Author Topic: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR  (Read 13695 times)

kdka

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CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« on: November 07, 2005, 12:42:37 PM »
What is correct paint/sealer to be used for underneath '69 camaro convertible body shell. The car upper body has recently been painted white, original color. Also which areas, if any of the underbody receive different color or types of paint/sealers?
thanks.

68rsssrag

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 02:44:32 PM »
Depending on where the car was built. My Norwwod is all 30 degree semigloss black. This applies to underbody. inside floors, etc.

Arno

william

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 06:55:30 PM »
Having spent more time under 1st gen Camaros than in them I assure you they were not uniformly 30% gloss black.

It is likely the 1st painting step after the body shell was fabbed was to coat the underbody with some sort of black finish. The next step was grey primer, this being done with doors & trunk lid attached as there is no paint under the hinges. This was done manually until 1970 when bodies were dipped in red primer. The undercarriage was not masked during primer app and there is always primer on the underbody in varying degrees. The trans tunnel on our '67 was almost entirely grey. The final color coat was also done without masking the underbody which is quite obvious when looking at an OE paint Camaro in a lighter color. I've seen Z11 underbodies that were almost completely white. At some point the firewall blackout was applied. This was done with a masking unit loosely placed over the cowl. This left a feathered edge across the top, not the taped line incorrectly done on many restorations. There was a final underbody step that involved touching up areas that were visible such as the rear wheel wells. Take the rear axle snubber brackets off a '69 and you will find body color on the frame rails. On Van Nuys Camaros the fuel tanks were often painted during this step. All wheel wells then had undercoating applied.

The beautiful, uniform 30% gloss black underbody is show car stuff. They did not look like that as built.

68rsssrag

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2005, 05:25:28 AM »
William

You are correct but the question was the underside of the car. I've seen lots of unrestored Norwood cars and the underbody is 30 degree black applied way upstream, this was similar to the firewall spray but he latter was hand applied and usually was a bit on the grey side of black for some reason. John Z did a great list of the various finishes and the production processes in the plant for how and when paint was applied on TeamCamaro a year or so ago. Worth the serach and read.

Arno

william

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2005, 06:25:06 PM »
Arno I've been involved with the cars for 30+ years and know whereof I speak.

Chassis, underbody, undercarriage call it what you want. From the rear axle forward they have primer and body-color overspray in varying degrees. There have been several excellent chassis photos of OE paint cars posted and they all have overspray: Charlie Lillards Daytona yellow '69 Z was about 50% yellow underneath. An old issue of the Camaro enthusiast had chassis photos of a Hugger orange '69 SS coupe, plenty of orange on the floor pans. They also did a spread on a Z11 that had so much grey primer on the underbody they re-did it that way. The b&w underbody photos of the Daytona yellow #3 ZL1 in the 8-69 Hi-Perf Cars clearly show a yellow or grey underbody as it is much lighter than the subframe.

John Z worked for Chevrolet. The bodies were painted by Fisher before they "went through the wall" to Chevrolet.

Once again, the beautiful, uniform 30% gloss black underbody is show car stuff. They did not look like that as built.

Oaklyss

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 04:51:23 AM »
That is my original paint 69 Hugger SS coupe in that old issue of Camaro Enthusiest :). Car is near mint and never driven in the rain, thats why the underbody is in such good shape. It looks better now that I cleaned up under there. Yes, it has orange overspray on the bottom, mostly on the floor ridges that would catch the paint from the sprayer. Also has drips from the primer on the rear frame rails.
69 RSSS ZL-2 4 speed, mint unrestored 04A LA built-SOLD
1962 Oldsmobile Jetfire, worlds first Turbocharged Production car
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1972 AMX 401 4 speed, cowl induction, twin-grip, A/C, unrestored, original paint

JohnZ

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2005, 04:48:16 PM »
I think I pointed out in my "First-Generation Camaro Assembly Process" paper that the underbody appears as primer, with varying degrees of color overspray from the side guns that sprayed the bottom of the rockers, as William noted. Some have more than others - my '69 02D car has a LOT of body color on the underbody. Not many Chevrolet folks ever set foot on the Fisher side of the plant, but I was one of them - I worked closely with Fisher Body Production Engineering during the year prior to GMAD taking over all the Fisher/Chevrolet assembly plants.
'69 Z/28
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68rsssrag

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2005, 05:31:11 AM »
At the risk of prolonging the debate I just want to clarify my point. The primer process as applied resulted in what looks like a 30 degree gloss which is what you are all saying. The overspray issue is another dimension and I completely agree on the amount and variation car ot car. I am finishing a Norwood 1968 SS/RS BB convertible now and since the exterior panels like header, valance, etc were hung in the window openings and the body was very open during color application the result was an inside color that appeared red primer vs the black everywhere else. It took me an email exchange with John to realize it was the red exterior rough overspay on the black that I was looking at.

Whether or not you would ever seriously want to do such an overspray in restoring a car is, in my mind very questionable so in the end it isn't "show car" I care about as much as what the factory intended at the time. I'm not a fan of overspray on restored cars and I know many judges that do not think it a necessary evil as well.

Cheers

Arno

william

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2005, 06:25:01 PM »
I was fortunate to be involved in the restoration of 2 high-end cars: a '67 Z/28 and a '69 ZL1. You may be suprised to hear that under my direction NEITHER was done with any underbody overspray. Both have the nice uniform 30% gloss black finish.  My reasoning was that it is sort of expected [even 10 years ago] and it is difficult to reproduce overspray correctly given the limitations of most paint facilities.

Were I to get involved in another nut-and-bolt resto today [pass the Tums...] I would seriously consider it however. Brian Caudell did an orange COPO Camaro some years back with underbody overspray and did a nice job of it. 

JohnZ

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2005, 12:31:25 AM »
I am finishing a Norwood 1968 SS/RS BB convertible now and since the exterior panels like header, valance, etc were hung in the window openings and the body was very open during color application the result was an inside color that appeared red primer vs the black everywhere else.Arno

Just to clarify, the header panel and front valance were Chevrolet sheet metal, and were painted with the hood and fenders on the Chevy side of the plant; the cowl vent grille was the only panel painted by Fisher Body loose on the car.
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Steve68

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2005, 02:03:30 AM »
William

You are correct but the question was the underside of the car. I've seen lots of unrestored Norwood cars and the underbody is 30 degree black applied way upstream, this was similar to the firewall spray but he latter was hand applied and usually was a bit on the grey side of black for some reason. John Z did a great list of the various finishes and the production processes in the plant for how and when paint was applied on TeamCamaro a year or so ago. Worth the serach and read.

Arno


Perhaps John would consider placing this "list" on our site as a CRG Report.

x77-69z28

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 03:53:46 AM »
during the current frame off on my 67 rs/ss 350, there is a ton ov factory overspray up under the car. semi gloss black and red oxide primer. i have replicated it and sprayed the overspray while the body was completely disassembled. no springs, frame engine trans etc. it looks awesome. if someone would have told me fifteen years ago that i would be spraying overspray on my beautiful 30% gloss floor, i would have told you you were nuts! these cars have become like corvettes during restoration. i even ran the paint on my control arms. it is a sickness i tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
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70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
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Dave69x33

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2006, 12:40:15 AM »
My Norwood 69Z was built 1st week of May.  It is LeMans Blue and the underside was a gray primer color with a speckle, light gray/white color, particularly thru the middle area of the trans tunnel.  When I removed the fuel line clips along on the inside area of the frame rails, it was gray.  I should have taken more pics under the gas tank area but this area appeared to be painted black. This may have been done during a repaint years earlier. Unfortunately I only have 35mm pics of these.  I need to scan them and have the available in digital format.  Thus, I had my underside painted gray in about 30% gloss. 

I was told that through the production run of 69's out of Norwood, the undersides have been seen in several colors: black, gray and a greenish gray color. 

John Z.Is there any truth to this?  Did it depend on the top body color, or was this  simply variations in batch primer colors? 

JohnZ

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2006, 04:24:31 PM »
I haven't seen the unmolested underbody on enough original cars to give you a good answer on any change in primer colors; William probably has better data. Any exterior color overspray from the rocker guns would be the same color as the "lower" color on the car, with some black if the car had black rockers. Nobody in the color spray booths got on their knees to spray under the body, as most of the color coat was done by automatic reciprocating guns on guide rails, not people with manual spray guns.
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
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Dusk Blue Z

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Re: CORRECT UNDER BODY COLOR
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2006, 02:05:33 AM »
Dave, I just saw a nice clear picture posted somewhere recently. I think the post was for shifter mounting or the shift rods, anyway the background was the tunnel that was just as you described. I also have a 5A Z and you described the underside of my car as well. I am just getting ready to send it out for some fresh paint and really did not want to do the 30% black. I'll try and post the picture if I can find it or take one from my car. If some pictures show up, I'd sure like to hear from anyone that would know how to duplicate it.
Mike

Found it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 03:19:37 PM by Dusk Blue Z »