Earliest Indy Pace Car 01C?

[sdkar]

Hey Guys,

I came across this and I am baffled by the VIN and the trim tag.  I feel this may be a fake but I am not 100% sure.  From what I understand, the pace cars were all 02D - 05A.  The earliest pace car build date I have seen is from the first of the festival cars at 607547.  This car is quite early, but may certainly be possible as it is close to when these were built.  Darn nice car and real nice price if it's real.  What do you guys think?

http://desert-autosport.ebizautos.com/webdetail.aspx?iid=9261023

[Mark]

Trim tag is a fake.

[jdv69z]

Unless I missed it, no where in the ad does it state that this is a Pace Car; Just says 69 convertible?

Jimmy V.

[69Z28-RS]

Yep... only the tag says 'Z11' with the color codes...  the other data on the 'supposedly fake tag' could be match to the original TT...?   in which case, someone may have a very original car EXCEPT for the colors and tag.   Does appear to be a very nice car if that is all that is faked....   trim tag and colors don't affect how it drives/looks..    ..  only how it's thought of by those deep into the hobby.

Gary

[sdkar]

Also, along with the Z11 trim tag, there is the slight matter of the door decals showing "Official Pace Car" which may be slightly misleading for prospective buyers wanting an Indy Pace Car, despite the advertisement heading not stating that this is an actual Pace Car. 

Those not as savvy as us guys here may think they are getting a very nice big block pace car at a decent price, when in all reality, they would be buying a nicely optioned convertible.


There is this item as well that makes all of us concerned...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Camaro-Trim-Tag-Cowl-Plate-Z11-Pace-Car-SS-Original-/110994617794?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d7cb75c2&vxp=mtr

Pop one of these on your appropriately VIN numbered convertible and with the correct paint job, you upped the value of your Camaro by $10K to $20K.




 

     

[bertfam]

There is this item as well that makes all of us concerned...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Camaro-Trim-Tag-Cowl-Plate-Z11-Pace-Car-SS-Original-/110994617794?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d7cb75c2&vxp=mtr

Pop one of these on your appropriately VIN numbered convertible and with the correct paint job, you upped the value of your Camaro by $10K to $20K.

For future searches:

NOR315579

[Mark]

Thats a good Z11 tag its an 04C tag, just floating around loose.

The fake one is"


VIN is 589611

So by the logic above. If I place an X33 on a trim tag and advertise it as a Camaro coupe, I should be OK, after all it's just a Camaro?

[69pace]

I agree that the Norwood body number sequence may in fact belong to that vehicle as born-with while the vin sequence puts it about 100 numbers before the last January vin posted in the database here.  Not so sure that the 1c would not be right for that set of numbers either, but as far as being a born Z11 never heard of one earlier then 2d.

But here is a bad thought my head has running today... what if this is the missing press conference pace car announcement mock up? That vehicle was originally just a production 396 pulled off the line that had its 396 badging removed when painted right, given houndstooth and orange door skins and paraded in front of the media as the Pace Car....  So 40 something years later someone finds the vehicle as is and restores the vehicle to the Pace Car rep Z-11 standards and feels the trim tag needs to represent Z11 and also adds back the 396 jewelry on the fenders?  Is that missing mock-up not a pace car replica? Maybe not a production marked Z-11 but hummm  I'm not so sure I'd kick it out of the barn? That particular vehicle has more rights then most to the party IMHO

[Mark]

Don't you think if that was the case it would be mentioned and touted in the ad, along with some kind of documentation?  It's just another clone, no different than a standard Camaro with an X33 or X77 trim tag.

The only good thing about it for us with PCs in the garage, is that we have made the big time when the fake tags start popping up.  Apparently the scammers feel it makes the cars worth more than an equivalent convertible.  This makes about 5 or so fake tags I have now for Z11's, to go along with the hundred or so Z28 tags.

[69pace]

I'm just saying that vehicle is out there somewhere, undocumented and widely unknown, stranger things have turned up on auction by folks totally unaware.

[Mark]

Was the original mockup really a 396?  Why would they have removed the 396 emblems?  The only cars without engine size emblems was the base L6 car.  The original had a steel front bumper.  I think they just grabbed a white convertible off the line, added the stripes interior and SS emblems to the fender (at least) and set it up on the dias to show what it was suppossed to look like.  If it was a 396 it would of already had the emblems on it.

[69Z28-RS]

What was the date of the first press conference showing the white/orange pace car?   Does no one know where that car is today?

PS.  A Nomad friend, whom I haven't seen in many years, (Bill Edney of S.C.) found the 50th anniversary GM car (a 'gold 55 BelAir hardtop) after around 20 yrs of 'obscurity'.   He found the car in a chicken coop, having been painted with a brush, wrecked and forgotten...  He bought the car for the rear end.   When he got it home and began pulling the rear, the shocks stretched out, and under the dirt/crude, he saw the clean golden portion of the shock as it came out of it's shroud.   that car had all the trim gold plated, was painted gold, and was a 'big deal' at GM He was able to verify by sn and parts that the car WAS GM's Golden Anniversary car!   HOW does such a car end up in a chicken coop?
Isn't it possible that the introductory '69 Pace Car vert could have been 'forgotten' over the years, especially if the TT didn't identify it as a Z11?

Gary

[Mark]

It's been refered to as a mockup, thats why I think it was just a display peice.  Note the black rocker treatment on the drivers side, but not the passenger side, no quarter panel gills on the passenger side.  These are not the type of issues you would expect on a completed car, that was going to be put infront of the media, if it was specifically built for that purpose.  The car may have been grabbed from a local dealership in the Indy area and fixed up to look like the proposed pace car configuration.

[69Z28-RS]

Anything is possible if the car isn't known today.    Does anyone know the date of that tony Hulman press conference introducing the car? 

[firstgenaddict]

I saw the black drivers side rocker... lol

[william]

Anything is possible if the car isn't known today.    Does anyone know the date of that tony Hulman press conference introducing the car? 

I have a copy of the press release for the intro, dated January 28, 1969.

[Mark]

Dealer notification letter from the engineering department went out February 4th,1969

[69Z28-RS]

If Indy actually had a white/orange car *labeled* as a Indy Pace Car in late January, then the following is true:
1) It would be a car built in January (or before)
2) It would not have the Z11 on the Trim Tag

and the following *could* be true:
1)  It *might* have been any Camaro convertible, but was probably white (with quick orange stripes and orange interior, and could have had 'any' available engine for the press release
2)  If that car is not *known* today, then it could be *ANY* '69 Convertible...  possibly painted in different colors, OR possibly having been 'dressed out' as a 'standard' Pace Car convertible (even with a fake TT)..?

Regardless of the above, I'd think if that car could be found, it would be valuable because it IS truly unique; even more unique than the actual cars that paced the Indy (if I remember correctly that there were two of the cars setup to be the actual pace car?), and more unique than the several hundred/thousand Pace Car Replicas which carry the Z11 on the TT...

Has anyone attempted to identify the "intro car* by VIN?  Possibly local Indianapolis dealers?, GM itself?, or even the Indy people might have record of that VIN somewhere..   

Gary

[MO]

Was the Orange Houndstooth interior available prior to the pace car release? 

[william]

Was the Orange Houndstooth interior available prior to the pace car release? 

Theoretically yes; in reality, no.

Both Orange and Yellow interiors were announced to dealers in a Communications Kit release February 9, 1969. Verbiage states they "...are now available for the Camaro coupe." Neither was optional for the convertible; each required "matching exterior colors Hugger Orange, Daytona Yellow or Black." Chevy then proceeded to build 3,675 Dover White convertibles with orange interiors.

The January 2, 1969 update to the Camaro Dealer Pricing lists yellow-but not orange. The earliest coupes with yellow houndstooth were built at the same time [Norwood] as the first Z11s-02D. But if our db is any indicator orange was simply not available in a coupe for several months. The earilest example is a fairly original car built late April at Norwood. The car is well-optioned and may have been a Zone order. Virtually all orange houndstooth coupes were built after mid-May.

[MO]

Thanks William. That said, it would seem unlikely that a car would be pulled off the line or lot with that combo as the pace car mock up. It sounds like it has to be more deliberate than that.

[69Z28-RS]

*Agrees with Mo*....

[william]

According to Smokey Yunick, who pretty much had an all-access pass to Chevrolet Engineering for many years, Styling wasn't an area you just popped into. Heavy security, very limited access. Locks changed daily. So whatever went on there is largely conjecture.

Few Chevy Styling builds still exist [3rd Gen Corvette, '67 Camaro convert, '69 Camaro cut-away] and they typically began as production cars, ordered and delivered to Chevy Styling. Paperwork for the ZL1 showcar exists; it was ordered by Styling just like any other customer. So Styling maybe ordered a Dover White '69 Camaro SS-RS convert with black custom interior and made the changes. Or maybe not-the lack of front fender engine ID suggests the car may have started as a pre-production pilot build. There wasn't any reason to remove the emblems; maybe they were never there. The few photos we have of the car indicate hasty preparation so it is unlikely they would have used it for shows.

What happened to it is anyone's guess. Although heavily modified by Engineering both '69 track pace cars [built from production Z11s] were sold and driven daily for some time. So was one of the '67s. Considering how many they did, very few Styling cars seem to have gotten into private hands. Most were probably scrapped at the end of the MY. And if it was sent to the employee "pool" and sold, no one would have known or cared what it was-I doubt they left a folder full of internal documents in the glove box. If it makes it to eBay everyone will write it off as a 'clone' Z11!

[69Z28-RS]

true....  Unless someone can do some 'due dilligence' and search out thru Indy and GM records..  the VIN of the car?
Gary

[william]

Assuming it had a VIN. Pre-production pilots didn't; some later acquired one in order to be sold. They didn't always have a body tag either. If it made it into the pool it would have first been registered in MI, not IN.

About 30 years ago a MI Camaro parts dealer bought a well-worn '69 Z/28. Intending to cut it up, he mentioned the low VIN to one of my long-time cronies D&R Stevie. He immediately bought the car intact: 0- intake, never had a body tag, no hidden VINs. No question about what it was. That's the story on why '69 Z/28 pilot build N500003 still exists.

Imagine what didn't get saved.

[z28z11]

Imagine what didn't get saved.

Now, add those to what has gone on to the Great Beyond Bone Yards in the Sky and really get depressed -

[69Z28-RS]

William,
I wouldn't think a mid year introduction of a 'package' of already existing options (the Z11) would require a pilot, even with the new interior option; at least not in the sense of a typical pilot which would normally be built NOT to be sold, but to be *tested*.   The Z11 was a 'sales/advertising' package to be sold....

[william]

You're mis-understanding. By Pilot I mean a pre-production car built June of '68 that was sitting around unused. Styling maybe used it for the Z11 paint/trim proposal and took it to the dinner. It wasn't a "Z11 Pilot" not really needed as you have noted. Whatever was at the dinner wasn't a production Z11.

[69Z28-RS]

Ahhhh..      I've got you now!..  and you're right.   GM *could* have done exactly that.   Do you know if anyone has attempted to research this issue to find out 'how/who' provided that car?   It would be an interesting story if we knew..  and potentially very valuable information to whomever found out the information.. 

[william]

A bud and I had a small Camaro parts business way back when and set up 1984 Chevy Tech Center show. They did a reception and the speaker was a guy from styling. He had been there since 1969 and was the only guy left from the good 'ol days. 1st Gens were phasing out by then and he had no involvement with them at all. He did remember the ZL1 showcar and it was his recollection someone there bought it as a roller to build a race car [gag]. By now there is likely no one left that worked in Styling in the '60s. Whatever they did was off the books and the records long gone.

Smokey Yunick was the recipient of at least two pilot cars: his 1st 1966 Chevelle race car and 1970 Camaro N500001. The '70 was received as a stripped body with no VIN but had a cert sticker showing it was built as a 6 cylinder. He never did anything with it and was sold "as-is" at his auction years ago. It is now "restored" and all sorts of ludicrous claims have been made about it. Bill Mitchell was given the '70 ZL1 show car and later had it updated to '78 specs. The CRG database has some very early production builds that were probably pilots as they have some unusual features. One '67 has a May '66 body tag. Years ago someone located build specs for about 10 '67s to be used as show cars. At that time they didn't have VINs but a few must have been sold later on. Some had extra wiring for show lighting and had '120V' noted on the body tag.

The best styling car is probably Corvette #1 the 1953 Motorama show car. They kept it around for some reason and eventually re-bodied it as a '55. Believe it or not it was sold like that with an 'EX' VIN and someone drove it for years. It still exists and whoever owns it will never have to worry about selling it.