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Author Topic: Clones, tributes, recreations..  (Read 2922 times)
GTMeach
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« on: January 10, 2013, 10:41:54 AM »

I certainly don't want to create a long discussion here, just a comment about our hobby in general. I've enjoyed searching through Ebay for many years looking at only first generation Camaros. (And a few other makes and models). I'm just really getting tired of all the clones, tributes, and recreations. I realize cloning is a good way to enjoy a rare Camaro without the real worry of wrecking it, and that's fine. But we've gone overboard. Now, these so-called classic car dealers are doing it. Complete with fake trim tags.  I don't consider them enthusiasts. I find it sad what is happening to the hobby. I bought my first 67 Camaro in 1982 and I remember back in the 80's how we drooled over  Z's, Yenkos. etc. But now, there are so many well-done clones, when I see a real one is kind of like 'so what?' I'm just saying, I think we've over-indulged. Too many people wanting everything. Over-demand. It's killing the Camaro hobby for me. Just my thoughts anyway..
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lakeholme
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:08 PM »

Good point, but we're experiencing what pre-war owners went through a couple of decades ago. It's sad, but it's nothing new.
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Phillip
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Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
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"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 09:38:11 PM »

Lately, it has me thinking of selling my car of 33 years. It is real,it is authentic and its been mine since 1980. Sadly, I had to "cocoon" it for several years and it is still not finished. When I bought it, I really thought I had something, a real "muscle car"and the stuff that made it real was all the proof needed(meaning the sum of its scarce parts and options). Back in the day, rare parts where just that and repro's where not heard of. The biggest thing you would find was a set of Z emblems on a base car an SS wasn't worth faking yet. The emblems were about as far as the clone went and it was just a "look" of muscle most were trying to achieve. Now, everyone scrutinizes my car as if they will uncover some evidence of fakery. It seems that I have to prove it is real whereas it used to stand on its own merit. I, myself, would be afraid to buy a 1st Gen. Camaro today with all that is reproduced and changed options etc...and I am pretty knowledgable about 69's in particular. I really appreciate this site and it has helped me in my restoration with lots of useful info. It has also helped others know what they have to do to pull off a fake or a clone(meaning fake that is disclosed) which is an unfortunate and, I suspect, an unintended consequence of the site. Then the price of correct parts has this once pedestrian, common man's ride something only the privledged can afford. I want my car as right as can be, but it has gotten beyond my resources, money wise, to finish the car correctly. Should I compromise by putting Chinese parts on my pride and joy and compromise its authenticity as well? I mean, how much is the correct smog pulley going to to cost?...all my retirement savings I guess. It would be hard to give up an "old friend" after 33 years. The car's value is secondary to me, I just liked the car and it has sentimental value to me,but I'll admit,it was reassurring that the old girl would increase in value while I enjoyed her. Now, I am not so sure. Without documentation, which my car has no provenance that I possess, it is just another car that cannot be proved real. By the way, it is a REAL Z27/Z22,X22,12B,Nor,L78,M20,712,72
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
Mike S
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 10:05:22 PM »

   I've had mine for 30+ years too and have absolutely no intentions to sell them plus they are willed to my grown children. Until my demise I will continue to enjoy them.  I don't care if the market drops out on collector cars...and maybe is should because greed takes over like everywhere else in life and ruins it. All I have for documentation is an UOIT for one car and nothing for the other. And there is plenty of false documents that look damn authentic these days to make original ones a moot benefit. But, as far as the 'doubting Thomasa's' go, I don't have to prove anything because I know my cars histories and doubters will always be just that. If they don't believe what I have is real...well then they can read my license plate  Wink
 Don't despair....enjoy them while you still can. Fifty years from now, who will care?

Mike
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z28z11
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 10:50:52 PM »

I've had my first Camaro since '73. I hate fakes, but I don't mind clones too much, as long as someone doesn't try to pass them off as legit. In any event, my Camaros have increased in value every year, and I take absolute pride in owning them. Like Mike, I hope to pass them down to my kids as a legacy and an inheritance, and I hope that I can do that without having to part with any of the cars to afford their continuing educations. BTW, my first '69 Z, the '73 purchase, has been on hold since the birth of my first child - your responsibilities change, but your dreams don't.
 
This hobby is total therapy to me - I enjoy scrounging for parts, attending swap meets and shows, talking to my friends and fellow owners about them. They are a link to our past, a time when things were very different and life seemed a great deal less complicated than it has become today.

Keep the faith - and keep your car.

Regards,
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 11:03:30 PM »

Steve,
Are you going to the swap meet in Nashville on the 18-19th?
Gary
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
ggtsvnv
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 11:07:04 PM »

I certainly don't want to create a long discussion here, just a comment about our hobby in general. I've enjoyed searching through Ebay for many years looking at only first generation Camaros. (And a few other makes and models). I'm just really getting tired of all the clones, tributes, and recreations. I realize cloning is a good way to enjoy a rare Camaro without the real worry of wrecking it, and that's fine. But we've gone overboard. Now, these so-called classic car dealers are doing it. Complete with fake trim tags.  I don't consider them enthusiasts. I find it sad what is happening to the hobby. I bought my first 67 Camaro in 1982 and I remember back in the 80's how we drooled over  Z's, Yenkos. etc. But now, there are so many well-done clones, when I see a real one is kind of like 'so what?' I'm just saying, I think we've over-indulged. Too many people wanting everything. Over-demand. It's killing the Camaro hobby for me. Just my thoughts anyway..


   I agree with a lot of this.  I remember when this was a working mans; blue collar hobby. When a lot of the fun was scrounging around junk yards and swap meets for those elusive parts.  Now you can find most as reproduction, or click on e-bay and spend a large chunk of money and have it. One thing with ebay is are you getting real parts or restamped sometimes it is hard to tell.

   And I totally agree that it has taken a lot of fun out of it.

  As for the doubters I feel like others have said. I know that my 68 is a Z/28 and not a clone or whatever term someone wants to use; and if the doubters don't believe it then too bad because I bought it for me to enjoy not to convince someone else of what it is.
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z28z11
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 11:22:19 PM »

Steve,
Are you going to the swap meet in Nashville on the 18-19th?
Gary

Gary,

Hopefully. I'm usually at the Stones River AACA swap meet in Feb as well. I enjoy these meets - I have bought a lot of great parts at both over the years. They are the ray of sunshine in the bleak winter months -

Regards,
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
z28z11
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 11:26:32 PM »


  As for the doubters I feel like others have said. I know that my 68 is a Z/28 and not a clone or whatever term someone wants to use; and if the doubters don't believe it then too bad because I bought it for me to enjoy not to convince someone else of what it is.

Amen
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
1969 Z28 X77 LeMans/W
1969 X66 L78 Cortez/BVT
1969 Z11 L48
lcmc
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 11:36:58 PM »

The sad part about all this is that some day nobody will know the difference. Once our generation is gone who will be around to tell whether a car is real or not.
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Danny
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 01:18:10 AM »

Danny,
    That was my thought all the way through reading this topic.  As in my case, the original person who restored/modified the car may not have had any idea of passing it off as the "real deal",  but years down the road a future owner might.   I plan to pass mine down to my son, it was his first car.  After that,?HuhHuh
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1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
Original Engine   Z - Tribute
Mike C.    NW - Illinois
Kelley W King
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 08:41:02 AM »

I feel like most everyone that visits this are in this as a hobby and not for the money, even though we like to think our cars are worth what we have in them. I enjoy the shows and swap meets here in NC (Charlotte Metrolina is tommorow) and looking for that rare part I am missing which occasionally I find or searching the orphans in hopes that my L78 block or my original DZ block will be there. Some things I find after years of looking but since it is my hobby I have the time to search. As far as clones all of my cars are real except my 67 Chevelle SS which I bought as a clone and paid clone pricing for it.  I wanted a clone so I could modify it if I wanted. Enjoy the hobby.
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69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
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Dusk_Blue_Z
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 02:24:41 PM »

As a younger guy in the hobby (31), I feel lucky to have CRG as a resource for our cars. Even luckier that I have (and drive regularly in the summer) my dad's Z28 he bought new and kept all these years. I've often argued that the collector car hobby will die a slow death, namely because of the price of the cars (older guys selling them, youth not interested to buy nor have the means). But I'm not so sure anymore. I do with my kids as my parents did with me, go to car shows, summer cruises, keep them interested in the cars. I feel like the torch will continue to be passed.

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

And you old timers, keep up the good work. Maintaining the history of these wonderful cars is in your hands, until the young guys are willing to learn from you anyway.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 04:57:53 PM »

You're a 'young, but SMART, 31 yr old'.. Blue..  Smiley
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
ggtsvnv
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 12:24:06 AM »

As a younger guy in the hobby (31), I feel lucky to have CRG as a resource for our cars. Even luckier that I have (and drive regularly in the summer) my dad's Z28 he bought new and kept all these years. I've often argued that the collector car hobby will die a slow death, namely because of the price of the cars (older guys selling them, youth not interested to buy nor have the means). But I'm not so sure anymore. I do with my kids as my parents did with me, go to car shows, summer cruises, keep them interested in the cars. I feel like the torch will continue to be passed.

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

And you old timers, keep up the good work. Maintaining the history of these wonderful cars is in your hands, until the young guys are willing to learn from you anyway.


   I agree with what you are saying and I have nothing against clones or tribute or what ever as long as people are up front about it.

   I do feel that in time these cars (67 to 72 muscle cars) will fade away some what from being the hot ticket.  I remember in the late 70's and early 80's when Camaro's were for the most part no big deal.  At the time the hot ticket to restore or mod was 55 to 57 chevys. I knew a guy in Alabama when I was stationed there in the army and he had 3 69 Z/28's sitting in his yard. None of them were close to perfect but all three ran and were easily restore able and in my 4 years down there I tried on many occasions to persuade him to sell me one of them or all. However he was using them to resto-mod a 55 hard top, a nomad, and a 57 hard top so he ended up pulling the drive trains to put into those. Then he parted out the rest of the cars and scrapped what the shells. But that was the way it was then. 
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