Author Topic: Subframe Crisis  (Read 7222 times)

69Z28freak

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Subframe Crisis
« on: March 20, 2013, 09:23:47 AM »
Any idea what this was?



This...



And this...



And this...



And this...



And this...



I am not sure how bad it is yet, but I will find out soon enough. It looks like the subframe washers have disintegrated. When I loosened them up with the impact driver, the old parts just crumbled into dust. I am hoping that the subframe is ok. And that it does not need to be removed and repaired.

The original plan was not to remove the subframe, but that plan may change, depending on the severity of the rust damage.

If anyone has experienced this situation before I would love to hear about it and hear about some solutions to this potentially nasty situation.

Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

Sauron327

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 11:20:36 AM »
Pulling a subframe and leaving the nose installed is an easy task. Read the assembly process, although that document is not required for subframe removal. Bushings are supposed to be replaced, and the frame sandblasted and/or repaired before bodywork and paint as per standard practice. Many don't even install the subframe until after paint and the nose is bolted on first.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 02:18:35 PM »
Any idea what this was?
.... photos removed for brevity....
I am not sure how bad it is yet, but I will find out soon enough. It looks like the subframe washers have disintegrated. When I loosened them up with the impact driver, the old parts just crumbled into dust. I am hoping that the subframe is ok. And that it does not need to be removed and repaired.
The original plan was not to remove the subframe, but that plan may change, depending on the severity of the rust damage.
If anyone has experienced this situation before I would love to hear about it and hear about some solutions to this potentially nasty situation.
that looks like a mixture of rusted down metal and dirt to me...  You're up north where they salt roads?
You definitely should pull the subframe and derust it, treat it, prime/paint it ..  after all ..  our PRIMARY task with these old cars is to PRESERVE.. :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
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tmodel66

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 04:10:36 PM »
By all means pull the subframe and inspect, clean, repair if necessary, prime with epoxy and paint. I think you will regret it down the road if you don't.
Daniel  
'69 SS 350/4 speed  Fathom Green--POP

Mike S

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 05:41:46 PM »
 Not meaning add to your fears (well maybe...) if the body mounts are that bad then I suspect the metal contact under them may be rusted q lot and if too much then the rubber mount can eventually push through the chassis and you'll have sag. There are repair kits sold to weld in round plates where the mounts sit on the chassis rails. You also want to inspect where the rubber meets the floor boards to make sure it not rusting in that direction. Like others have said, if you don't address this now you will likely so soon afterwards.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 07:56:07 PM »
Thanks guys that is all good info. Looks like I will drop the subframe and and inspect and repair now while I am at this stage.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2013, 03:18:53 AM »
Good deal Mike deciding on removing the sub-frame as you will have work to do. But make it fun and fill in the pits so it looks new after you have addressed any fatique areas. When a hood is open the sub-frame is very visible so take advantage of it. Long term you will be glad you did.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
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69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 04:47:50 AM »
Good deal Mike deciding on removing the sub-frame as you will have work to do. But make it fun and fill in the pits so it looks new after you have addressed any fatique areas. When a hood is open the sub-frame is very visible so take advantage of it. Long term you will be glad you did.


Thanks Chick. I will take all the great advice and apply it. I guess the next question is, once it is all cleaned up and repaired, it will be paint vs powder coating. What did you use on your subframe.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 11:59:34 AM »
Good deal Mike deciding on removing the sub-frame as you will have work to do. But make it fun and fill in the pits so it looks new after you have addressed any fatique areas. When a hood is open the sub-frame is very visible so take advantage of it. Long term you will be glad you did.


We used Dupont hot rod black but you can go many ways with it.

Thanks Chick. I will take all the great advice and apply it. I guess the next question is, once it is all cleaned up and repaired, it will be paint vs powder coating. What did you use on your subframe.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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Kelley W King

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2013, 02:11:47 PM »
Even though powder coating is not original I did it and am very pleased with it. I piled the subframe, A arms, inner fender wells and anything else black on a pallet and took the whole load to coater. He told me the price would be based on how long it took to sand blast it. When I picked it up for $600.00 and saw how the powder coat went places that I could not paint I loaded the rear sub frame, rear end housing and anything else I could and went back with another load. If you really want original you can still paint over it but the guy mixed the color so good I did not. People at shows often say what paint is that because it looks so good then I tell them it is not paint.
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68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »
I think powder coating is great! But if you have pits in the sub-frame, rear, whatever, your going to see them after powdercoating, hence the reason for using traditional painting techniques if some fill in and there are needed. Sub-frames around the battery area normally have pitting and when I see an outstanding looking car with a pitted sub-frame it just takes so much away.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 12:57:22 AM »
I am thinking I may paint it when the underside gets painted. They should be the same color correct? I am going to blast it myself.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

z28z11

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 02:25:05 AM »
Not to add to your task, but you need to consider the inside of the sub as well. If you don't have a stripper (read as alkaline immersion company) near you, I suggest using a converter, or a system like Eastwood's internal spray coating, to treat the inside of the frame while you're treating the outside to a restoration. Imagine how much is inside, out of sight, that could rear up and show from the inside/out one day -

Just my opinion -

Regards,
Steve 
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77/M20/VE3 LeMans/W
1969 L78 X66/N66 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2013, 05:26:02 AM »
I am thinking I may paint it when the underside gets painted. They should be the same color correct? I am going to blast it myself.
As several people have noted, you have some *repair* issues on your subframe, and possibly your floor, before yuo get to the paint stage.   The subframe should be removed to allow the repair process to be completed properly.   Re color:   The subrame was 'coated' or possibly dipped in a black semi gloss paint.   I used 'GM reconditioning black' which I believe best emulates the factory coating, although better paints exist for maximum protection.   The floor on my car has areas of 'gray', areas of black, and areas of body color (orange in my case).   It's clear that achieving a 'nice even color' on the bottom of the floor was not a consideration.   The first paint applied was likely for corrosion protection, and after that it seems it was 'over spray' from other paint processes.   if you want your floor 'pretty', then you could certainly pick a color (gray, black, or body color) and make it all the same, but I don't consider that to be 'original'.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
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69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2013, 06:34:20 AM »
Hey Gary. Since my car has already been painted and I am doing everything backwards, I am leaning towards just painting the bottom black. Was think a 60% gloss. Considering the same for the subframe, firewall & inner fenders.

Current plan is to remove the subframe and sand blast it. Remove the A-Arms and rebuild them. Then most likely paint them or powder coat them. Also paint the subframe after what ever damage needs to be repaired. I don't think there is any damage to my floor, but will confirm that soon. So far the bottom of the car is like new, as it was covered in dealer installed undercoating. I suspect that the reason the subframe bushings and possibly the top of the subframe where the bushing are mounted, rusted due to moisture getting trapped between the rubber bushing and the metal bushing. Over time in our climate, they all fuse together due to trapped excessive moisture.

The same thing happened on my '68 Camaro driven in the same climate it's entire life. However the top of the subframe where the rear bushings meet the subframe, completely fussed to the subframe. Requiring major repair. Hopefully that will not be the case this time.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2013, 10:10:58 AM »
Hey Gary. Since my car has already been painted and I am doing everything backwards, I am leaning towards just painting the bottom black. Was think a 60% gloss. Considering the same for the subframe, firewall & inner fenders.


Research your thinking 60% gloss black Mike as I thought sub-frames, firewall, and underneath were 30% gloss black. That is what I have observed and noted. while many other components were in the 60% gloss black liike the inner fenders and a-arms.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 11:17:25 AM »
Hey Gary. Since my car has already been painted and I am doing everything backwards, I am leaning towards just painting the bottom black. Was think a 60% gloss. Considering the same for the subframe, firewall & inner fenders.


Research your thinking 60% gloss black Mike as I thought sub-frames, firewall, and underneath were 30% gloss black. That is what I have observed and noted. while many other components were in the 60% gloss black liike the inner fenders and a-arms.

Hey Chick, last time I painted the subframe firewall and inner fenders, SEM Trim Black and I was not crazy about the result. I was told that it is about 30% gloss. However. Having an original paint Z/28 in my garage, shows me that SEM Trim black does not look like the original finishes on this particular car. Even though the paint is 43 years old, it still has a deeper black look and a bit of a sheen.

I am going to try to match the finishes as on the original car.

Her is the original paint on the bottom of my car. It was covered for 43 years with undercoating, and when I removed the undercoating the original paint was revealed. Obviously different light affects how it looks when the picture is taken, so perhaps these pictures are not the best representation. However in person, there is a noticeable difference between all of the finishes. I will take a look at your build thread for a reference.



Here is a picture of what I am thinking of going with on the bottom of my car.





Here is the current finish on my car with SEM Trim Black


Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis (floor paint-orig)
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 01:40:18 PM »
Here are a few photos of my original '69 Z28 floorpan, after a bit of cleaning in this last year; it's not perfectly cleaned, but it's clean enough that one can see the various paints which hit the floor (before lying on my back for a few weeks cleaning with simple green, water, etc, it was 'dirt'... :) .   
This car was never undercoated and spent it's entire life in the north Alabama area; it was driven regularly for 10 yrs or so, but since then has been in my conditioned garage.   As you can see, it has areas of black, gray and color (orange) depending on where the overspray from body painting could reach.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
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69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 01:51:58 PM »
A few more photos of my original floor since someone had asked me a few months ago to post some, and I'd never taken the time to reduce photo size til now.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Mike S

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 02:24:58 PM »
 Those pictures are one heck of a fine example of what an original undercarriage finish is instead of the all black show paint jobs.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 08:51:38 PM »
My car had virtually no overspray, at least after I removed the undercoating. However when I dropped the tank, it was grey underneath. So what was the black colour? A primer of finish paint? Just curious what the paint sequence was, since I have black everywhere except under the tank.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 09:14:18 PM »
JohnZ could probably respond to how the factory did it, but on mine it *seemed* to be 'black underneath'.. and it seemed to be a high quality tough black.  I suspect that was the corrosion protection for the basic body, then the gray and/or brown primers (probably overspray during body paint), and then the orange overspray... with also some 'black overspray from when they painted the rockers and firewall..  That's just my guess from what I observed while cleaning under my floor.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

69Z28freak

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2013, 01:06:32 AM »
JohnZ could probably respond to how the factory did it, but on mine it *seemed* to be 'black underneath'.. and it seemed to be a high quality tough black.  I suspect that was the corrosion protection for the basic body, then the gray and/or brown primers (probably overspray during body paint), and then the orange overspray... with also some 'black overspray from when they painted the rockers and firewall..  That's just my guess from what I observed while cleaning under my floor.

Sounds about right to me Gary. You car looks great underneath. The original paint Z28 in our shop has no other color present except black underneath. Noi trace of any primer yet, but I have not looked under the gas tank yet. For the most part all of the black looks the same, however I could be wrong since its all black.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

Mike S

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2013, 01:25:02 AM »
The under body finish was been discussed in detail a few times and has led to some interesting facts. It seems the color of the primer varied from year to year with the color ranging from gray dominant to black dominant and some owners reported red. Which plant (NOR vs. LOS) likely had differences too in the color though I doubt it mattered what was used.
This URL explains the body paint process especially the underbody in the Paint Shop Operations section: http://camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#fisher

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

lynnbilodeau

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2013, 01:11:08 AM »
Mine was NOT black underneath.  Very dark gray back to the axle then much lighter gray.  I duplicated it using Sherwin Williams Q seal mixed with a bit of RM black lacquer.  It is a much tougher finish than straight lacquer.  For the lighter gray axle back, I just didn't add any black lacquer.
Not sure why the two colors.   Also the only place on mine where overspray was clearly evident was forward of the rear axle.  Must have had some really high pressure guns going.  I painted with hvlp so my overspray didn't reach that far.  Because my car is black, the overspray on the front 2/3 would barely show anyway.

Funny that it would have shown up there because whoever painted mine missed part of the lower tail panel completely with top coat.

BillOhio

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2013, 03:16:51 AM »
My car had 2 colors of primer. Lighter gray in front foot area and the top of the tunnel. I did a lot of looking for paint and used sikkens rally black. Turned out gorgeous. I wanted a paint that would use hardener and a good sheen. Its a little pricey but very pleased
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2013, 03:38:19 AM »
...
Funny that it would have shown up there because whoever painted mine missed part of the lower tail panel completely with top coat.
The lower the painter got to get under the valence and rockers, the more overspray there would be on the floor....
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Sauron327

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2013, 11:22:16 AM »
There are many threads on here with photos and info about the various undercarrage colors, and why they vary in hue and coverage. You'll also find that a person did not shoot the car's color, it was automated.

lynnbilodeau

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2013, 04:03:18 PM »
You'll also find that a person did not shoot the car's color, it was automated.
Yeah, I thought about that as I was typing.  Regardless of how it was done, someone or something missed a quite a bit of area on the bottom of the tail panel.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2013, 04:06:46 AM »
There are many threads on here with photos and info about the various undercarrage colors, and why they vary in hue and coverage. You'll also find that a person did not shoot the car's color, it was automated.
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.
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lynnbilodeau

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2013, 06:32:10 PM »
Well then, the "air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports" missed part of my tail panel.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2013, 01:38:30 AM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.

Was the Norwood Camaro plant included on that list of 'automated' paint plants (in 1969) John???
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2013, 04:46:23 PM »
What year did chevrolet begin using automated robots for painting car bodies?

Painting robots weren't introduced in GM assembly plants until the mid-80's, and weren't in widespread use until the mid-90's. Exterior painting was "automated" in some plants in the late 60's, but it was done with air motor-powered reciprocating spray guns on fixed supports, not with robots.

Was the Norwood Camaro plant included on that list of 'automated' paint plants (in 1969) John???

Yes - Norwood used the air-driven overhead and side-mounted reciprocating guns for the horizontal and vertical surfaces; other areas (cut-ins, rear end, etc.) were done manually.
'69 Z/28
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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2013, 05:09:29 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2013, 04:57:50 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.
'69 Z/28
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68camaroz28

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 12:35:30 AM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.

John, is it true that one issue the Fisher side had with the recip guns if paint change (switching colors) was made between cars and a little too late from the more inexperienced relief workers the resultant color was just a tad off on the frontal area? I've read that was/might have been one reason the Chevrolet side had inspectors to inspect incoming bodies from the Fisher side with paint chips! And in the first gen life through the 1969 model year was the Chevrolet side still dependent upon experienced painters/tinters to mix paint for matching?
Chick
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69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
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JohnZ

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 02:57:59 PM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

The Fisher side at Norwood had the recip guns, but the Chevrolet side didn't - the Chevy paint shop was all manual, thus subject to more process variation.

John, is it true that one issue the Fisher side had with the recip guns if paint change (switching colors) was made between cars and a little too late from the more inexperienced relief workers the resultant color was just a tad off on the frontal area? I've read that was/might have been one reason the Chevrolet side had inspectors to inspect incoming bodies from the Fisher side with paint chips! And in the first gen life through the 1969 model year was the Chevrolet side still dependent upon experienced painters/tinters to mix paint for matching?

Paint was a very complex operation, with an enormous number of variables that had to be controlled constantly to produce consistent results, especially at Norwood, where Fisher and Chevrolet had their own completely separate Paint Shops. Paint operations are covered in some detail in the CRG "First-Generation Camaro Assembly Process" report.
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paceme

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2013, 03:04:24 AM »
Thanks John!   That's new information to me, and beneficial knowing that.  I assume your explanation referred to the Norwood Fisher body plant?   
What about the paint on the front fenders, hood, valence, and other parts painted in the Norwood assembly plant??   
Were those parts painted with an automated system? or manually painted?  I'm curious because the 'inner' portions of my front fenders (the part inside the engine compartment) didn't seem to get full coverage; as if the painter sprayed from above and the under areas where there were contours, didn't get much paint...  Is that typical of factory painted fenders on a '69 Camaro?   
Maybe Steve S. has some information on that as well from his survivor/original judging activity?

Hi Gary,

Coverage on the inner (engine compartment side) of the front fenders is typically thin . There are many bends in that area and some area received very light dusting/overspray. In addition there are variations in color shades between the Fisher painted assembly and the Chevrolet front clip. Not always noticeaple, but it certainly was an issue. Look closely at original paint cars. The most noticeable example I know of was my 19k mile Tahoe Turquois 67 rs/ss L78. Beautiful original paint, but the front clip varied several shades from the doors back.

Regarding Vintage Cerification (survivor) judging. Typically factory blemishes /anomalies (color variations ) are not deductions. Originality and preservation are the key criteria for our program.
Steve Shauger
Vintage Certification™ Program, Providing Recognition And Status To Unrestored Vehicles. Website www.vintagecertification.com

69Z28-RS

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2013, 03:34:27 AM »
Thanks Steve,

I had always suspected that my front clip had been repainted due to those two things:  1) slight difference from the paint from firewall back, and 2) thin coverage on the inner fender area...   Now I'm not sure....  :)

Gary
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
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firstgenaddict

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »
Here are a few pics of the black RS/Z's undercarriage....remember this is a black car so most of the floors would have body color overspray (black)

Frame rails... GRAY



Floor pans with Gray


inside floors grey and red with black overspray



James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2013, 11:31:30 PM »
James, thanks for the interesting pictures.  My blue car was Nor built 11A, car is all black underneath except for just below the firewall and forward 6" of the floor. That area is grey primer. Ignore the orange repaint in pictures. My frame rails looked grey also but I took a scotchbrite pad to them and it was black underneath the grey. I thought maybe they are galvanized steel and the grey coming thru was do to the zinc. It only showed up on the rear frame rails and the square box at the front of the rail. My floor looked just like your Blue Z, but not so nice. Had the same blue overspray on the lower ribs, wheel wells, trunk pan etc. The interior of the black car shows allot of red primer before the grey primer and paint, where on my car the red was covered up more but still visible. I just got my car out of the paint shop and trying to decide if I should attempt to duplicate the grey primer & runs on the front floor. The paint ran out of the seam and scallop cuts under the toe boards. We are thinking the paint guns were cleaned out and sprayed into pockets for the sub frame mounts. It shows signs of black and grey paint leaking out. Looking for an opinion and or advice at this point. George

NoYenko

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Re: Subframe Crisis
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2013, 11:33:04 PM »
Front floor area.