CRG Discussion Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 27, 2014, 06:44:42 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the CRG Discussion Forum!
Forum registration problems: Make sure you enter your email correctly and you check your spam box first. *Then* email KurtS2@gmail for help.
106619 Posts in 12428 Topics by 4790 Members
Latest Member: gmein
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  CRG Discussion Forum
|-+  Camaro Research Group Discussion
| |-+  Decoding/Numbers
| | |-+  First time Camaro gen 1 buyer
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print
Author Topic: First time Camaro gen 1 buyer  (Read 3443 times)
Jbyer8
Member
***
Posts: 56



View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 11:15:18 AM »

And to the comment about bringing someone more knowledgable along with me I wish I could. I did have a member of the local car club look at it for me and he said it drove and looked right. He didn't tear it apart or anything but said it was a nice car.

As for what all was done to it I attached the inspection report above. Dumb question, what exactly does it mean if the visible and hidden vins don't match? Is it not a Camaro?
Logged
cook_dw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 949



View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 11:54:23 AM »

Cook DW

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?

That is correct.  You can not pin point the date with the vin.  But you can get an idea of if it would be possible.  In 68 the vins started at 300,001 & with the one in question being 363426 that would mean that 63,425 cars were built in the first month or so of production.. To me that is not likely..  Do not take that as gospel; it is just my perception on the production.. 
Logged

Darrell Cook

1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28
MyRed67
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 724


SZZLN 67

michael-l.campbell@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 04:04:32 PM »

RED FLAG..

That vin does not line up with the build date...  I would ask the seller to get pictures of the hidden vins..

Welcome to the site.  X2 on the RED FLAG.  At very least I would want to see the Hidden Vins. at this point.
Logged

1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
Original Engine   Z - Tribute
Mike C.    NW - Illinois
MyRed67
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 724


SZZLN 67

michael-l.campbell@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »

Cook DW

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?

Jbyer8,  look at this link;  http://camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany
GM did keep records of the last Vin. built each month at each plant.  That Vin. is about 2 months out of line.
Logged

1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
Original Engine   Z - Tribute
Mike C.    NW - Illinois
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3294


View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 04:28:36 PM »

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?
That is not true. VIN's were sequential so knowing the VIN, you can easily tell what month is was made.
Tag is Sept, VIN is December.
I'd guess the VIN was swapped. Not good, no matter what the paperwork says.
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
MyRed67
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 724


SZZLN 67

michael-l.campbell@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 04:41:18 PM »

Jbyer8,
  Don't take this wrong, guys here are not "brow beating" the car, it is a nice car.  Point here is, IF they have changed either the VIN. tag or the Cowl Tag, they probably had a reason for doing so that they are not willing to reveal.  IE, they may have done some serious Body work they don't want to disclose.  The guys here are just trying to give you a "heads up",  could even cause some serious legal issues later if/when you decide to sell the car.  I hope it all works out for you.
Logged

1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
Original Engine   Z - Tribute
Mike C.    NW - Illinois
lakeholme
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2181


*68-12D L30/M35*


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2013, 05:04:28 PM »

Jbyer8,
  Don't take this wrong, guys here are not "brow beating" the car, it is a nice car.  Point here is, IF they have changed either the VIN. tag or the Cowl Tag, they probably had a reason for doing so that they are not willing to reveal.  IE, they may have done some serious Body work they don't want to disclose.  The guys here are just trying to give you a "heads up",  could even cause some serious legal issues later if/when you decide to sell the car.  I hope it all works out for you.


X2 on MYRed67's comment and everyone's caution.
They've obviouslly thrown a lot of parts and restoration cash into this car, but it is still only going to be a driver.  So, don't pay a ton of money if you decide to buy it.  And use just as much mechanical caution as you would in buying any used car.  In other words, even in a non-matching, pieced together car, you don't want to drive away with a lemon that you will never get out of it half of what you put into it.
I do agree, however, the car looks nice.  It could draw notice driving down the street or at a local cruise-in.
Although, according to my taste, I don't see why anyone would restore a great looking butternut 68 with a black vinyl top into a vanilla black and white...  Grin Roll Eyes Huh
Logged

Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
Jbyer8
Member
***
Posts: 56



View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 06:37:48 PM »

I really appreciate everyone's advice and comments. I'm learning alot. Being the new by that I am I've just really fallen for this car. But y'all are giving me perspective. Knowing that the car is a Frankenstein and alot of work has gone into it what is the value of something like this? I know value depends on what you're looking for in a car. Should the dealer selling this car know that the vins don't match? Especially if they did all this work to it? Sorry for beating a dead horse. The car itself has everything I'm looking for in it. I
Logged
Jbyer8
Member
***
Posts: 56



View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »

Not that clarification is needed but when asking about price I want to assume the below.

I recognize the fact that its not numbers matching. Factoring in all the work that has been done to it( see earlier post) no visible rust or welding issues and that its not a lemon. Long story short the dealer is asking 32k for it. Am I crazy?
Logged
69Z28-RS
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2488


owner since '76


View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »

IMO, if the VIN and the trim tab date do not *align*, then it is much more likely that the Trim plate was changed, than the VIN.  it is against the law to change the VIN plate.   If you check the hidden VIN and it does not match the visible VIN plate, then there are *legal issues* with the car.    If the VINs match the hidden VIN, but the trim plate dates/etc doesn't line up, then it is likely that the trim plate has been changed to reflect a 'more desirable' model or set of options... which isn't illegal, but can drastically affect the value of the car.
Logged

Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
Jbyer8
Member
***
Posts: 56



View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 10:39:46 PM »

That thing does look like its been beat to death. Any tell tell signs to inspect to see if its been replaced?
Logged
69Z28-RS
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2488


owner since '76


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 11:02:55 PM »

Others have indicated your TT date and the VIN do NOT match up in time... so if the VIN is the original one (ie. .. matches the hidden VINs), then the TT has been changed, but that  TT is basically a 'manufacturer's plate'..   same as that little plate on the back of most refrigerators, computers,e tc..  which identifies the model number, mfg, etc..   your car will run just FINE without a trim plate.. and it has nothing to do with ownership.  It's only critical if you are *showing* the car in original classes, or 'playing the matching numbers' game..  Smiley   

Note:  If it's true what was posted earlier, that your VIN was for a December built car, and your TT was a September date, then it seems beyond possible that they both were on that car from the factory.
What you should do is this:

1)  Check the hidden VINs against the title VIN and the displayed VIN on the car.   if these do not match, DO NOT THINK ABOUT purchasing this car.  you could pay good money for it, and then have another owner claim the car and you LOSE... everything..  car.. $$$$..  money everything.   You should suggest the current owner run the REAL VIN (the hidden VIN) with law enforcement to check if it's stolen (but DO NOT BUY IT).. Smiley

2)  IF the VIN's all match, assuring you that the title is the correct one for this car, and you are buying it from the titled owner, and if you like everything else about the car, then you might want to buy it...  you WILL be the legal owner per the VIN and title.

The TT has NOTHING to do with legal ownership.

PS.  Kurt indicated that he thought the VIN was probably changed, but that would indicate a STOLEN car.   IMO that's less likely that the TT was changed out.  LOTS of people change our the Trim Tag simply to make the car look more desirable (ie. take one from a September car and put it on your Dec car).  It's NOT a good thing, but it's not illegal, although it's unethical and immoral... and it's done to *fool* people (namely buyers).
Logged

Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
cook_dw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 949



View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 07:13:57 AM »

Cook DW

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?

That is correct.  You can not pin point the date with the vin.  But you can get an idea of if it would be possible.  In 68 the vins started at 300,001 & with the one in question being 363426 that would mean that 63,425 cars were built in the first month or so of production.. To me that is not likely..  Do not take that as gospel; it is just my perception on the production.. 

Cook DW

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?

Jbyer8,  look at this link;  http://camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany
GM did keep records of the last Vin. built each month at each plant.  That Vin. is about 2 months out of line.

I read that the vin doesn't tell you anything about build date. Is that not true?
That is not true. VIN's were sequential so knowing the VIN, you can easily tell what month is was made.
Tag is Sept, VIN is December.
I'd guess the VIN was swapped. Not good, no matter what the paperwork says.


I stand corrected.  Thanks Mike & Kurt.  I didnt realize that data was available.
Logged

Darrell Cook

1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28
Jbyer8
Member
***
Posts: 56



View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 02:28:24 PM »

What would be the easiest way to get to the hidden vin and how would I do it?
Logged
ko-lek-tor
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 587



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2013, 09:07:25 PM »

at the very least,you might be able to pear down through the cowl vent(near the passenger wiper arm) with a light and make out the numbers. At the most,you may have to have owner remove cowl vent panel so numbers can be accessed. There is a second set of numbers under the heater fan, but serious diassembly would be needed to see this set. Most would be satisfied if the cowl vent number matches. It is a partial vin starting with 8n------(norwood built) or 8L------(los Angeles) for a 1968 model year. The rest of the vin should match dash vin 363426.All this information is here on this site.Proceed with caution!
Logged

Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.087 seconds with 18 queries.