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Author Topic: are cowl and trim tags painted  (Read 9936 times)
festival
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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2013, 03:29:31 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?

Somehow, in your never-ending quest for the truth, you apparently failed to check the visitor logbook from the front lobby desk where Chevrolet engineers signed in every day; you'll find my sign-ins in February and March, 1969, from the Chevrolet Pilot Line. Jim Seim, who contributed a TON of material for your book, will remember me, and my boss at the time from the Chevrolet Pilot Line (Jim Heise) was the Chief Inspector at Norwood.

No... As a matter of fact No one recalls you - to this very day in a Norwood employment context.

In an effort to determine who you were the retirees even investigated you.    This was all before the book came out.     I approached your work there as a likely visiting engineer for the facility modifications going on at that time as lots of engineers came in for modification engineering work in the spring of 1969.

What puzzled the real Norwood Retirees was the fact that anyone who toured the plant would have (or should have) understood that Norwood was a body drop and Fixed pedestal operation on the Chevrolet chassis side immediately and recalled that detail.   

The fact that your previous assembly document prior to the March 14 2013 edit portrayed Norwood as a TOWVEYOR operation Like Van Nuys to the reader (while drawing no fundamental distinction between the two processes) unfortunately lead some fanatical restorers to raise drivetrains up to the body with the front sheetmetal already installed following your instruction to the letter... 100% correct for an LA car but laughable for a Norwood car.

 I mean to tell you some Guys actually did this type of restoration and it was 100% wrong for a NOR build.

 In the beginning when interviewing the Norwood workers I attempted to use your process as a guide for questions and more often than not the answer I got was "no that is wrong"- who told you that??"  so I abandoned that as a formation for the interview and structured the interviews in free flow style.

So you see now 40 years on I am interviewing hundreds of guys who knew their jobs like the back of the hand because that is what they did all day-every day.  The memory is seared in the automatic portion of the immediate recall.

And now the book with the documents, details and recollections of the men who were there.  Perhaps you were there too.  I would have to say I believe you.  I have to tell you that based upon the reviews conducted on the March 24-2009 -March 14, 2013 technical article No one from the Management had any reason to believe you were.

But there is still more..The final bit of research was actually conducted by the Norwood retirees--on you.  The only Norwod guy that could recall you was a guy that worked with you at Central Office.  He was an ex Norwood guy who recalled you quite well even recalling your departure to Chrysler....  Your boss was DePetro...  Your Nickname was "Captn John".

Anyway perhaps with this the partisan bashing of the book that I authored that was written entirely from information gained from the Norwood retirees will cease here on this board.  It really needs to - life is far too short.


I am glad you and the CRG decided to edit your assembly process document on March 14 th of this year to remove glaring inadequacies such as "Norwood not having onsite rail load out"  That was kind of embarrassing  It was built in 1964.  I happen to have the blueprints for the plant... all of them - an entire truck load infact.     Who knows perhaps the sign in log may surface too one day that will show your name.  After rummaging through attics over the years nothing surprises me anymore


So you see John I did my research and quite well -- please credit your most recent edit to the assembly Process to the Men of Norwood-  They deserve it.


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festival
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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2013, 03:35:45 PM »

festival

Where are these meetings and is anyone invited to attend?  Depending on the venue and my schedule I would be interested to hear what these guys have to say.

Oh, and it would be nice if you answered questions people asked you.

Nobody knows everything - but most of us are willing to learn. 


Sure you are welcome to attend.. want to display your car?  That is the best part!
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KurtS
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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2013, 03:54:11 PM »

Phil,
So, that's the CRG-shattering news?? John's edits on the assembly report were done many months before your book even came out. They just didn't make it onto the site til recently - Bryon helped get them into HTML cause I'm swamped.

Interesting that you insist on answers but never answer questions asked of you.

For some unknown reason, you seem have a personal axe to grind with the CRG. A *serious* researcher would discuss their research to the benefit of the hobby.
Jerry MacNeish and JohnZ both do. Jon Mello started a new forum category to discuss T/A cars and invited all the original drivers and builders to participate and they do.

Instead of helping the hobby by including the Norwood employees in the discussion, you use them for your attacks - I doubt that is what they wish to happen with their knowledge. Why not include them in the discussion, ala the T/A forum? The T/A guys are as older or older and managed to join the forum.

So, what are you doing to benefit the hobby - other than just stirring the pot??
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Kurt S
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« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2013, 03:59:59 PM »

After reading all this I wouldn't buy that book if it was on the 99 cent rack. Your too arrogant for me.
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Rick
69 RS/Z28
No Stripes
festival
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« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2013, 04:02:21 PM »

Phil,
So, that's the CRG-shattering news?? John's edits on the assembly report were done many months before your book even came out. They just didn't make it onto the site til recently - Bryon helped get them into HTML cause I'm swamped.

Interesting that you insist on answers but never answer questions asked of you.

For some unknown reason, you seem have a personal axe to grind with the CRG. A *serious* researcher would discuss their research to the benefit of the hobby.
Jerry MacNeish and JohnZ both do. Jon Mello started a new forum category to discuss T/A cars and invited all the original drivers and builders to participate and they do.

Instead of helping the hobby by including the Norwood employees in the discussion, you use them for your attacks - I doubt that is what they wish to happen with their knowledge. Why not include them in the discussion, ala the T/A forum? The T/A guys are as older or older and managed to join the forum.

So, what are you doing to benefit the hobby - other than just stirring the pot??

Kurt,

I have saved all of the threads where you and others from the CRG have stalked me on the internet over the years..

 Where I would find information that came directly from an original source at Norwood and dared post it you were there with the cold water to throw on it all while using the flawed assembly process to make your case for what was "correct".

I am involving the T/A guys.. but I have to say exchanges where you approach people just like you did here will never entice any of the Norwood retirees to participate EVER.

I am stirring the pot by telling the truth.    If the book brings no benefit to the hobby you and I simply operate on a different plain altogether.

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festival
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« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2013, 04:04:38 PM »

After reading all this I wouldn't buy that book if it was on the 99 cent rack. Your too arrogant for me.

The plant was a big shouldered place.  No place for thin skinned folks.  it is what it is.
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festival78
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2013, 04:05:02 PM »

I feel bad that things have come to this embarrassing impasse.. I bore witness to Phil researching this plant over the last bunch of years and watched as Kurt was all but begged to jump on board and right the wrongs... For many years I have been at odds with these guys about the huge lack of inclusion of " The Human Element " that belongs in this hobby.. I was very very irritated when friends of mine restored cars according to Johns assembly process as if it were gospel...only to find out they suffered through a subframe up built for nothing. I have personally been belittled by ALL CRG guys ( except for John whose been very nice to me )on many occasions..
I can absolutely appreciate and understand when a guy like John appears that someone should embrace and capture the knowledge... But to always take the hard line and the" I know and you don't" attitude is going to be this groups undoing... and very soon.
I am completely mystified why every single core member of this website has stopped short of embracing these terrific guys from Norwood..I'm shocked that these guys have not taken up residency for each Gathering and collected their own info from the retirees. For two years now I have gone and had these fine fellows nearly all to myself.. Brian Henderson and I ask the craziest questions and get either and honest " I don't know " and a fantastically simple answer.. All of you guys are cheating yourselves out of finding that pot of gold you've always longed for in this hobby..
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festival
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2013, 04:07:57 PM »

Kurt,,

For the sake of complete transparency:   http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2510094833/m/6851072846/p/1

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festival78
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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2013, 04:19:09 PM »

Oh and by the way.. I am the guy that asked the painted trim tag question... I stood there before dozens of these guys and the agreed to answer was " So we could see the tag ".. and yes they were the Chevy side guys.. You can get in your car and drive to Norwood next year and ask the same question again if you'd like.. And if you start with the I'm too poor or busy bologney then PM me and I'll do what I can to get you there myself

Know that Phil Borris does not own these guys.. He does not have a contract or lock on their attention.. He's quite simply the first guy to man up and use his own money, time and lifesblood to do it.. These retirees will sit with any single one of you and be your friend,,, they will thank you for coming and thank you for caring about what they did for a living... they will

Do it before you embarrass yourselves any further

ARG is exactly where they pushed the engineless gliders.. Its where they sent an amazing amount of cars for repair... The reason for AGR was to FIX an imperfect system... imperfect.. get it? just like a human being.. imperfect
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tar6569
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2013, 05:10:36 PM »

I was very very irritated when friends of mine restored cars according to Johns assembly process as if it were gospel...only to find out they suffered through a subframe up built for nothing.

Just curious as I'm mostly an Impala guy, what difference is that process going to make with the finished product?  You wouldn't be able to tell how a Impala was restored by looking at it.  Is it different with Camaros?  Will if affect the value of the car?

If I belittled you in the past, please let me know where an when.
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Warren

1964-1970 fullsize Chevrolet research
Jon Mello
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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2013, 06:03:10 PM »

If I belittled you in the past, please let me know where an when.

That goes double for me. I have heard I'm banned over there but have no idea why.
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Jon Mello
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KurtS
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2013, 06:30:54 PM »

Phil and Tom,
I've been asked in multiple PM's and emails why I don't ban both of you.
Well, because I don't like to ban anyone. But slander and personal attacks are *NOT* allowed here. Any more posts in that tone and you're gone.

Discuss the topic, not the person.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2013, 07:07:22 PM »

.
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GaryC

'UNRESTORED' 1969 Cortez Silver X33D80 Z28
festival
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2013, 07:16:46 PM »

Phil and Tom,
I've been asked in multiple PM's and emails why I don't ban both of you.
Well, because I don't like to ban anyone. But slander and personal attacks are *NOT* allowed here. Any more posts in that tone and you're gone.

Discuss the topic, not the person.

Thanks Kurt,

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to post here at the CRG.
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Mark
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« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2013, 07:18:37 PM »

Oh and by the way.. I am the guy that asked the painted trim tag question... I stood there before dozens of these guys and the agreed to answer was " So we could see the tag ".. and yes they were the Chevy side guys.

This whole thing seem to go arwy when a simple question was asked, by me I think.  What were the Chevy guys looking at on the tag, and why did they need it?  Now we've gone 3 or so pages to long, everyones pissed off, and we still have no answer, does no one any good in the long haul.

Unfortunately I can't post on the Pacecar site.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
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