Engine hook bolts on manifold

[sbmiano]

I am new to this sight and am fresh off the Camaro Nationals legends show.  It was a blast and a great experience.  Had the car judged (stressful at that level) and in return got a nice list of things to be done.  One in particular was odd to me. Judges said the bolts for the engine hooks were incorrect.  They are installed under the same bolts that hold the manifold on.  Im confused, did they have 2 different bolts for the engine hooks and then the rest were manifold bolts?  Thanks for your input and more to come. lol

[sbmiano]

lol my bad its a 69 z with a build date of 04D and was built in Van Nuys plant

[x77-69z28]

Yes, the bolts for the engine hooks were shouldered. The rest were not. If that is the worst thing they found, you did pretty well! Welcome to the site. It's a great place for info. Great car people here.
Buddy

[sbmiano]

thanks do you have a picture of them ?  are they the same finish as the others only shouldered?  Thanks so much

[69Z28-RS]

I was also in MD at the Camaro Nats, and greatly enjoyed it, meeting great people and seeing some fantastic cars.   What year? and which one was yours?? 

[Hans L]

Not the clearest picture, but this gives you an idea what the shouldered bolt looks like.  Jerry MacNeish rebuilt/restored the engine.

[tmodel66]

Hans did you paint the intake and thermostat housing?

[67L78]

Were the shoulder bolts used on big blocks also?

[68camaroz28]

Here is a clear pic of ours off our 68Z. This is one of the three originals. Our 68 had one each used for the engine lift hooks and one used for alternator support.

[Edgemontvillage]

Not the clearest picture, but this gives you an idea what the shouldered bolt looks like.  Jerry MacNeish rebuilt/restored the engine.

Interesting details, dimpled (manifold) carb studs (?) and partially painted head on intake manifold plane.   

[Hans L]

Hans did you paint the intake and thermostat housing?

No, that's natural aluminum for both.  Jerry restored both using his aluminum restoration process.  He also did the valve covers and distributor.    The above picture was taken the day I received it back (late January this year).

[69Z28-RS]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

[Hans L]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

I really don't know.  I'd be curious to get Jerry MacNeish's input - he restored the engine back to factory spec.

[69Z28freak]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

I really don't know.  I'd be curious to get Jerry MacNeish's input - he restored the engine back to factory spec.

Very interesting. I thought that the lift brackets were unpainted ok aluminum intake cars. Perhaps I was wrong. I just stripped the paint off of mine.

[68camaroz28]

For the small population of original cars I've looked at it seems many 69's and later (70 LT1's) had natural lift hooks. There was a real debate about this on the Yenko site sometime back. On our 68 I have them painted but here is a late Sept. 69 built Z/28 survivor with no paint.

[Edgemontvillage]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

Yes, that's right. 

[william]

Lift hooks on engines with aluminum intakes are known to have been brush-painted to match during assembly.

[69Z28freak]

For the small population of original cars I've looked at it seems many 69's and later (70 LT1's) had natural lift hooks. There was a real debate about this on the Yenko site sometime back. On our 68 I have them painted but here is a late Sept. 69 built Z/28 survivor with no paint.

Thanks Chick that is what I thought. I assumed that the hooks got painted on the assembly line where the motors got painted as an assembly. For an aluminum intake with painted lift hooks, either the hooks would have been painted separately or they would have been painted in place with considerable overspray. Most original intakes that I have seen had minimal overspray on '69's and '70's.

[1968 Z28]

Lift hooks on engines with aluminum intakes are known to have been brush-painted to match during assembly.

My 1968 07C z28 lift hooks were painted aluminum.  Also, what was strange was the intake manifold bolts.....they were standard phosphate coated bolts that had been painted aluminum, even the lift hook bolts were standard hex head bolts painted aluminum.  They must have run out of zinc plated ones and used what was available and painted them later.  Also my distributor hold down and bolt was painted aluminum.

[Charley]

My 1100 mile 70 Z had the lift brackets painted silver along with the intake bolts. The plug wire stand off bracket was brush painted orange.

[Charley]

For the small population of original cars I've looked at it seems many 69's and later (70 LT1's) had natural lift hooks. There was a real debate about this on the Yenko site sometime back. On our 68 I have them painted but here is a late Sept. 69 built Z/28 survivor with no paint.

From the pic you posted there is silver paint still on that bracket.

[Steve Shauger]

My 1100 mile 70 Z had the lift brackets painted silver along with the intake bolts. The plug wire stand off bracket was brush painted orange.

This is consistent with what I've observed on unrestored engines with aluminum intakes.

[jdv69z]

So were all the bolts used on the intake manifold the same head marking? I removed some recently that have no marking at all. Then they would not be original I assume? The motor had minimal work done to it before my ownership, so I would not have thought these to be replaced?  Hex head and Had washers underneath as well. Guess the washers prevent damage to the aluminum of the manifold.

[1968 Z28]

For the small population of original cars I've looked at it seems many 69's and later (70 LT1's) had natural lift hooks. There was a real debate about this on the Yenko site sometime back. On our 68 I have them painted but here is a late Sept. 69 built Z/28 survivor with no paint.

From the pic you posted there is silver paint still on that bracket.

That was what I thought also.....looks just like mine before I cleaned them.  Another thing about the aluminum silver painted distributor hold down and bolt....they weren't to neat about painting them, apparently they used a brush as there was a lot of brush applied paint on the distributor wire.

[1968 Z28]

So were all the bolts used on the intake manifold the same head marking? I removed some recently that have no marking at all. Then they would not be original I assume? The motor had minimal work done to it before my ownership, so I would not have thought these to be replaced?  Hex head and Had washers underneath as well. Guess the washers prevent damage to the aluminum of the manifold.

Jimmy....there were two different lengths of intake manifold bolts that I know of and each of them had different head markings.  The short ones were used on the manifold holes that had no other parts attached or thin metal brackets and the longer ones were used on the holes with thicker brackets attached to the manifold...such as the smog bracket, lift hook, and alternator bracket.

[68camaroz28]

Good point Charlie! I need to look at that car again when the opportunity arises to check the bolts and better close up of the hook.
Jerry, interesting on your 68! My wire dist. holder just had very slight surface rust with nothing on it. Bolt similar!
Steve, have you observed any 67 or early 68 survivors with the hooks orange? Know you've seen a bunch compared to a couple on my end.......

[1968 Z28]

So were all the bolts used on the intake manifold the same head marking? I removed some recently that have no marking at all. Then they would not be original I assume? The motor had minimal work done to it before my ownership, so I would not have thought these to be replaced?  Hex head and Had washers underneath as well. Guess the washers prevent damage to the aluminum of the manifold.

Jimmy one other thing on the manifold bolts....my understanding is that (and it may be wrong) the manifold bolts were first installed at the engine plant and they were all the short ones.  When the engine arrived at the auto assembly plant dress line, the short bolts were removed and the other ones added as the equipment was installed.  Thus, you could have different head stampings because you are dealing with two different plants.

Oops, forgot something, the AIM states that the orange alternator bracket on the '68 Z28 was part of the engine assembly (wouldn't apply to a '69), so this item might get a longer bolt at the engine plant. Also the AIM states that the spark plug wire towers were also part of the engine assembly, but these were thinner so maybe they used the short bolts. I haven't been able to determine where the engine hooks were installed, at the engine plant or the assembly line dress plant.  Maybe someone else might know for sure.

[69Z28]

This is an interesting subject. Lets keep it going if we can. I know I don't have original intake bolts on my 69 Z and the lift hooks are painted orange, I painted the lift hooks myself and the bolts are from Ricks 1st Gen. So how many different bolts were used and what lengths would be a good place to start for a 69 Z intake?  

[68camaroz28]

Here is a clear pic of ours off our 68Z. This is one of the three originals. Our 68 had one each used for the engine lift hooks and one used for alternator support.

Jerry, this is the one that was in our orange bracket, the same type used for the engine hooks. Had three of these bolts and the bracket had the larger diameter impression from when it had been torqued. The one shown is one of the three originals that I had glass beaded and had re-coated with clear zinc.

[1968 Z28]

Chick....I could not find any shouldered bolts on my intake setup.  Go figure.....who knows what happened.  Good photo of the bolt....thanks for showing what should be there.

[jdv69z]

So were all the bolts used on the intake manifold the same head marking? I removed some recently that have no marking at all. Then they would not be original I assume? The motor had minimal work done to it before my ownership, so I would not have thought these to be replaced?  Hex head and Had washers underneath as well. Guess the washers prevent damage to the aluminum of the manifold.

Jimmy one other thing on the manifold bolts....my understanding is that (and it may be wrong) the manifold bolts were first installed at the engine plant and they were all the short ones.  When the engine arrived at the auto assembly plant dress line, the short bolts were removed and the other ones added as the equipment was installed.  Thus, you could have different head stampings because you are dealing with two different plants.

Wouldn't the engine hooks have been installed at the Flint engine assembly plant? The whole reason they are there is for handling the engines assemblies from Flint to the assembly plant,  the dress line, and to final chassis install I think? So if that's true, then whatever bolts were used for the hooks were installed at the Flint engine plant.

[JohnZ]

Jimmy one other thing on the manifold bolts....my understanding is that (and it may be wrong) the manifold bolts were first installed at the engine plant and they were all the short ones.  When the engine arrived at the auto assembly plant dress line, the short bolts were removed and the other ones added as the equipment was installed.  Thus, you could have different head stampings because you are dealing with two different plants.

Wouldn't the engine hooks have been installed at the Flint engine assembly plant? The whole reason they are there is for handling the engines assemblies from Flint to the assembly plant,  the dress line, and to final chassis install I think? So if that's true, then whatever bolts were used for the hooks were installed at the Flint engine plant.

The engine lift hooks were installed at the engine plants, and weren't touched at the car assembly plants.

[1968 Z28]

Agreed on the lift hooks.....was reading over on the Supercar Registry last night and got a good education.  But, back to Jimmy's question, it still appears that there was at least two different length bolts and the possibility of different head markings.

[Edgemontvillage]

1. Were the intake bolt heads and/or lift hooks brush painted before or after installation? Is there any evidence of silver paint brushed on the intake manifold?
2. What shade and gloss (of silver) was used? Argent?

[JohnZ]

2. What shade and gloss (of silver) was used? Argent?

Try Krylon "dull aluminum".

[MO]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

I may be off base on this, and please correct me if I am. When engines with aluminum manifolds and valve covers were built, a shield was used to keep as much paint off of them as possible. That area of the head would have been painted, but maybe not as much as the rest and burned off leaving the impression that it had never been painted. On assembly line cars, orange over-spray could be seen on the manifold/valve covers verifying that point. Some restorers do not want to see assembly line features like that and prefer to paint the head complete and then install the manifold, eliminating the over-spray from it. Personally, I like the assembly line defects. 

[69Z28-RS]

No, I don't agree.  There would be no reason to even try, as it would be futile to have attempted to paint that little sliver of 'head' between the aluminum intake and aluminum valve cover using the crude masks they had to use. 
I've never seen factory paint in that area on such a car (with aluminum intake and aluminum VC), but what you do in rebuilding your own car is your business..   

[Charley]

Edgemontvillage was referring to the engine orange on the head surface between the valve cover and intake manifold... ie. the upper part of the machined surface for intake gasket...  which normally would not get painted on such an engine (with aluminum manifold and aluminum valve covers)..

I may be off base on this, and please correct me if I am. When engines with aluminum manifolds and valve covers were built, a shield was used to keep as much paint off of them as possible. That area of the head would have been painted, but maybe not as much as the rest and burned off leaving the impression that it had never been painted. On assembly line cars, orange over-spray could be seen on the manifold/valve covers verifying that point. Some restorers do not want to see assembly line features like that and prefer to paint the head complete and then install the manifold, eliminating the over-spray from it. Personally, I like the assembly line defects. 

I have never seen any assembly pics like that. My 1100 mile 70 Z had no evidence of that at all. It has orange paint on the plug wire stands that were done with a brush.

[Edgemontvillage]

I have never seen any assembly pics like that. My 1100 mile 70 Z had no evidence of that at all. It has orange paint on the plug wire stands that were done with a brush.

Charley, would love to see a close up photo of the brush work on the plug wire stands.

[Charley]

Should be some on  www.1970z28camaro.com

[Charley]

I just looked and there are a bunch of detail pics that show the silver paint on the intake bolts, bare head area next to intake, engine lift brackets and the dist hold down clamp and bolt. Also at least one good pic of the brush paint on the plug wire stand. Somebody smarter than me can figure out how to post them here.

[MO]

Thanks for the info. I assume then that the restored cars that I have seen with over-spray there, are over-restored.

[69Z28freak]

Should be some on  www.1970z28camaro.com

Very nice pictures Charley. Thanks for posting.

[Charley]

Feel free to post them over here. I have tried just uploading here but the size limit is too small to get any detail. Maybe someone can link them ?

[69Z28]

That 70 Z28 is sharp. Was looking at the pics of what is being discussed here and was wondering if the 69 Z28 was the same. Were all the intake bolts painted silver or natural? How about the lift hooks and the bolts on the lift hooks? I'm gonna assume the lift hooks were painted silver, but were any painted orange with the aluminum intake? And 'HAND' painted spark plug wire stands? Probably a paint brush right? I can see brush strokes on the wire stand by the brake booster. Unusual, I would have never thought that. On the lift hook bolts, with a loose washer or washer part of the head?

Something else that caught my eye was the shielding around the points in the distributor. Pretty neat part. Must of had some radio noise or some sort of interference.

[JohnZ]

Brush-painted orange plug wire supports are very common on original '69-up Corvette L-46 (350/350) and LT-1 (350/370) engines, with various colors of lifting brackets (silver, natural, orange) in no particular pattern, and '63-'67 Corvette engines with aluminum intakes and valve covers had the area on the heads between the intake and the valve covers (that was covered by the plastic mask in the paint booth) sprayed silver/aluminum, which frequently included the intake manifold bolt heads.

[69Z28]

Interesting facts. Way more detail in doing a perfect factory restore if your going that route.

[x77-69z28]

Charley, do you still have the 70Z?
Buddy

[Charley]

Nope. It is in good hands though. I have a high mileage one with a engine covered in 43 years of grease. It also has non orange engine lift brackets.

[BULLITT65]

Charley, I really like the pics of the 1100 mile 70 Z, your engine compartment looks very similar to mine at 46k.
 SBMaino this is a good example of "original".
Any other 69 Z or camaro in general claiming to be "all original unrestored" yet all the finishes in the engine compartment are pristine, is fooling himself.

"IN RUST WE TRUST"
you just can't beat that original patina of a unrestored car in my opinion.

[69Z28freak]

Charley, I really like the pics of the 1100 mile 70 Z, your engine compartment looks very similar to mine at 46k.
 SBMaino this is a good example of "original".
Any other 69 Z or camaro in general claiming to be "all original unrestored" yet all the finishes in the engine compartment are pristine, is fooling himself.

"IN RUST WE TRUST"
you just can't beat that original patina of a unrestored car in my opinion.

I pulled a set of original front spiral shocks off of my 6 cylinder car. I have not looked at them that closely. However they are original and I may will to part with them. PM if interested.

[Jerry@CHP]

Just a quick post here to clarify here.  On Han's engine, I did paint where the intake meets the cylinder head.  I do this is many cases so that area does not rust.  There are variations in this area and sometimes there is a light over spray of orange in this area.  Other original cars have no paint there.  So, restoring your engine gives you several options and how you want to do it.

Regarding engine lift hooks, I have seen them both ways on Z28's.  Painted orange and not painted (natural) or silver in color.  I have inspected and looked at dozens of original survivor cars since the late 1980's and no two seem to be identical.  Again, it's up to the restorer.  If he likes them orange, do them that way.  If you want them natural then that is good too.  Either will net you full points in the "Legend Certification."   I have many original photos both ways.

Hope this helps.

Jerry     

[Hans L]

Makes sense Jerry.  Thanks for the clarification.   I'm very pleased with the way the engine was restored by you.

[69Z28freak]

Just a quick post here to clarify here.  On Han's engine, I did paint where the intake meets the cylinder head.  I do this is many cases so that area does not rust.  There are variations in this area and sometimes there is a light over spray of orange in this area.  Other original cars have no paint there.  So, restoring your engine gives you several options and how you want to do it.

Regarding engine lift hooks, I have seen them both ways on Z28's.  Painted orange and not painted (natural) or silver in color.  I have inspected and looked at dozens of original survivor cars since the late 1980's and no two seem to be identical.  Again, it's up to the restorer.  If he likes them orange, do them that way.  If you want them natural then that is good too.  Either will net you full points in the "Legend Certification."   I have many original photos both ways.

Hope this helps.

Jerry     

Thanks Jerry that is great info. I recently noticed silver paint on my reverse lockout linkage, original to car as far as I know. Not on the rods however.

[enio45]

Related to the plug wire stands for a 69Z - i believe earlier someone stated the intake bolts for these items are painted/brushed orange?   

is this correct for the 69Z?  maybe 70 but im having a hard time believing this with some of the survivor cars i looked at. 

Jerry - thoughts?

[Charley]

Here is a 69 Z28 project on Ebay. Notice the silver paint still left on the engine lift bracket. I can't figure out how to link just the pic.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-camaro-z-28-Hugger-Orange-/330968144219?_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&ss#v4-42

[dannystarr]

Here ya go...If ya want a close-up of any other part of that engine picture let me know... Danny

[69Z28-RS]

Here is a 69 Z28 project on Ebay. Notice the silver paint still left on the engine lift bracket. I can't figure out how to link just the pic.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-camaro-z-28-Hugger-Orange-/330968144219?_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&ss#v4-42

It appears someone may have purchased themselves a nice Z28... very little molestation to that one for 44 years, but the first thing I'd do is remove those ugly houndstooth floor mats..      Then i'd wash it good *G*

[BULLITT65]

I thought all you guys that really liked the hounds tooth interior, would love those floor mats?

[Edgemontvillage]

[BULLITT65]

I see a return spring on your engine hook danny, and then on Loyds car no return spring there, but both of your cars have the water neck with a provision for the return spring, I am pretty sure my water neck doesn't have the provision for the spring. Did all 69 Z have that provision? or was this insignificant enough where some had it and some didn't?
Or just early cars had it? (didn't mean to hijack just curious if this has been raised before or noticed)

[JohnZ]

I see a return spring on your engine hook danny, and then on Loyds car no return spring there, but both of your cars have the water neck with a provision for the return spring, I am pretty sure my water neck doesn't have the provision for the spring. Did all 69 Z have that provision? or was this insignificant enough where some had it and some didn't?
Or just early cars had it? (didn't mean to hijack just curious if this has been raised before or noticed)

All 660 thermostat housings had the provision for a return spring, but it wasn't used - the spring was anchored at the REAR, on the spark plug wire support; bad design that accelerated wear of the primary throttle shaft holes in the baseplate, but that's the way it was.

[BULLITT65]

So did the whole production run of 69 Z 's come with the 660 only? maybe i have the wrong one...
( I am not in front of my car just trying to zoom in on a picture of mine, hard to see if it has it or not)

[jims69]

Our thermostat housing has a provision for a return spring.   Concerned about throttle shaft wear;  I added a front spring  years ago.  It doesn't look correct; but the extra spring is easy  to remove.  A slightly different "feel" on the accelerator pedal ; is the only difference during driving.

Jim

[Edgemontvillage]

So did the whole production run of 69 Z 's come with the 660 only? maybe i have the wrong one...
( I am not in front of my car just trying to zoom in on a picture of mine, hard to see if it has it or not)

There is a good CRG thread on the 660 thermostat housing that might help:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10971.0