Clones, tributes, recreations..

[GTMeach]

I certainly don't want to create a long discussion here, just a comment about our hobby in general. I've enjoyed searching through Ebay for many years looking at only first generation Camaros. (And a few other makes and models). I'm just really getting tired of all the clones, tributes, and recreations. I realize cloning is a good way to enjoy a rare Camaro without the real worry of wrecking it, and that's fine. But we've gone overboard. Now, these so-called classic car dealers are doing it. Complete with fake trim tags.  I don't consider them enthusiasts. I find it sad what is happening to the hobby. I bought my first 67 Camaro in 1982 and I remember back in the 80's how we drooled over  Z's, Yenkos. etc. But now, there are so many well-done clones, when I see a real one is kind of like 'so what?' I'm just saying, I think we've over-indulged. Too many people wanting everything. Over-demand. It's killing the Camaro hobby for me. Just my thoughts anyway..

[lakeholme]

Good point, but we're experiencing what pre-war owners went through a couple of decades ago. It's sad, but it's nothing new.

[ko-lek-tor]

Lately, it has me thinking of selling my car of 33 years. It is real,it is authentic and its been mine since 1980. Sadly, I had to "cocoon" it for several years and it is still not finished. When I bought it, I really thought I had something, a real "muscle car"and the stuff that made it real was all the proof needed(meaning the sum of its scarce parts and options). Back in the day, rare parts where just that and repro's where not heard of. The biggest thing you would find was a set of Z emblems on a base car an SS wasn't worth faking yet. The emblems were about as far as the clone went and it was just a "look" of muscle most were trying to achieve. Now, everyone scrutinizes my car as if they will uncover some evidence of fakery. It seems that I have to prove it is real whereas it used to stand on its own merit. I, myself, would be afraid to buy a 1st Gen. Camaro today with all that is reproduced and changed options etc...and I am pretty knowledgable about 69's in particular. I really appreciate this site and it has helped me in my restoration with lots of useful info. It has also helped others know what they have to do to pull off a fake or a clone(meaning fake that is disclosed) which is an unfortunate and, I suspect, an unintended consequence of the site. Then the price of correct parts has this once pedestrian, common man's ride something only the privledged can afford. I want my car as right as can be, but it has gotten beyond my resources, money wise, to finish the car correctly. Should I compromise by putting Chinese parts on my pride and joy and compromise its authenticity as well? I mean, how much is the correct smog pulley going to to cost?...all my retirement savings I guess. It would be hard to give up an "old friend" after 33 years. The car's value is secondary to me, I just liked the car and it has sentimental value to me,but I'll admit,it was reassurring that the old girl would increase in value while I enjoyed her. Now, I am not so sure. Without documentation, which my car has no provenance that I possess, it is just another car that cannot be proved real. By the way, it is a REAL Z27/Z22,X22,12B,Nor,L78,M20,712,72

[Mike S]

   I've had mine for 30+ years too and have absolutely no intentions to sell them plus they are willed to my grown children. Until my demise I will continue to enjoy them.  I don't care if the market drops out on collector cars...and maybe is should because greed takes over like everywhere else in life and ruins it. All I have for documentation is an UOIT for one car and nothing for the other. And there is plenty of false documents that look damn authentic these days to make original ones a moot benefit. But, as far as the 'doubting Thomasa's' go, I don't have to prove anything because I know my cars histories and doubters will always be just that. If they don't believe what I have is real...well then they can read my license plate  
 Don't despair....enjoy them while you still can. Fifty years from now, who will care?

Mike

[z28z11]

I've had my first Camaro since '73. I hate fakes, but I don't mind clones too much, as long as someone doesn't try to pass them off as legit. In any event, my Camaros have increased in value every year, and I take absolute pride in owning them. Like Mike, I hope to pass them down to my kids as a legacy and an inheritance, and I hope that I can do that without having to part with any of the cars to afford their continuing educations. BTW, my first '69 Z, the '73 purchase, has been on hold since the birth of my first child - your responsibilities change, but your dreams don't.
 
This hobby is total therapy to me - I enjoy scrounging for parts, attending swap meets and shows, talking to my friends and fellow owners about them. They are a link to our past, a time when things were very different and life seemed a great deal less complicated than it has become today.

Keep the faith - and keep your car.

Regards,
Steve

[69Z28-RS]

Steve,
Are you going to the swap meet in Nashville on the 18-19th?
Gary

[ggtsvnv]

I certainly don't want to create a long discussion here, just a comment about our hobby in general. I've enjoyed searching through Ebay for many years looking at only first generation Camaros. (And a few other makes and models). I'm just really getting tired of all the clones, tributes, and recreations. I realize cloning is a good way to enjoy a rare Camaro without the real worry of wrecking it, and that's fine. But we've gone overboard. Now, these so-called classic car dealers are doing it. Complete with fake trim tags.  I don't consider them enthusiasts. I find it sad what is happening to the hobby. I bought my first 67 Camaro in 1982 and I remember back in the 80's how we drooled over  Z's, Yenkos. etc. But now, there are so many well-done clones, when I see a real one is kind of like 'so what?' I'm just saying, I think we've over-indulged. Too many people wanting everything. Over-demand. It's killing the Camaro hobby for me. Just my thoughts anyway..

   I agree with a lot of this.  I remember when this was a working mans; blue collar hobby. When a lot of the fun was scrounging around junk yards and swap meets for those elusive parts.  Now you can find most as reproduction, or click on e-bay and spend a large chunk of money and have it. One thing with ebay is are you getting real parts or restamped sometimes it is hard to tell.

   And I totally agree that it has taken a lot of fun out of it.

  As for the doubters I feel like others have said. I know that my 68 is a Z/28 and not a clone or whatever term someone wants to use; and if the doubters don't believe it then too bad because I bought it for me to enjoy not to convince someone else of what it is.

[z28z11]

Steve,
Are you going to the swap meet in Nashville on the 18-19th?
Gary

Gary,

Hopefully. I'm usually at the Stones River AACA swap meet in Feb as well. I enjoy these meets - I have bought a lot of great parts at both over the years. They are the ray of sunshine in the bleak winter months -

Regards,
Steve

[z28z11]

  As for the doubters I feel like others have said. I know that my 68 is a Z/28 and not a clone or whatever term someone wants to use; and if the doubters don't believe it then too bad because I bought it for me to enjoy not to convince someone else of what it is.

Amen

[lcmc]

The sad part about all this is that some day nobody will know the difference. Once our generation is gone who will be around to tell whether a car is real or not.

[MyRed67]

Danny,
    That was my thought all the way through reading this topic.  As in my case, the original person who restored/modified the car may not have had any idea of passing it off as the "real deal",  but years down the road a future owner might.   I plan to pass mine down to my son, it was his first car.  After that,?

[Kelley W King]

I feel like most everyone that visits this are in this as a hobby and not for the money, even though we like to think our cars are worth what we have in them. I enjoy the shows and swap meets here in NC (Charlotte Metrolina is tommorow) and looking for that rare part I am missing which occasionally I find or searching the orphans in hopes that my L78 block or my original DZ block will be there. Some things I find after years of looking but since it is my hobby I have the time to search. As far as clones all of my cars are real except my 67 Chevelle SS which I bought as a clone and paid clone pricing for it.  I wanted a clone so I could modify it if I wanted. Enjoy the hobby.

[Dusk_Blue_Z]

As a younger guy in the hobby (31), I feel lucky to have CRG as a resource for our cars. Even luckier that I have (and drive regularly in the summer) my dad's Z28 he bought new and kept all these years. I've often argued that the collector car hobby will die a slow death, namely because of the price of the cars (older guys selling them, youth not interested to buy nor have the means). But I'm not so sure anymore. I do with my kids as my parents did with me, go to car shows, summer cruises, keep them interested in the cars. I feel like the torch will continue to be passed.

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

And you old timers, keep up the good work. Maintaining the history of these wonderful cars is in your hands, until the young guys are willing to learn from you anyway.

[69Z28-RS]

You're a 'young, but SMART, 31 yr old'.. Blue.. 

[ggtsvnv]

As a younger guy in the hobby (31), I feel lucky to have CRG as a resource for our cars. Even luckier that I have (and drive regularly in the summer) my dad's Z28 he bought new and kept all these years. I've often argued that the collector car hobby will die a slow death, namely because of the price of the cars (older guys selling them, youth not interested to buy nor have the means). But I'm not so sure anymore. I do with my kids as my parents did with me, go to car shows, summer cruises, keep them interested in the cars. I feel like the torch will continue to be passed.

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

And you old timers, keep up the good work. Maintaining the history of these wonderful cars is in your hands, until the young guys are willing to learn from you anyway.

   I agree with what you are saying and I have nothing against clones or tribute or what ever as long as people are up front about it.

   I do feel that in time these cars (67 to 72 muscle cars) will fade away some what from being the hot ticket.  I remember in the late 70's and early 80's when Camaro's were for the most part no big deal.  At the time the hot ticket to restore or mod was 55 to 57 chevys. I knew a guy in Alabama when I was stationed there in the army and he had 3 69 Z/28's sitting in his yard. None of them were close to perfect but all three ran and were easily restore able and in my 4 years down there I tried on many occasions to persuade him to sell me one of them or all. However he was using them to resto-mod a 55 hard top, a nomad, and a 57 hard top so he ended up pulling the drive trains to put into those. Then he parted out the rest of the cars and scrapped what the shells. But that was the way it was then. 

[BULLITT65]

I am the other young guy on this site, and I agree with Dusk Blue. As much as I wish there weren't as many clones out there, at least they can be more affordable for those looking to get into the hobby.
I know my 5 year old son who is huge into all things with wheels, and will one day earn the keys to my Z, my daughters may get keys to the other vehicles I have been able to hold onto. There was a handful of us into muscle cars when I was in high school. So there is some nostalgia there for me. BUT there is not enough sons (or daughters for that matter), that will grow up to be future car enthusiasts. Even if every guy on this site gave their Camaro to their kids tomorrow, I would bet more than half would sell them for some perceived greater good.
I will teach my son (or my daughters if they are interested) how to rebuild a carburetor, and replace a set of drum brakes on one of these cars, as well as replacing a manual window regulator. He will gain any mechanical knowledge I posses. You need to be mechanically inclined to keep up on these cars. I just doubt there will be another generation that will have the passion for these cars. The muscle cars that get sold and trade hands or are barn finds now a days usually just find there way into an older gentleman's collection. They are not finding their ways into a fresh set of hands. I have a hard time seeing the hobby grow past the baby-boomers timeline.
Just my bleak prediction.
Hopefully I am wrong, I would love to see the hobby thriving when I am ready to take a dirt nap.

[janobyte]

Lately, it has me thinking of selling my car of 33 years. It is real,it is authentic and its been mine since 1980. Sadly, I had to "cocoon" it for several years and it is still not finished. When I bought it, I really thought I had something, a real "muscle car"and the stuff that made it real was all the proof needed(meaning the sum of its scarce parts and options). Back in the day, rare parts where just that and repro's where not heard of. The biggest thing you would find was a set of Z emblems on a base car an SS wasn't worth faking yet. The emblems were about as far as the clone went and it was just a "look" of muscle most were trying to achieve. Now, everyone scrutinizes my car as if they will uncover some evidence of fakery. It seems that I have to prove it is real whereas it used to stand on its own merit. I, myself, would be afraid to buy a 1st Gen. Camaro today with all that is reproduced and changed options etc...and I am pretty knowledgable about 69's in particular. I really appreciate this site and it has helped me in my restoration with lots of useful info. It has also helped others know what they have to do to pull off a fake or a clone(meaning fake that is disclosed) which is an unfortunate and, I suspect, an unintended consequence of the site. Then the price of correct parts has this once pedestrian, common man's ride something only the privledged can afford. I want my car as right as can be, but it has gotten beyond my resources, money wise, to finish the car correctly. Should I compromise by putting Chinese parts on my pride and joy and compromise its authenticity as well? I mean, how much is the correct smog pulley going to to cost?...all my retirement savings I guess. It would be hard to give up an "old friend" after 33 years. The car's value is secondary to me, I just liked the car and it has sentimental value to me,but I'll admit,it was reassurring that the old girl would increase in value while I enjoyed her. Now, I am not so sure. Without documentation, which my car has no provenance that I possess, it is just another car that cannot be proved real. By the way, it is a REAL Z27/Z22,X22,12B,Nor,L78,M20,712,72

Don't give up on parts !-My OE intake was Jet Hot coated over 20 years ago, too much of a risk to have it removed ,and I talked to everyone---including Jet Hot. Looks great, and no repairs---however a no-no for period correct. I've been looking since spring for another 67-68 intake--did not want to come $$ off the outrageous asking prices. Found an old tread on Team Camaro where someone had one for sale--fair price. Followed up on it to discover it was sold, but he had another one. Shot me some pics. VGC IMO. Quoted me an honest price so I sent a check out ( Owns a 69 Legends Z , gotta be ok ?--I hoped ) Intake came packaged like fragile china. Great shape and a late 67 date code. Also check on Craigslist N/E Ohio . Always seems to be a ton of extra "project parts" Picked up a set of Vintage Lakewood Traction bars for swap meet price a few weeks ago on Ebay--just got to be persistent and patient--at the same time.  Post some more pics of your car, love the history and see the old track is still operating in S/W Ohio.  Oh ,and don't sell--they "aint" costing you nothing sitting.  HAPPY HOLIDAYS

[DavidS]

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

I love all 3 of my first gens, but my 'clone' car is definitely the most fun.  

Clone car - A huge burnout up the street and I get a 10-beer salute from the neighbors. Definitely a fun car.  I have registered this car with the CRG as a 'clone'.



Numbers matching Z - I'm paranoid about even taking it to a local car show.

[69Z28-RS]

I love that white/black  sYc car.  *G*   and the rallye green Z28.   and wow, do your pix ever POP on that black background.  *G*

[Dusk_Blue_Z]

Wow, nice cars. You practice photography on the side too?

[6667ss138]

Both cars very nice!! Really like the Rallye Green Z

[janobyte]

Your "clone" looks  BD SS !! and beautiful Z ,best of both worlds.

[BULLITT65]

yes david give us some tips on how you got those pics of your cars please.

[MyRed67]

I love that white/black  sYc car.  *G*   and the rallye green Z28.   and wow, do your pix ever POP on that black background.  *G*

Both cars very nice!! Really like the Rallye Green Z

Agree 100%, those are some awesome looking cars.  A friend of mine in early 70's had a Rally Green Z like yours (minus urethane bumper) sitting on 15 X 8 in. 'Vette Rallys, always loved that car.

[69Z28freak]

As far as clones/tributes/recreations go, we shouldn't discourage that at all. I'm no better for having a real Z than the guy who has a clone. In essence, the guy with the clone is just trying to enjoy the hobby he otherwise might now be able to. Where a line should be draw (and has been for the most part, in thanks to CRG and TC), is to point out the 'clone' cars intentionally passed as real.

I love all 3 of my first gens, but my 'clone' car is definitely the most fun. 

Clone car - A huge burnout up the street and I get a 10-beer salute from the neighbors. Definitely a fun car.  I have registered this car with the CRG as a 'clone'.



Numbers matching Z - I'm paranoid about even taking it to a local car show.

Wow 2 great cars. The clone gets my respect. A nice car is a nice car. Period IMO clone or not. Counter fitting exists in all aspects of our lives. That seems to be the issue. I agree that clones, tributes, or recreations are part of the hobby and take nothing away from it. As we see from the fine example above, that Yenko clone is nicer that most of the cars for sale on ebay. Sorry to say but I don't agree with this thread. It's not clones, tributes, or recreations that are ruining the hobby. Its is the opportunists that are using the hobby for profit and taking advantage of those who are not educated enough to know the difference. It's a capitalists dream. And that my friends is what motivates people to push that envelope.

[DavidS]

Thanks guys!!!

The pictures were taken by Bruno Ratensperger in Old Saybrook CT.  He lives about an hour away from my house.  

It was a fun drive down to his place with the white car.    I had to do about an hour of cleaning after I got there though.

It was not nearly as much fun to trailer the Z, but I didn't have to do any major cleaning.


 

[KERR]

I think it depends on how the clone is done.   

Yes every time you get on Ebay, or autotraderclassics there are cars listed,  and most look good..  But most are thrown together to make a buck..    Ive seen only a few cloned cars that have had the time taken to make them correct..    Now would i be in for a cloned 69 copo,  YES..  But i would want it perfect,  chalk marking, correct wheels, correct 512 block,  stickers,  winters castings and the CHAMBERED EXHAUST!!!    That blows my mind when i see them on line..  people will pay $3-400 for a steering wheel then slap $69.99 flow masters under it.. 

i've been down the road of matching number perfect cars.   Yes they are nice to look at and talk about and see the look in people eyes as they are day dreaming about your car,   BUT,  in terms of Mid Year corvettes, 
I have a lot more fun,  a lot more stories, and lot more rummors floating around town and with friends of beating the ever living snot out of my dads old 67 vs perfect car   

To me its just hard to enjoy a perfect car,  your worried about everthing,  water, a rock chip,  if the exhaust gets to warm so it bakes the coatings,  etc etc etc..  Where as my dads old abused car,  I have no problems loading a friend up and side stepping the clutch at 6 or 7000 rpm and letting it eat.. That car has been abused from day one,  crashed a few times, and put up hurt, wet and sore a bunch of time...    Does it look bad,  YES, is it cool, YES!    With that said i do set back and look at the car,  and wish that it wasnt cracking,  wish someone had not keyed it a few years ago,  and bla bla bla...    But at the same time,  its fun.   Its like nice garage find / dont give a crap look lol..   

I have a neighbor that love cars, and has the money to back him,   In his ware house he has two or three shelby cobras,  a bunch of mustangs,  GT500-350 etc,  a few porsche speedester,  two 300 Sl gulwing cars,  a ferrari daytona  and the list goes on and on..   His daily ride is a 15 year old S class benz...  every now and he will go buy the house in a "cheaper" car from his collection..      But if that was Me,  id have a factory five or something that was exact clone of my cobra,  Id probably also do clone of that 300SL    
 
I bought my 69 camaro, to do a copo clone.   I wanted it exact,  have thought and planned for years on what to do and what i want and where to get the parts.   However ive changed what i wanted now do to what your saying that everyone wants to clone one, or has cloned one.   

My game plan now is still a copo clone,  wheels, paint interior,  i want to do the base car,  no console in the floor,  might even do radio and heater delete.. 
I want the chalk marking in the places you can see them and they will not wash off..   

But do a 632ci motor (or bigger) paint it all orange ( i know i know)  dress everthing on it correctley to look like the 427,  stickers and all,   then back it up with a tremec TR6060 or that T56.( 6 speed, close ration option,  same as M22 1-4) Either a ford 9 inch or maybe a 12 bolt,  with 4:10 or 4:56 gears,    then top it off with that new FAST fuel injection that looks like a carb....  build the motor on a 11.1 compression sp its pump gas friendly and go play dirty pool