BLOCK CAST DATE VS PAD STAMP DATE

[CROSSRAMJL8]

Is it possible to have block cast date say feb 12 1969 and a pade date of feb 13 1969. Is this the norm or is it to close???

[bertfam]

It's possible, but not the norm.

Ed

[CROSSRAMJL8]

thanks

[Mike S]

I would think the block would still be cooling one day later.
I wonder how long a block was in the mold?

Mike

[tmodel66]

Mike I would venture to say a block didn't stay in the mold 30 minutes. These things would be red hot when they hit the shaker. I never poured blocks but I put up many heads in the I/H foundry in Louisville Kentucky plant. Three and four cylinder heads set for about 20 minutes and the six sat for about 30 to 35 and there's a lot more iron in one of these heads than in a block because it's more solid.

[bertfam]

There are even known examples of blocks cast and assembled the same day!

Ed

[Mike S]

There are even known examples of blocks cast and assembled the same day!

Ed

Now that is what I call "hot off the press" !
Very interesting info.

Merry Christmas
Mike

[69Z28-RS]

I have an original '57 BelAir with the block cast date and assembly date the same!    my '69 Z28 302 block was cast on 26 august.. and assembled on 27 August...   

Gary

[bergy]

The best time possible at Tonawanda = 30 minutes on the pouring loop to shake out on lines 1 & 2 (block lines) + 4 hours in the cooling court + 20 minutes through blast, grind, chip & inspect.  The door to the Tonawanda Motor Plant was only about a 50 foot fork truck ride from the end of both block finishing lines.  Sometimes the blocks were pretty warm when they arrived at the motor plant.  At that point, the block could go right to the motor plant machining line.  So...it's clearly possible for a casting to be produced and assembled the same day.  We weren't "just in time" in those days though.  Most casting waited on pallets in inventory que.  If a block fell off of the conveyor in the cooling court it would sit up there until Christmas or Summer shut down.  So a casting date could be many months before build date.  The Flint motors would be pretty difficult to be cast & machined the same day due to the trucking required between Saginaw & Flint.

[Mike S]

 Now that you mention Tonawanda and with keeping with the thread topic I took a look at my 67 BB's and found the following
cast info though I find it interesting the spread in block dates to assembly date:

Cast Date     Asssembly    Prefix   Lag Time
 B  6  7         0214            MZ      8 days
 B 22 7         0308            MW    14 days

Merry Christmas,
Mike

[HOT3O2]

Great info Bergy. Love those inside stories from people that were actually there. That's what makes this site so great.

[JohnZ]

The Flint motors would be pretty difficult to be cast & machined the same day due to the trucking required between Saginaw & Flint.

That captive fleet of trucks ran 24/7 from the Saginaw Foundry to Flint V-8, delivering about 55,000 raw castings per day (blocks, heads, water pumps, flywheels, crankshafts, camshafts, intake manifolds, thermostat housings, etc.). The few blocks I've seen personally that were cast and machined/assembled the same day were cast during the first two hours on the day shift at Saginaw, and machined/assembled on the second shift at Flint V-8. Cast one day and assembled the next day was quite common in the mid-60's when everything was running all-out at Flint V-8; 300 engines per hour with Machining running 3 shifts and assembly (170 per hour on Line #1 and 130 per hour on Line #2) running two 9-hour shifts, producing 5500 engines per day (one every 12 seconds).

[bergy]

Yep - the plants were on "rock & roll" back then.  We were pouring 2500 tons per day at Tonawanda MCP.

[MO]

The best time possible at Tonawanda = 30 minutes on the pouring loop to shake out on lines 1 & 2 (block lines) + 4 hours in the cooling court + 20 minutes through blast, grind, chip & inspect.  The door to the Tonawanda Motor Plant was only about a 50 foot fork truck ride from the end of both block finishing lines.  Sometimes the blocks were pretty warm when they arrived at the motor plant.  At that point, the block could go right to the motor plant machining line.  So...it's clearly possible for a casting to be produced and assembled the same day.  We weren't "just in time" in those days though.  Most casting waited on pallets in inventory que.  If a block fell off of the conveyor in the cooling court it would sit up there until Christmas or Summer shut down.  So a casting date could be many months before build date.  The Flint motors would be pretty difficult to be cast & machined the same day due to the trucking required between Saginaw & Flint.

I didn't realize there was a Christmas shutdown. Was it more than just that day and Christmas Eve? What about the New Year's holiday?

[bergy]

The duration of Christmas shutdown varied with the casting demand.  The foundry was pretty maintenance intensive, so we tried to schedule a week shutdown in melt/mold to accommodate big projects.  The finishing/inspection area would generally work a limited crew through shutdown to catch up on casting repairs & rough casting backlog.  Also, personnel would be available to ship castings out of inventory to the motor plant.  Ugh - that's a real flashback - digging pallets of blocks out of snow/ice!  Under normal production though - the castings flowed pretty quickly to the motor plant (which is the topic of this thread).

[Mike S]

 Bergy,

    When you said casting repairs....what was a typical type of repair done? I assume that if a block wasn't repairable then it was melted and materials reused?

Thanks,
Mike

[MO]

The duration of Christmas shutdown varied with the casting demand.  The foundry was pretty maintenance intensive, so we tried to schedule a week shutdown in melt/mold to accommodate big projects.  The finishing/inspection area would generally work a limited crew through shutdown to catch up on casting repairs & rough casting backlog.  Also, personnel would be available to ship castings out of inventory to the motor plant.  Ugh - that's a real flashback - digging pallets of blocks out of snow/ice!  Under normal production though - the castings flowed pretty quickly to the motor plant (which is the topic of this thread).

Thanks...that's kind of what I thought. I couldn't see that they would completely shutdown plants.

[bergy]

Typical repairs were cosmetic welds on the valve cover rail for heads and on the intake rail on blocks - they often accumulated in finishing.  Sometimes hand stamping of castings that were missing a part number or date digit.  Also grinding of excess iron that would prevent castngs from going through auto grind equipment.  Scaling of cosmetic mold penitration - stuff like that.

[firstgenaddict]

Thanks...that's kind of what I thought. I couldn't see that they would completely shutdown plants.

With the advent of maintenance software and better designed/engineered process machinery maintained on a stricter basis, week long breaks for maintenance are pretty much a thing of the past. In the 40-50-60-70's my grandfather designed and built papermills, it was a given that the Week of July 4th and week of Christmas were for scheduled downtime (not one or two companies... every paper company), the reason? it had been found to be the most cost effective way to prevent UNSCHEDULED downtime, READ BREAKAGES... if you think taking a week to repair/ replace critical parts is extreme... wait til that part breaks in the middle of running a critical order for your best customer... not only the raw part expense, but whatever else is broken, including the customer's trust, then paying downtime at 1000's per hour for presses sitting idle, etc etc etc.

[MO]

Thanks James...that certainly makes sense.

[crobjones2]

I have always ben amazed at how efficient the casting plants were. There is a day seperation between the casting of the four components on my 350. Block on the 20th, water pump on the 20th, intake on the 21st and heads on the 22nd - all assembled on the 25th
I thought that was fast - but cast to built in a day - i'm impressed

[william]

Their casting operation may have been efficient but the rest of Chevrolet was a mess. De Lorean devoted much of his 1974 book to the train wreck he took over in 1969. He turned it around; many people believe he was one of the best auto execs ever.

The Ford Model T plant [1920s] was so efficient Toyota based their production system on it. They not only did their own casting they owned the mines, boats, all of it. Iron ore to running car in 72 hours I guess. Not bad for 1925.

I have spent my entire working career in manufacturing operations; Industrial Engineering and lately, Supply Chain. I cannot even imagine what an auto assembly plant is like today. Incredibly fast pace, no room for error. All "A" players in those shops.

[69Z28-RS]

Henry Ford even tried to buy part of TVA (Wilson Dam in NW Alabama) to generate his own electricity; he thought he had a deal, and bought up property for his workers homes, cut streets paved them, put in sidewalks, elec lines, etc...  then I think Roosevelt nixed the 'dam' deal, and Ford never moved south that area still has the overgrown streets/sidewalks, but no homes...  it's called 'Ford City'... 
PS.  Ford did build an Aluminum casting plant adjacent to Reynolds metals in that area later, but now it too is closed.

Gary

[bergy]

"Their casting operation may have been efficient but the rest of Chevrolet was a mess. De Lorean devoted much of his 1974 book to the train wreck he took over in 1969. He turned it around; many people believe he was one of the best auto execs ever."
   I actually got to meet John De Lorean at the St. Louis Assembly Plant.  Real visionary, extreemly smart & personable - even took time to show us around the new company plane that he flew in on.  He dressed completely in white that day - looked like the man from Glad!  His ego finally got the best of him - IMO.   

[william]

Although universally praised in several business books, DeLorean went "...right off the beam" to quote one of them when he was promoted to GM. Still took some big ones to even think you could start your own auto company.

[JohnZ]

Although universally praised in several business books, DeLorean went "...right off the beam" to quote one of them when he was promoted to GM. Still took some big ones to even think you could start your own auto company.

We built two special all-pink Firebird convertibles for Nancy Sinatra when DeLorean was dating her in 1967-68 when I was at Lordstown (she wrecked the first one the second week she had it); he had all the pink soft trim (I.P. pad, seat covers, door and quarter trim panels, carpets, soft top, etc.) made by some outfit in California. Then there's the Caprice limousine, but that's another story.... :-)

[firstgenaddict]

FORD Owned everything from the mines to the plants, to the glass manufacturing (LOF) to KINGSFORD Charcoal which made charcoal brikets from the scraps of wood from the car bodies, to manufacturing his own tires for his cars. He took one profit on the entire operation and could never be held hostage for commodity price increases...
He was way ahead of his time, experimenting with HEMP oils and resins to produce car panels from HEMP fiber and run them on Ethanol produced from hemp.
 

BTW The US government sent the tire plant to Russia during WWII...

ALSO Firestone (privately held) still does own everything from the rubber plantations(most of a tire is synthetic now) to the stores that sell the tires.

[william]

If you're in the area make it a point to tour The Rouge. They build the F-150 and you can observe a small part of the assembly operation. No more build sheets, broadacst sheets, whatever. When a unit is ordered they burn a chip with all the build info. As a unit moves down the line each station reads the chip and a screen displays the assigned components. I asked about some paper taped to the back of the cab and it was a paint inspection tag. That's it.

The area available for viewing is the start of the trim area. Interior panels, headliner, etc. Very little inventory at point of use. They must replenish hourly.

[z28z11]

I have to comment about Flint based on what I have seen in engine assembly over the last 30 years or so - I can count among my customers GM Spring Hill (formerly Saturn) for 1.9L, 2.2L, and 2.4L- 4's and transmissions, Nissan Decherd for V6 and ZH2 5.6L V8 production, Navistar/International diesel production V8 (5 heavy transfer lines), Hyundai Montgomery Theta 4 and V6 lines, and got to tour GM Opel L850 2.4L KS Germany and the plum of Stuttgart, Mercedes Engine V6-V8 production. I have helped tool a lot of processes from camshaft to crank machining to cylinder bore/block machining, plus small parts machining like water pumps/front covers and everything else, but in all this time I have never seen anything to beat seeing the film of the block gang installing pistons on the V8 line in Flint. Mercedes touted their robotic assembly in the Stuttgart plant, but the whole time I observed the place I kept thinking about the pace at which our venerable small blocks sailed out of the Flint plant (since 55?) and into what many of us own yet.

Kudos to all who ever worked in either facility. Your craftsmanship still powers us today -

IMO

Regards,
Steve

[jmcbeth]

Great info Bergy. Love those inside stories from people that were actually there. That's what makes this site so great.

I second hot302's comments. How fortunate we are to have the insight of folks that built these great cars. Thanks very much!

[GI JOE]

this is interesting history...   

How long did it take to ship the engine to the assembly plant?  Does anyone have any photos of the S&H?

Just so I am clear... the block stamp is the complete engines assembly date, correct? ...or is it the short block???

Why we are on this subject... how long did it take to ship the frame, rears axle and trans to the assembly plant? 

i would assume... (there is that word again, LOL) that all the components were sent palatalized and the pallet did not leave until it was a full pallet... assuming this then the pallet would have older and more recent engines being sent at one time .  Can anyone shine some light on this?

[JohnZ]

<<How long did it take to ship the engine to the assembly plant?  Does anyone have any photos of the S&H?

Just so I am clear... the block stamp is the complete engines assembly date, correct? ...or is it the short block???

Why we are on this subject... how long did it take to ship the frame, rears axle and trans to the assembly plant?  

i would assume... (there is that word again, LOL) that all the components were sent palatalized and the pallet did not leave until it was a full pallet... assuming this then the pallet would have older and more recent engines being sent at one time .  Can anyone shine some light on this? >>

Engines were shipped by rail, and it took a couple of days to get from Flint V-8 to Norwood by the time the rail cars were loaded, marshalled, made up into a train, travelled, split at the receiving marshalling yard, and moved inside the plant for unloading. Add another three days to get to Van Nuys. Engines were shipped three to a steel rack, stacked four racks high in the rail cars, and the rail cars returned the empty racks back to the engine plants - see photo below of racked Tonawanda big-blocks being unloaded.

The engine started down the assembly line at the engine plant as a bare block, upside-down, with the suffix code written on the side of the block in grease pencil so the assemblers knew what innards to install in it; after it was flipped right-side-up and the heads went on, the front pad was stamped with the plant identifier, assembly date, and suffix code. On big-blocks, Tonawanda stamped the code on the front pad BEFORE the heads went on, so the big plug on the front of the head didn't interfere with the gang-stamp holder, and there was nothing in the way of the assembly plant-applied VIN derivative stamp on the inboard end of the pad.

Frames and subframes were shipped stacked on open rail cars, and axles and automatic transmissions were shipped in enclosed rail cars in returnable steel racks similar to the engine racks; manual transmissions were strapped in stacked wooden pallets.

[MO]

John...sidebar; why are some vin stamps upside down? Heads on or off maybe making more room for the gang stamp?

[firstgenaddict]

John...sidebar; why are some vin stamps upside down? Heads on or off maybe making more room for the gang stamp?

I feel pretty certain in stating an absolute here... VIN stamps for Camaros were ALWAYS done with the heads on no matter whether they are SB or BB or assembled at Van Nuys or Norwood.

Some VIN derivatives are gang stamped some are not, some have single number stamp overs and some have the pad ground and individually stamped. Humans performed most processes so various anomalies exist. 

[GI JOE]

Thanks JohnZ,

That is one cool photo and BB to Boot... made my New years... \\GI Joe

[bergy]

Great pic JohnZ!  That RR track went right by the front of the foundry and continued on (switched) over to the Chevrolet Forge.  All 3 plants were on the same property.  The G&A plant was across town.  Switch yard was across the street from the 3 plants.  We lost more then one ZL1 over in that switch yard!

[Mike S]

.................... Humans performed most processes so various anomalies exist. 

I can certainly attest to this comment. My 67 4B LOS 396 that I have owned since 1980 has:
1- Double strike for the engine prefix (ghosting)
2- Misplaced year and plant code sequence in the VIN ( instead of 7L it is L7)
3- The last digit in the VIN stamp is a 1 and the VIN tag and hidden VIN is a 7

Mike

[JohnZ]

I feel pretty certain in stating an absolute here... VIN stamps for Camaros were ALWAYS done with the heads on no matter whether they are SB or BB or assembled at Van Nuys or Norwood.

That's what I said above - the heads-on/heads-off stamping referred to the ENGINE PLANT machine code, not the assembly plant-applied VIN derivative stamp.

[Mike S]

.................... Humans performed most processes so various anomalies exist.  

I can certainly attest to this comment. My 67 4B LOS 396 that I have owned since 1980 has:
1- Double strike for the engine prefix (ghosting)
2- Misplaced year and plant code sequence in the VIN ( instead of 7L it is L7)
3- The last digit in the VIN stamp is a 1 and the VIN tag and hidden VIN is a 7

Mike

 To show an interesting comparison and how human error James eluded to can be consistant at times, below are 2 pictures of 67 BB's from the LOS plant.
The one titled 'L7-vin' is a picture taken from my 67 4B car.
The one titled 'big block-from CGR' was taken from a CRG thread:
 (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8278.msg62099#msg62099 ) that is close to my S/N and also stamped with the same errors...upside down and the 7L reversed with L7 but interesting enough is the way the gang stamp was held on an angle being top heavy and the bottoms faint impression. This tells me it may be the same person who stamped both blocks.

Mike

[MO]

"I feel pretty certain in stating an absolute here... VIN stamps for Camaros were ALWAYS done with the heads on no matter whether they are SB or BB or assembled at Van Nuys or Norwood. "

Yeah...I didn't think that through all the way. Of course the heads are on because the vin's are stamped after being assigned to a car; not at the engine plant. Thanks for straightening me out.

[myty]

 My 02A 1969 Z28  (1st week Feb.)   Block cast A289                         (Jan. 28,1969)
                                                     Eng. Code V0130DZ                   (Jan. 30, 1969) V is Flint.  DZ is 69 302

                                                   Also, Differential BV0128G2          (Jan.28,1969)  BV is 4.10 Gears.
                                                              Cast A169                       (Jan.28,1969)  G is gear and axle plant.  2 is 2nd shift.   Gary.
          

[z28z11]

My 02A 1969 Z28  (2nd week Feb.)   
                                                   

Second week ?                                                   
                               
         

[myty]

Opps, can I fix that? I dont see an edit

[1968 Z28]

Opps, can I fix that? I dont see an edit

Can't remember exactly how long but......the edit function disappears after a certain length of time.  You can click on the "Report To Moderator" and send a message to Kurt to correct what you need.

[bertfam]

Opps, can I fix that? I dont see an edit

20 minutes to make changes then it's there forever!! However, I fixed it for you.

Ed

[z28z11]

Opps, can I fix that? I dont see an edit

myty - Don't get me wrong - I wasn't trying to be a S.A. - besides, I just learned you can edit what you post. I have made my share of errors and misspellings (thank goodness for Spell Check !), and thanks, Ed -

Regards,
Steve

[dutch]

Yep - the plants were on "rock & roll" back then.  We were pouring 2500 tons per day at Tonawanda MCP.

That certainly was a lot of metal moving - Can you relate just how the metallurgy changed and/or was tracked during much of the casting in a sense of the quality control of the molten batches when so much is being poured and so quickly?
I've heard where '010' and other notations cast behind the timing chain and bellhousing areas referred to the metallurgy content of pour batches in that more Nickel and maybe Tin were introduced into the composition when pouring certain batches of blocks.
Is this in fact true and if so why and how were any additional alloy amounts introduced and/or monitored?
Also, what if true is the reason to pour such blocks verses any others ie: was there a reason for such blending to be done or needed?
Having worked in and around smelters and assay labs in the nickel industry here in Canada for years, I find such things interesting and my own 302 has some of these casting notations on the block and I always wondered if it was really true that it designed  for  'performance blocks' needing maybe more strength over 'regular' ones..
Thanks - Randy

[dutch]

that should read 'designated' and not 'designed a'..

[bergy]

It would take a lot of typing to fully answer the metallurgical control question.  Suffice it to say that the primary alloying & adjusting elements were Carbon, Silicon, Manganese, and chrome.  "Base" iron was melted and the alloy composition was adjusted in the hot metal cranes as they were filled from the holding furnaces (in front of the cupolas).  Further adjustments were made at the individual molding lines.  There were only two basic types of iron.  Blocks & drums required a higher chrome for wear and/or tensile (class 30 iron).  Carbon, silicon, and chrome were further adjusted at the mold lines (as the metal was poured into the pouring ladles) for additional strength, and casting feeding requirements.  Gray iron producers were cupola melters back then, so Manganese was used to "tie up" excess sulfur in the iron.  Foundry metallurgy was essentially controlled/analyzed by eutectometers (carbon & silicon analysis via cooling curve) and chill samlpes (carbide tendency).  The full lab with spectrometer, Leco, wet lab, and mechanical testing was located at the forge (next door to the foundry) - connected via pneumatic transport tube.  Believe me - that's the "cliffs notes" version!

[JohnZ]

I've heard where '010' and other notations cast behind the timing chain and bellhousing areas referred to the metallurgy content of pour batches in that more Nickel and maybe Tin were introduced into the composition when pouring certain batches of blocks.

That's a common misconception - the "010/020" cast into that front bulkhead identifies the common core pattern used for two different blocks, not any metalllurgy.

[69Z28-RS]

John,  Was the metallurgy 'high nickel'?  or not?   I've read that in the car mags since the cars were new .....?

Gary

[bergy]

At Tonawanda we never alloyed production castings with nickel.

[MO]

At Tonawanda we never alloyed production castings with nickel.

How about non production? Maybe some went out to racers?

[69Z28-RS]

The Z blocks weren't cast at Tonawanda..    but instead all HP, and SHP small block engines were cast and built at Flint., I think....  waiting on JohnZ to respond re the 'high nickel' question on 302 blocks..

Gary

[bergy]

#2 mold line at Tonawanda cast small blocks - they could have (and were at times) shipped to Flint for solid lifter application.  All cylinder iron (both plants) was the same spec.   We did some really unusual alloying for some siamese bore race blocks.  Special alloying just wasn't done in production though - too hard to keep track of with 2,500 tons of iron being poured per day.

[69Z28-RS]

OK.   Thanks Bergy..   
but it sure makes one wonder where the initial information came from (re high nickel content) that has been reported in the auto mags *forever* re the Z28 blocks....?   How does such information get started and propagated for so long in supposedly 'knowledgable magazines'?? 

[maroman]

It just proves we drank the koolaid. I waited from month to month waiting for the next update on the HotRod Camaro SS in '67. I think Vic Edelbrock owns it now? 50 years later I found out it was ALL a lie. HotRod lied about all the stats, even the "396" was really a blueprined 427.

[69Z28-RS]

Yeah, I've been drinking 'Chevy koolaid' since the early '60's..    still enjoying *most* of it too..
Gary

[JohnZ]

John,  Was the metallurgy 'high nickel'?  or not?   I've read that in the car mags since the cars were new .....?

Gary

Nope. I don't know where that "010/020" high-nickel thing started, but it took on a life of its own, like many other misconceptions; I believed it too for a while, until I researched it and a friend of mine who has worked at the Saginaw Foundry (now called Saginaw Metal Casting Operations) for 37 years debunked the story and explained what the numbers mean. Those numbers just identify the core pattern for the front bulkhead.