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Author Topic: WHAT IS A CLONE CAR?  (Read 2117 times)
VINCE Z28
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« on: May 09, 2013, 02:58:52 PM »

Lets say we have a 69 Camaro non numbers, no docs, LA car restored. It has a original trim tag, the right paint color and interior. would this constitute a clone? Terry
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 03:10:39 PM »

Lets say we have a 69 Camaro non numbers, no docs, LA car restored. It has a original trim tag, the right paint color and interior. would this constitute a clone? Terry

No.

Paul
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 03:24:13 PM »

In the automotive world, the definition of a clone is to convert it into something it wasn't from the factory. With regards to the first generation Camaro, it's done mostly to change a non-Z28 into a Z28, a non-Yenko into a Yenko, a non-SS into an SS, a non-ZL1 into a ZL1, a non-Z11 inito a Z11, etc... And cloning mostly refers to the engine itself (ie, Z28) but not always (ie, Z11).

And you'll NEVER see the reverse, such as converting a real Z28 into a base model, or a real ZL1 converted into a 6 cylinder coupe!!

Ed
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VINCE Z28
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 03:49:19 PM »

I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.
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ZLP955
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 03:58:45 PM »

I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.
What they probably mean is that if someone is selling a car that is badged as, say an SS, but it is missing some or all of the original drivetrain, and it has no original documentation (POP, sales contract, verified broadcast copy etc), then there is no way to prove the car is what it appears to be. Therefore it might be valued as a base-model V8 that has been cloned into a more desirable/valuable car.
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 03:59:50 PM »

A clone is in my opinion, is a car that no longer represents the way it was manufactured. Usually low end, less desireable cars are used to clone more desireable or more valuable versions of the same model. It may be done for personal pleasure, or for profit. Too many clones are not represented as clones when they are offered for sale, but the seller attempts to profit by fraud, selling them for the value associated with the model that has been cloned.
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 04:02:32 PM »

Quote
I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.

Paperwork (REAL paperwork) proves what you have. If you don't have paperwork, then you can't always prove what you have, but the car could still be what it's represented as.

For instance, for 1969, a real X33 trim tag (that's correctly dated for a particular cars VIN) proves the car's a real Z28. It may no longer have the original engine, transmission, axle, etc..., but that one item has just proven the car left the factory as a Z28.

Ed
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 04:44:07 PM »

I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.
In terms of paperwork, that being true, then every 68 without paperwork, no matter how original, would be a clone...  Huh  Huh  Huh

I'm with Ed on this one.

Quote
I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.

Paperwork (REAL paperwork) proves what you have. If you don't have paperwork, then you can't always prove what you have, but the car could still be what it's represented as.
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Phillip
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VINCE Z28
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 05:36:11 PM »

Yes I see your point, thinks guys. Hey Ed.. can you suggest someone on this site that might know about the power window regulator that I posted on Tech page. (Power window regulators). I've come up empty so far.Terry
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 06:31:08 PM by VINCE Z28 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 11:02:31 PM »

I was on another site, and some thought if you don't have original paper work, original drive train, then it's a clone as far as they were concerned.
I, too, have read this definition and wonder if my car would be considered a clone. I certainly do not consider it as such. When I bought my car 33 years ago, no one thought of getting paperwork. I was 19 and never tried to research past owners. Worse, I did not have the funds to buy my car at the time, a mere $400, so my best friend bought it and I paid him back. My title has his name on it as previous owner, but I cannot remember the guy's name it was bought from. Laws here in Ohio prevent me from getting information about previous owners and records only go back 7 years, I was told. So, I have no documentation. The car is totally correct and original except for the engine which was blown up and the guy(who sold it to my friend) who had car pulled engine and it ended up with a relative of  his. Yea, I would like to find the original engine, of course and I will keep looking, but I went ahead and proccured a date correct engine when I decided to restore car. The radiator,bellhousing, even flywheel are original to car as well as other drivetrain and options are as born with. Understanadably, I am somewhat offended to have a car like this lumped in with pieced together cars as a clone. The car is a REAL SS/RS X22,M20 712,72 12B Nor. The engine is a T1108JH L78. Most of the vin, which is still on pad for this time period is obscurred by rust pits, so can't be read. Nothing has been restamped or doctored in attempt to mis-represent. All components are correct and GM original including smog,pulleys,alternator,etc... Is this a clone? or a restored car with NOM?
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1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
VINCE Z28
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 01:07:28 AM »

I believe after 911 the states cut off the flow of information. Back in the early 90's I did a (title search) through the Oregon DMV, you paid $20 and got a shack off paper work and at the bottom was the original owner. After contacting him I received pictures of the car he took in "69" plus the P O P. Unfortunately those days are long gone.
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69Z28freak
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 03:37:32 AM »

My car is a clone car. 6 cylinder car to Z/28. I am using all correct Z/28 parts for the most part. Trying to recreate my car to appear as if it was a Z/28 as it would have left the factory. But not however claiming that it is supposed to be a real Z/28.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=186787
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Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro
lynnbilodeau
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 10:50:33 AM »

I believe after 911 the states cut off the flow of information. Back in the early 90's I did a (title search) through the Oregon DMV, you paid $20 and got a shack off paper work and at the bottom was the original owner. After contacting him I received pictures of the car he took in "69" plus the P O P. Unfortunately those days are long gone.

Actually had nothing to do with 911.  Federal privacy laws were enacted in the 90's that affected title searches  There are usaully ways to get around it, depending on the situations.   As with most federal laws that are implemented on the state level, there are wildly differering interpretations and practices from one state to another.

Some states have info going back decades.   Oklahoma has info from the 60's, BUT lost data on many cars in 1978 when they changed over to a new computer system.   So... it is hit and miss.  Unfortunately, mine is a miss.  They don't even have a record of me purchasing the car from my brother in 1976.   I say they don't have the info.   They really do.  It just isn't on a computer, so no one will spend the time going through old microfiche to find it.   If I KNEW for certain that my car was purchased originally in Oklahoma, I would find someone at the Tax Commission (we don't have a DMV) who would get me access to old records and I would do a search myself.  Unfortunately, I have no idea where the car was prior to 1975.
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VINCE Z28
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 12:51:16 PM »

Some states will have a "see this state" to show you what state to look at next. If it's important to you, then it worth the time and go for it. I once spent a year and a half looking for my L 78 motor and trans and found them. Persistence and luck. It seems strange to me that they site privacy reasons for not getting information on our cars, but you can get all the information about someone on line!! 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 01:12:09 PM by VINCE Z28 » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 02:17:59 PM »

  I'm sure most would consider my car a clone.  And it probably is.  I know this is nit-picky, but I consider it a tribute.  It was a base coupe with 327 / Powerglide.  To those who know there are 3 tell-tale signs, 1...Cowl tag Date code 11A(too early for a Z28)  2...ME suffix on Engine Block (Z28 would have been MO)   3...it has a 350 TH Auto. Trans.  There are other tell-tale signs, these are just most obvious.   And I have no Documentation of the origin of the car, just history after my brothers purchase in '86.
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1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
Original Engine   Z - Tribute
Mike C.    NW - Illinois
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