primarily the photographer for Shelby American when they were still building cars in the LA area.

Thanks Jon.  I was wondering how that worked because there are always several shots from different angles of the same point in the race.  I figured there were multiple different photographers but didn't know the whole story.  Still a great archival resource for those who have not seen it.
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« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2013, 04:48:50 PM »

I am not sure what the big question concerning the Javelin is but here is what I know.

After the 1968 season, the number 3 car was retained by Kaplan for testing and was repainted with red, white and blue stripes. In 1969, the car was held over for the Michigan race and was driven by Bob Tullius to a 4th place finish at Michigan. The car was then sold to the Rocky Mountain race group and driven for the rest of the season by privateer Ron Hunter as the #10 car.

So all 4 1968 Javelins were at Michigan.  There were only 3 Javelins at the 1969 Watkins Glen Race.  A Kaplan Javelin, Ted Roberts, and Gordon Dewar.  http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/race.php?raceid=9334

#10 Javelin was Ron Hunter
http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/racelist2.php?uniqid=5266

#33 Javelin was Bob Tullius
http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/racelist2.php?uniqid=426

#47 Javelin was Gordon Dewar
http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/racelist2.php?uniqid=12340

#55 Javelin was Ted Roberts  
http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/racelist2.php?uniqid=12303
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« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2013, 05:11:26 PM »

Here is the scoop on Gordon Dewar.  He raced his Javelin with the "Quebec Region Championship Alitalia Class C".  

Not sure how many races he ran or what but that was his main race group back then.  Must have dropped down out of Canada for the Watkins Glen race.

It also looks like he was a driver for JNO Racing up in Canada.  So they probably owned the car.
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« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2013, 06:39:37 PM »

So all 4 1968 Javelins were at Michigan.

I count it as two '68 Javelins and two '69 Javelins at Michigan.

#55 Ted Roberts/Dick Guldstrand '68 Javelin = ex-George Follmer #4 car from '68?

#33 Bob Tullius '68 Javelin = ex-Peter Revson #3 car from '68? (heavily damaged at St Jovite)

#3 Ron Grable '69 = new car

#4 John Martin '69 = new car
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« Reply #113 on: December 11, 2013, 07:01:05 PM »

You are correct.  Not sure what happened to my sentence when I was cutting and pasting.
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« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2013, 08:53:55 PM »

Was "heavy damage at St. Jovite" 1968 or 69?  Huh  I thought it was 69.....and that would mean that a "new" car got bent really hard.  Both 68 cars had a pretty good life.  Those 69 cars got beat up!

klvn8r
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« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2013, 10:29:01 PM »

Oops, you're right. I was getting ahead of myself. Thanks for catching that.
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« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2013, 10:39:27 PM »

I'd like to know a bit more about this car! It has all the traits of an RKE javelin?
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3177576/1969-amc-javelin/
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« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2013, 11:14:49 PM »

Check the rear end caps and decklid on the 4 car:http://www.carcraft.com/thehistoryof/trans_am_racing_early_years/photo_06.html

Compare to the b & w pick where you can just make out some dark spots on the rear quarter end caps and decklid:

Steve
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« Reply #118 on: December 12, 2013, 12:41:35 AM »

I'd like to know a bit more about this car! It has all the traits of an RKE javelin?
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3177576/1969-amc-javelin/

That car is enough different it could be the subject of its own thread. If you can log on there it would be helpful if they have more pics and documents. The paint looks like the '68 #25 RKE Javelin. Apart from the upper ball joint suspension it doesn't jump out as an RKE car given how stock it is.

S A
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« Reply #119 on: December 12, 2013, 02:36:05 AM »

The spoiler is very '69 Kaplanesque.
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« Reply #120 on: December 12, 2013, 07:06:07 AM »

I have seen more then one oddball Javelin with that bubble hood or flares and other "Kaplan" stuff.  He had to sell that stuff for AMC dealers when people came in and ordered it.  Maybe he just had his fiberglass guy send it direct.  But the rear deck lid spoilers could be ordered and I have seen one bubble hoop scoop in a brown Rambler bag with a part number on it.  So you could probably order that bubble hood too.

Just like the steel 290 rods that AMC never made yet I had 15 NOS ones in brown Rambler bags at one point.  They had to put part numbers on all of that stuff and then actually sell it if someone ordered it.

So I am guessing in 1969 if you wanted to run a Javelin in road racing events and went to the dealer for parts they pointed you to Kaplans race shop.  Its been a few years since I talked to John Martin but he told me they did work on customer stuff to keep the lights on since AMC was so stingy.

I also dont think each of the oddball Javelins were built from the ground up by Kaplans shop.

This car..... http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3177576/1969-amc-javelin/  was a base Javelin that was shipped to Australia with a container full of race parts from Kaplans shop.  For years people thought Kaplan built this car and shipped to Australia but in reality the parts were sent with a factory passenger car that was built in Australia with the parts in the container.

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« Reply #121 on: December 12, 2013, 07:16:21 AM »

Oddball Javelins with "Kaplan" parts.

http://www.catamountstadium.com/Images/DuBrul_Javelin_LooksatCar_FreePress_RPalmer.JPG

http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/p%201972%20Silverstone.html

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1970/Virginia-1970-04-26-021.jpg
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« Reply #122 on: December 12, 2013, 07:57:05 AM »

I see where this Dewar car still has the daisy wheels and the #4 RKE Javelin has minilites.  That Dewar car also has a hood pin in the middle of the hood which the RKE Javelins did not.  Although the 1969 NASCAR GT Javelin did have a middle hood pin.



Check the rear end caps and decklid on the 4 car:http://www.carcraft.com/thehistoryof/trans_am_racing_early_years/photo_06.html

Compare to the b & w pick where you can just make out some dark spots on the rear quarter end caps and decklid:

Steve
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« Reply #123 on: December 12, 2013, 10:15:20 AM »

Looks like there are some RKE Javelins with 3 hood pins.  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8328.0


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« Reply #124 on: December 12, 2013, 11:07:22 AM »

Let me outline my intent, to further knowledge and study, wherever that search leads. I greatly appreciate your joining the discussion, Adam.

Interesting Javelins.There are more articles on the one with the Kaplan hood and stock looking fenders and rear quarters. The 21 car has a more extensive background, which I may revisit later.

Regarding the G D #47, the wheels are what helped differentiate this car from the #4 car. Thank you. The flares are subtley different as well with flat lip extensions that are very noticeable compared to the 4 car and very close to the #3 car - http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8328.0 - color action pic near bottom of pg. 1.

The holes I drew attention to earlier on the #47 decklid and end caps are identical in placement and purpose to the nmbr(s) 3 and 4. They secure the decklid. http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8328.75 - b & w #3 car in pits being pushed excellent shot of decklid pin, lanyard, and attachment through rear quarter panel end cap.

 Thank you, Adam, yes it would appear that the TA cars have the third hood pin: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8328.0 Page 1, a third way down, b & w,
John Martin's car.

There is a Kaplan car, the number 2, which does not show up once the season is underway, but is in preseason photos, both in the Phi Beta Kaplan! article from Cars ( thanks Jon ) and the 1969 Trans Am season review - pg 7 - b & w small inset ' Inside the Cars of Trans Am'http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9860.90

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9860.0 pg 1 very first article mentions what American Motors will be doing for the upcoming '69 season. It discusses two team cars and two cars held in reserve. That is an interesting point. The Dewar car bears closer attention. Not necessarily as a potential reserve team car, though it is fascinating that Dewar comes down from Canada to provide just such a reserve function for the Watkins Glen race later in the year. The details of the car that jump out, to me, removes this car from oddball status to important customer car that contains all the "A" team markers- 3 pin fiberglass "huge" hood, wheel lips that closely match # 3's, the signature rear deckled security, no rear spoiler, quick fill fuel cell system through the deckled, and very similar front bumper license plate indent cover with the fastener holes in very similar locations.
    
 Makes one wonder, as money got tight, what happened to at least one reserve car…I think we can agree that the Dewar car appears to be a definite  candidate as a Kaplan customer car.

S A
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« Reply #125 on: December 12, 2013, 11:15:05 AM »

It appears also that in order, aside from finding Gordon Dewar himself, to find out more about the Dewar car that motorsport photos will be the means for seeing what configuration his 47 Javelin sported in Canada. Would Mr. Kaplan remember anything about the Dewar's car's origins?

S A
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« Reply #126 on: December 12, 2013, 12:03:42 PM »

There is this.....

"Gordon Dewar from Ontario always had very nice cars. Here, he’s driving his Trans-Am Camaro in 1970. He had previously owned a factory Javelin that he had bought from Ronnie Kaplan."

The History of Trans-Am Racing at Le Circuit Mont Tremblant in St-Jovite, Quebec from 1967 to 1971

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9067.5;wap2

and this.......

I am a Canadian motorsport history writer looking to document some of the Canadian pony cars- Gord Dewar ran the third Javelin at several Trans Am in the 1969 year and supposedly returned the car to AMC at year's end where it was given to Penske. Some of these Cars went to the Grand American series but I don't have a source for the results. I note that you have a fairly decent listing of the Javelins results. Is there a source online that I could use to track the Canadian cars??

http://www.sandcastlevi.com/exit/guestb16.htm
 

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« Reply #127 on: December 12, 2013, 12:23:21 PM »

According to ultmateracinghistory.com Dewar only raced one T/A race at the Glen in 69, with the Javelin - described as the Ronnie Kaplan Javelin.

Gordon passed away in the mid eighties if I remember.

Robert Barg

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« Reply #128 on: December 12, 2013, 12:44:57 PM »

Robert,
  Are you certain? I recall seeing reference to a Dewar award in 2005 in which the author mentions Gordon Dewar in recent ( to then in '05 ) times.

Steve
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« Reply #129 on: December 12, 2013, 12:49:06 PM »

Robert,
 I'm also thinking that the Canadian motorsport history writer from the Sandcastle email is referring to the other "Trans Am" appearances by Dewar when he means the Canadian series that Adam showed aresult from. It is pretty evident that the writer must be French Canadian given his English sentence structure. If so, perhaps this other Robert could be tracked down? Perhaps he hails from Montreal?

Steve
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« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2013, 12:49:32 PM »

In 1986 Dewar was shot in the face but wasnt fatal.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19861001&id=z-M0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=VvUIAAAAIBAJ&pg=1383,120652
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« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2013, 01:05:21 PM »

More Dewar/Kaplan connection.

The Ottawa Journal › 1971 › June › 11 June 1971 › Page 18

Gord Dewar of Ottawa given an excellent chance of finishing well in the race and of placing high in the" standings of the million dollar, 10-event Can-Am series. Dewar, is expected to do well in the March 707 that Chris Amon drove in the lat- ter part of the 1970 series. Sponsored by Travelmate Motor Homes, Dewar will give away a bit in power, dropping to a 427 cubic inch engine from the 494 used by Amon, but DeWar's crew chief, Ronnie Kaplan of Chicago, is a recognized genius with the 427 engine.
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« Reply #132 on: December 12, 2013, 01:16:33 PM »

Not only is Gordon Dewar fleshing out as a colorful ( massive understatement ) personality from the various anecdotes written about him in  looking into his background, and certainly not an impression diminished after reading the newspaper article above, but the increasing build-up through Adam's detective work that Dewar's car and person bears no mere happenstance or chance relationship with Ronnie Kaplan. I strongly suspect much mutual trust and respect went on between the two men for Kaplan to be retained as a crew chief on one of three March 707's ever built and a former Amon car to boot!

Steve
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« Reply #133 on: December 12, 2013, 01:18:25 PM »

Straight from the source.....which is Ronnie Kaplan....just got an email from him.

"Yes. He bought a javelin and I later sold it for him.  At this time I can’t remember to who.
 
Ronnie"

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« Reply #134 on: December 12, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »

Well, there we have it. Thank you Adam. It would be of interest to determine which Javelin he sold him, but it is also pretty clear from all the details present on the car that it probably was very closely allied to the number 3 & 4 car in terms of modification and intended use. From Dewar could also be gleaned details, and in particular, if Canadian racing postings don't materialize, at what point in '69 he received the car.


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« Reply #135 on: December 12, 2013, 02:18:20 PM »

Im going to shift gears, in the meanwhile, back to AMX related matters, though there is a Penske connection involved.
Randall. I want to be careful in my approach. But something has been bothering me and perhaps some light can shine on the best way to approach subsequent information gathering.

Jim Alexander and Phil Toney made a visit to the Randalls sometime in the early 2000's it seems. What is unclear is who they spoke with, and what they saw. But klvn8r spoke with Jim Alexander and his view from that conversation was that someone told Jim and Phil that the former T.E.A.M. #6 car had been crushed. At the very least, the car was unavailable, OR UNRECOGNIZABLE, on the day they visited.

Over the years various other sources have said something akin to that "… the #6 car is believed crushed years ago…","… as far as we know, the #6 AMX was destroyed…" ( paraphrasing in both "quotes" ). Yet, Daniel Strohl from Hemmings wrote an article back in 2005 that the family owns the former T.E.A.M. car. Back then he did not write, owned, but owns. In the present tense when he wrote about it.

Cory Randall has told me (2012) that his family owns the #6 T.E.A.M. car. Strange, yes? And something that needs verification, either way. Time and again, when it comes to checking out the history, specifications, how to do things, you name it, what people say isn't necessarily what is. For things AMC this seems to be particularly true. There are many reasons why but don't wish to get side-tracked.

The important thing is to find out the truth, and the fate, behind this historically vital AMC icon. So, considering the importance of success in finding the real answer, I am soliciting advice from any and all about how to accomplish that.

The Penske connection is the reference in pictures and articles to the '71 Javelin the family owns. It has been described as an ex-Penske car.  Don't know if they still own it or what to look for on it, if they have it, to identify it correctly.
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javelin_gt
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« Reply #136 on: December 12, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »

More from Ronnie....   "It was not a team car.  If my memory is correct, I think it was one of several that were built as display or show cars.  At this point in time my memory is a bit confused about what was and what wasn’t.  I believe all the team cars are accounted for, but I can’t tell you which are where. "

I am not sure why there was only one team car at Watkins Glen but RKE fielded 2 cars the rest of the season.
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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #137 on: December 12, 2013, 03:24:04 PM »

According to Jon here, the #4 car was heavily damaged the weekend before at St Jovite 8/3/'69. That is why Ronnie called upon Gordon Dewar- #47 to come down to W G.

Steve
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« Reply #138 on: December 12, 2013, 03:31:33 PM »

Did you just make this up about Kaplan calling Dewar?  It reads like fact which if you made it up you should probably caveat it as such.  

BTW the #4 Javelin driven by Lothar Motschenbacher came in 4th place at St Jovite.  The #3 Javelin driven by Ron Grable was crashed.  



According to Jon here, the #4 car was heavily damaged the weekend before at St Jovite 8/3/'69. That is why Ronnie called upon Gordon Dewar- #47 to come down to W G.

Steve
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javelin_gt
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« Reply #139 on: December 12, 2013, 03:39:47 PM »

Also for those counting.  If the Dewar car was from Kaplan and wasn't a team car like Kaplan says that makes 4 Javelins from 1969 that I know of.   At least 3 are known to survive although one is missing or was possibly burnt up in a fire.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #140 on: December 12, 2013, 04:16:44 PM »

According to Jon here, the #4 car was heavily damaged the weekend before at St Jovite

I did not say the #4 was heavily damaged, it was the #3. I just flubbed the year.

I'm just curious if the #3 car that was wrecked at St Jovite in '69 was repaired or scrapped and replaced with one of the "spare" team cars.
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« Reply #141 on: December 12, 2013, 05:55:37 PM »

Guys, not sure if you are still looking for pictures of the #47 Javelin in 1969 or not but there were several taken at the Trophé Gulf Canada which took place at Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant, Mont-Tremblant, Québec on May 25, 1969.  See the pictures here: http://www.autocourse.ca/photos/saison1969/25mai-gulf/touringcar/index.html   It is part of the autocourse.ca.
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« Reply #142 on: December 12, 2013, 06:04:10 PM »

Another Javelin seems to have participated in Les 6 Heures ACAM du Circuit Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant, Mont-Tremblant, Québec sometime in October of 1969.  See the pictures of this Javelin here: http://www.autocourse.ca/photos/saison1969/octobre-6heuresACAM/octobre-6heuresACAM.html   These pictures also came from autocourse.ca

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Shadow Ahead
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« Reply #143 on: December 12, 2013, 08:48:49 PM »

According to Jon here, the #4 car was heavily damaged the weekend before at St Jovite

I did not say the #4 was heavily damaged, it was the #3. I just flubbed the year.

I'm just curious if the #3 car that was wrecked at St Jovite in '69 was repaired or scrapped and replaced with one of the "spare" team cars.

I'm sorry Jon, I didn't double check what you had said earlier and mixed the two cars up, 3 & 4.

Steve
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« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2013, 10:14:47 PM »

No offense taken, Steve. Just setting the record straight.
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« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2013, 12:35:48 AM »

Did you just make this up about Kaplan calling Dewar?  It reads like fact which if you made it up you should probably caveat it as such. 

BTW the #4 Javelin driven by Lothar Motschenbacher came in 4th place at St Jovite.  The #3 Javelin driven by Ron Grable was crashed. 



According to Jon here, the #4 car was heavily damaged the weekend before at St Jovite 8/3/'69. That is why Ronnie called upon Gordon Dewar- #47 to come down to W G.

Steve

My bad! I drew a conclusion, Adam. Looks like it deserves more research.

By the way, thanks again for contacting Mr. Kaplan and getting his thoughts on the Dewar car. That information says volumes and I appreciate you reaching out to him.

Steve
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« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2013, 12:47:21 AM »

Guys, not sure if you are still looking for pictures of the #47 Javelin in 1969 or not but there were several taken at the Trophé Gulf Canada which took place at Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant, Mont-Tremblant, Québec on May 25, 1969.  See the pictures here: http://www.autocourse.ca/photos/saison1969/25mai-gulf/touringcar/index.html   It is part of the autocourse.ca.


 ( Boy- I am not on it today -I got this all cocked up the first time )We can see the source of one of the pics Adam provided earlier. So, this is earlier in the season. I'll see if the results are available.

Steve
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« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2013, 01:56:10 AM »

The car was there and it looks like it started on the outside second row. But the only results I see for Dewar are on 6 July and 20 July of 1969.

S A
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javelin_gt
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« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2013, 02:58:38 PM »

Speaking of the Bannerman AMX.  I have a photocopied proposal to build and run the car.  Its about a 12 page packet.

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« Reply #149 on: December 14, 2013, 12:13:51 PM »

I would LOVE to have this, could you scan the whole thing? Bob Bannerman actually showed the original to me a few years ago. He had a bunch of stuff from the build. I may contact him again soon.
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