Author Topic: Subframe Crisis  (Read 7230 times)

JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.
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lynnbilodeau

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2013, 06:32:10 PM »
Well then, the "air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports" missed part of my tail panel.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2013, 01:38:30 AM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.

Was the Norwood Camaro plant included on that list of 'automated' paint plants (in 1969) John???
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2013, 04:46:23 PM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.

Was the Norwood Camaro plant included on that list of 'automated' paint plants (in 1969) John???

Yes - Norwood used the air-driven overhead and side-mounted reciprocating guns for the horizontal and vertical surfaces; other areas (cut-ins, rear end, etc.) were done manually.
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69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2013, 05:09:29 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2013, 04:57:50 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.
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68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 12:35:30 AM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.

John, is it true that one issue the Fisher side had with the recip guns if paint change (switching colors) was made between cars and a little too late from the more inexperienced relief workers the resultant color was just a tad off on the frontal area? I've read that was/might have been one reason the Chevrolet side had inspectors to inspect incoming bodies from the Fisher side with paint chips! And in the first gen life through the 1969 model year was the Chevrolet side still dependent upon experienced painters/tinters to mix paint for matching?
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JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 02:57:59 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.

John, is it true that one issue the Fisher side had with the recip guns if paint change (switching colors) was made between cars and a little too late from the more inexperienced relief workers the resultant color was just a tad off on the frontal area? I've read that was/might have been one reason the Chevrolet side had inspectors to inspect incoming bodies from the Fisher side with paint chips! And in the first gen life through the 1969 model year was the Chevrolet side still dependent upon experienced painters/tinters to mix paint for matching?

Paint was a very complex operation, with an enormous number of variables that had to be controlled constantly to produce consistent results, especially at Norwood, where Fisher and Chevrolet had their own completely separate Paint Shops. Paint operations are covered in some detail in the CRG "First-Generation Camaro Assembly Process" report.
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paceme

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2013, 03:04:24 AM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

Hi Gary,

Coverage on the inner (engine compartment side) of the front fenders is typically thin . There are many bends in that area and some area received very light dusting/overspray. In addition there are variations in color shades between the Fisher painted assembly and the Chevrolet front clip. Not always noticeaple, but it certainly was an issue. Look closely at original paint cars. The most noticeable example I know of was my 19k mile Tahoe Turquois 67 rs/ss L78. Beautiful original paint, but the front clip varied several shades from the doors back.

Regarding Vintage Cerification (survivor) judging. Typically factory blemishes /anomalies (color variations ) are not deductions. Originality and preservation are the key criteria for our program.
Steve Shauger
Vintage Certification™ Program, Providing Recognition And Status To Unrestored Vehicles. Website www.vintagecertification.com

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2013, 03:34:27 AM »
Thanks Steve,

I had always suspected that my front clip had been repainted due to those two things:  1) slight difference from the paint from firewall back, and 2) thin coverage on the inner fender area...   Now I'm not sure....  :)

Gary
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

firstgenaddict

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »
Here are a few pics of the black RS/Z's undercarriage....remember this is a black car so most of the floors would have body color overspray (black)

Frame rails... GRAY



Floor pans with Gray


inside floors grey and red with black overspray



James
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NoYenko

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2013, 11:31:30 PM »
James, thanks for the interesting pictures.  My blue car was Nor built 11A, car is all black underneath except for just below the firewall and forward 6" of the floor. That area is grey primer. Ignore the orange repaint in pictures. My frame rails looked grey also but I took a scotchbrite pad to them and it was black underneath the grey. I thought maybe they are galvanized steel and the grey coming thru was do to the zinc. It only showed up on the rear frame rails and the square box at the front of the rail. My floor looked just like your Blue Z, but not so nice. Had the same blue overspray on the lower ribs, wheel wells, trunk pan etc. The interior of the black car shows allot of red primer before the grey primer and paint, where on my car the red was covered up more but still visible. I just got my car out of the paint shop and trying to decide if I should attempt to duplicate the grey primer & runs on the front floor. The paint ran out of the seam and scallop cuts under the toe boards. We are thinking the paint guns were cleaned out and sprayed into pockets for the sub frame mounts. It shows signs of black and grey paint leaking out. Looking for an opinion and or advice at this point. George

NoYenko

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2013, 11:33:04 PM »
Front floor area.