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Author Topic: are cowl and trim tags painted  (Read 7549 times)
z28rich
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« on: October 01, 2012, 08:40:44 AM »

since my firewall is striped from paint. are the tags painted and if so,when do they get painted
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Oaklyss
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 08:45:25 AM »

My original paint, Van Nuys built, 69:

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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 08:46:31 AM »

The tag is painted right along with the firewall all at the same time.
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z28rich
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 03:17:26 PM »

thank you  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 10:06:33 AM »


  I know this is an old topic/posts. I wanted to post so as to share,that others not make same mistake I did..(in 1979). I stripped a ugly white trim tag on my then just purchased 01A 1967 Norwood built Camaro . It was yellowed and dirty so thought I was doing good . Just found in festivals-norwood book , photo and story of how and why it was like that . Dang shame on me!

  I could post a pic , but it just looks like every other one now. Wish I knew then what I know now .....phil
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 11:37:01 AM »

Not alll of the 67 Norwood tags were hit with that quick blast of white spray paint, some were, some weren't.  The paint was applied before, or just at the time the bodies got to the GM side, as none of the other components on the firewall (wiring harnesses, wiper motor, wire gutter, brake components, etc.)have any overspray on them.  The story of the guy with the bad eyesight is more than likely an urban myth (unless theres another story) repeated over time, and now true, just like the 67 and 69 Pacecars were shipped with the decals in the trunk.
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 02:25:40 PM »


 Eyesight ..lol .. never heard that one before. I`ll trust Mr. Borris on this one .
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 02:49:33 PM »

Then he has a different theory (not just him) than the one from a few years ago.  We're all ears.
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 02:50:12 PM »

The real question is why did they stop the practice in 68 and 69?
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 03:47:49 PM »


 Timing  of my 67 01A Norwood car . It was production related. And to see it , however because the workers resisted the new computer generated  "body broadcast" print out so the trim tag containing the option content was sprayed white to make it easier to see major option content at a glance. The 2 sheets in the photo , hang in the windshied (one body and one chassis.) That to me would be understandable . I worked in some of those factories in the 70`s and they pushed real hard on us grunts .Not having a special model such as a pace car ,Z/28,SS,RS,Lotta HP, or the like (my no options car.)  Seems silly to have wiped off something that otherwise dated it (to someone who was there) and a darn shame is all. I was just trying to share @ how trim tag paint story I had to offer to this thread . Echos of Norwood page 101, picture and caption.Photo is from General Motors Media Archives. Geessss throw a dog a bone for crying out loud!
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 04:25:39 PM »

Thats a version of the guy with the poor eyesight story.  The only problem with that theory is that it was done post paint line, since that is when the body black on the firewall was painted onto the tub and the white e=overspray would have to of occurred after that, either in the trim shop, or even later as it went over to GM.  At the point the cowl was painted black all of the options Fisher had to add to the car were complete except the color and style of the interior.  There would have been no reason to even glance at the cowl tag at that point, since the interior would already be on the line in the sequence that the bodies were coming down the line.  And not every car has it.  I'm not a beleiver.
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 04:49:54 PM »

 Hi Mark,

  It seems likely to me to have been more of a visual aid to the assemblers during the post-Fisher body build phase for modifications to the Chevy installed front nose and other exterior drilling (SS,RS emblems, etc) that the white spray was done. By that time Fisher was done preparing the body for options they were responsible for installing or prepping for so any larger font printed documentation such as the UOIT that accompanied the structure build out was no longer needed and removed (well most removed) before going to Chevy. The white paint may have likely been an ad-hoc fix and applied at Chevy for complaints or possible missed preparations on the fast paced assembly line by the Chevy workers. Heck, I need glasses just to read the tiny fonts on my trim tag due to the black paint just standing still!  Grin

Just an observation.
Mike
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 05:24:56 PM »

  Embarrassed  well the point is it was done.can still be found like that.the story can live on .which version who cares? i have never seen one that wasn`t painted .page 101 picture is at body drop....
"since my firewall is striped from paint. are the tags painted and if so,when do they get painted "
that was the point of the thread .(when do) in a restoration topic is not when did!!whenever and whatever color you want mr. owner /restorer.pay no attention to talking heads going off topic,unless you need the entertainment.
      
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2013, 06:43:17 PM »

The only thing GM needed to see on the cowl tag (or the BBC hanging on the car is the body number, since that was the tie to the original dealer order that defined what options went on the car untilt GM assigned a VIN to it.  After that, there was no info anyone on the GM side needed. 

I've seen them as early as 11C in 66 all the way thru 06C in 67.  A lot in the 03C thru the end of the year, but intermittent thru out the rest of the time.  Not every original one has it, but its hard to tell if others that have had spraybomb engine compartment restorations have it.  They definitely had paint applied here and there and figuring out why is what is called RESEARCH.   There doesn't seem to be any obvious option associated with it, like every custom interior car got it, or every vinyl top car got on, or SS's and Z28's got it.   They also started doing it for a reason, and quit doing it for some reason, as there are none in 68 or 69 with white paint on them.  What changed in the process, again research, not anecdotal story telling.  I don't know why they did it, but I do know it did Fisher no good, by the time it was painted.
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 06:50:42 PM »

Hi Mark,

  The one reason I can think of for not seeing it after '67 is the following year trim tags weren't stamped with the large amount of option information as in '67.

Mike
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 11:12:43 AM »

Thats a version of the guy with the poor eyesight story.  The only problem with that theory is that it was done post paint line, since that is when the body black on the firewall was painted onto the tub and the white e=overspray would have to of occurred after that, either in the trim shop, or even later as it went over to GM.  At the point the cowl was painted black all of the options Fisher had to add to the car were complete except the color and style of the interior.  There would have been no reason to even glance at the cowl tag at that point, since the interior would already be on the line in the sequence that the bodies were coming down the line.  And not every car has it.  I'm not a beleiver.
The only thing GM needed to see on the cowl tag (or the BBC hanging on the car is the body number, since that was the tie to the original dealer order that defined what options went on the car untilt GM assigned a VIN to it.  After that, there was no info anyone on the GM side needed. 

I've seen them as early as 11C in 66 all the way thru 06C in 67.  A lot in the 03C thru the end of the year, but intermittent thru out the rest of the time.  Not every original one has it, but its hard to tell if others that have had spraybomb engine compartment restorations have it.  They definitely had paint applied here and there and figuring out why is what is called RESEARCH.   There doesn't seem to be any obvious option associated with it, like every custom interior car got it, or every vinyl top car got on, or SS's and Z28's got it.   They also started doing it for a reason, and quit doing it for some reason, as there are none in 68 or 69 with white paint on them.  What changed in the process, again research, not anecdotal story telling.  I don't know why they did it, but I do know it did Fisher no good, by the time it was painted.


Mark,

I have alerted some of the Norwood retirees to this thread and we have talked-so....How about you be my personal guest at the Friday Night Panel discussion where assembled before you will be Engineers, Managers, Production Superintendents, and Line personnel.     

Perfect opportunity for you to tell them exactly how things operated at the plant - that they operated.

Seriously--I will give you a seat right up front.  This will be an expanded event and I am sure you will enjoy the experience.  Grin  So let's correct the record on how production ran and the line operated how about it Mark care to take us up on it?
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2013, 11:30:40 AM »

You paying my air fare?

Answer me this one question?

What parts did Fisher add to the car that are specified on the cowl tag, post Firewall blackout?

I do not question that some tags (50-60% ?) have the white paint applied, I'm just wondering what good it did Fisher at the point it had to be sprayed on the tag.  And if we assume that they quit doing it in 68 and 69 because the amount of info on the tag no longer documents anything other than interior and exterior colors and if the car had style trim or not then that means it was not used by the GM side of the plant for anything, since they only needed the body number.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 11:46:14 AM »

You paying my air fare?

Answer me this one question?

What parts did Fisher add to the car that are specified on the cowl tag, post Firewall blackout?

I do not question that some tags (50-60% ?) have the white paint applied, I'm just wondering what good it did Fisher at the point it had to be sprayed on the tag.  And if we assume that they quit doing it in 68 and 69 because the amount of info on the tag no longer documents anything other than interior and exterior colors and if the car had style trim or not then that means it was not used by the GM side of the plant for anything, since they only needed the body number.


No sadly I cannot pay your expenses.. You rambled on for the better part of two paragraphs and capped it off by saying that you" did not know why it was done"..

So you are being offered a fair chance to find out. 

The entire story of the tag painting episode is memorialized in the book including a photo of a car with a painted tag... you could buy the book.

Invite and the chair up front still stands.  The retirees are intrigued as to what you can educate them on.
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 11:57:44 AM »

See question one above, you've stated it was for fisher benifit so they could read the info on the tags easier what were they looking for after body black out occurred?

Obviously is someone sprayed a tag white somewhere between body black out in the Fisher paint shop, and front doghouse drop on the GM side, the tag would still be white, GM didn't tought the paint on the tub unless they took a ding out of it after it arrived, so that picture indicates it was done, which we both agree happened.

The retirees are more than welcome to post their views here or anywhere else they feel comfortable doing so.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 12:12:58 PM »

See question one above, you've stated it was for fisher benifit so they could read the info on the tags easier what were they looking for after body black out occurred?

Obviously is someone sprayed a tag white somewhere between body black out in the Fisher paint shop, and front doghouse drop on the GM side, the tag would still be white, GM didn't tought the paint on the tub unless they took a ding out of it after it arrived, so that picture indicates it was done, which we both agree happened.

The retirees are more than welcome to post their views here or anywhere else they feel comfortable doing so.

Mark,

I have made no statements within this thread whatsoever as to why the tags were painted. 

The Norwood retirees are more than happy to meet you face to face however. Grin 

The offer stands. Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 12:59:23 PM »

As expected, you have no wish to discuss things logically or broach any topic that does not fit your model, or share any of your thoughts with the rest of the hobby.

A) we know that Norwood painted SOME cowl tags white. - No argument (Seems like it started around 11C - maybe earlier but thats the earliest tag I can find with white paint on it)
B) we know it took place after body blackout - otherwise it would be under the blackout.
C) After body blackout the only station left on Fishers side was the trim shop (Yes/no?)

So the tag was sprayed so the guys in the trim shop could tell if a car needed style trim, or interior molding, tinted glass, standard or deluxe seatbelts, a manual or power top, or some large bumper gaurds?  I'm going to assume they could tell it was an RS, or needed a remote control mirror?  Because everything else on the tags was already done to the car, by the time it hit the front of the paint booth.

If it wasn't for the Fisher guys, and GM did it, when did it happen and who needed the info.  Does the logic not flow, am I missing some huge peice of the puzzle?
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 02:23:11 PM »

As expected, you have no wish to discuss things logically or broach any topic that does not fit your model, or share any of your thoughts with the rest of the hobby.

A) we know that Norwood painted SOME cowl tags white. - No argument (Seems like it started around 11C - maybe earlier but thats the earliest tag I can find with white paint on it)
B) we know it took place after body blackout - otherwise it would be under the blackout.
C) After body blackout the only station left on Fishers side was the trim shop (Yes/no?)

So the tag was sprayed so the guys in the trim shop could tell if a car needed style trim, or interior molding, tinted glass, standard or deluxe seatbelts, a manual or power top, or some large bumper gaurds?  I'm going to assume they could tell it was an RS, or needed a remote control mirror?  Because everything else on the tags was already done to the car, by the time it hit the front of the paint booth.

If it wasn't for the Fisher guys, and GM did it, when did it happen and who needed the info.  Does the logic not flow, am I missing some huge peice of the puzzle?

Mark I do not need to discuss it here.  This topic is discussed in detail in the book. 

However if I wanted to expand on the topic in this thread you provide little incentive to do so, as with your accusatory attitude you will likely continue to take any answer provided in endless circles.

For the others monitoring this thread - I will say for the record that the process concerning the tag painting was a very minor human element related aspect of production (for 1967 only) and is pretty thoroughly examined in the book.

www.norwoodassemblyplant.com

Phil Borris

 
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 02:43:04 PM »

Maybe you could provide the appropriate excerpt from the book here?  for all of us to see and discuss and understand?   i'm sure there was a reason for everything they did, and it likely had something to do with cost or efficiency...  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2013, 02:53:22 PM »

Yes. I would have to agree as well. Put this baby to bed!!
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2013, 02:58:35 PM »

Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...

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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2013, 05:24:44 PM »

That's disappointing. You won't discuss the topic or answer any direct questions. 'See my book' is not really a discussion point. Sad
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2013, 05:29:24 PM »

I guess we have to buy the book to get the answer. That's one way to sell them.
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2013, 05:41:02 PM »

It was production related. And to see it , however because the workers resisted the new computer generated  "body broadcast" print out so the trim tag containing the option content was sprayed white to make it easier to see major option content at a glance.
The trim tag had very different info than the broadcast sheet.
Fisher had the UOIT sheet which acted as an enlarged trim tag. I've definitely seen original 67 NOR tags without white paint. Other plants didn't paint the tag, btw.

The broadcast sheets had been around for a while, they were not new. And they were for Chevrolet, not Fisher so they aren't relevant here.
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2013, 05:46:03 PM »

Works for me.  I have over $10K in receipts for travel and expences for the research alone.

To those who support the book - my sincerest gratitude is extended.

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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2013, 06:00:24 PM »

 My original 67 NOR 5B tag was not painted but this topic is interesting never the less.  I would like to see this discussed by those who state they know the answers, and to show supporting documentation where it exists is always a plus. This is a free group to join so their (Engineers, Managers, Production Superintendents, and Line personnel) registration would be most welcomed and their contribution invaluable. Case in point, John Z., who has been directly involved in portions of the manufacturing never hesitates to share is knowledge within this research group. People like that are an invaluable resource to learn from and build a solid knowledge base for all to share with others.
 I haven't been in this group long but I have seen some topics that stated one thing and after several people put their information forward  including photos, documentations, etc... that the beliefs at that time changed. One thing that comes to mind was the use of a brass oil line bulk head connector on 67 Camaros. It went from being believed it was an after market item to now an accepted fact that it did exist, but only from getting input from many people. So, the CRG beliefs can change providing there is enough supporting evidence. This white tag topic is no different. If there are those who really know and can answer the questions people like Mark put forth, then I hope they register and come forward.

Mike
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2013, 06:01:49 PM »

Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...



Phil, I've been reading your book and have enjoyed it (currently near the end of the 69 model run P135) so congratulations on that accomplishment, but if I may, it might be better to just give what you believe the correct answer is and based on what. Nothing wrong with referencing the book but making it seem like a commercial will turn members off. I'm confident that was not your intention and congratulations again on the book.
By the way, would I love to have one of those RS SS 396 Convertibles loaded on the trailer (p115) like the one up top with chambered exhaust. What else that caught my eye was the wheel combination as it seems many or all have trim rings and dog dish caps.
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2013, 06:08:43 PM »

That's disappointing. You won't discuss the topic or answer any direct questions. 'See my book' is not really a discussion point. Sad

The Book is a book.  Not an internet venture.

A word of caution.  The book was vetted for accuracy by a team of plant personnel.   For example when you speak about technical information pertaining to Fisher Body Norwood Know this- there are two men who ran the build data for Fisher at the data management level and for production-- and they are a phone call away... also understand that because one type of documentation was relied upon in one GM plant when you focus on how one specific individual plant operated you will find variations in technology and implementation and integration.  

An example is robot usage at Norwood...despite the age of Norwood it was the first to get the technology at the assembly plant level.
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »

Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...



Phil, I've been reading your book and have enjoyed it (currently near the end of the 69 model run P135) so congratulations on that accomplishment, but if I may, it might be better to just give what you believe the correct answer is and based on what. Nothing wrong with referencing the book but making it seem like a commercial will turn members off. I'm confident that was not your intention and congratulations again on the book.
By the way, would I love to have one of those RS SS 396 Convertibles loaded on the trailer (p115) like the one up top with chambered exhaust. What else that caught my eye was the wheel combination as it seems many or all have trim rings and dog dish caps.

Thanks for the complements!  In order to explore the minutiae of detail that interests the forum here-this would consume enormous amounts of time.

 So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case.
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2013, 07:39:16 PM »

"So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case."

 I disagree with the underpinning comment but why not share what the book explains. Maybe that would answer the question the Group asks and also entice members to get more curious and buy the book to learn more.

Mike
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2013, 08:25:41 PM »

"So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case."

 I disagree with the underpinning comment but why not share what the book explains. Maybe that would answer the question the Group asks and also entice members to get more curious and buy the book to learn more.

Mike,

Mike

I hear you and I wish I could.  That would be a precedent setting mistake that I would grow to regret. 

 Believe me when I tell you that the white paint on a trim tag is "trivial" when compared to the other revelations that the research confirmed. 

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 

That is why I refer to the book and tell people to read it.  Upon request I will authorize a brief quotation or a summary statement from a party who has the book and I have no problem as long as the quotation is in proper context and and accurate.
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2013, 11:22:34 PM »


Most of us with Camaros have well over $10K in just parts, not even counting our travel to shows and chasing parts and not counting the time invested in our own research.     
To those on the CRG who support us with INFORMATION on our cars - my sincerest gratitude is extended.

That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2013, 11:30:09 PM »



That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
YUP......X2
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2013, 01:11:22 AM »

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 
And exactly how did they remove these vehicles from the assembly line and put them where? Have you been in a plant when it's running???
So, you wrote a book, but you can't actually provide any quotes from it?

That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
YUP......X2
You guys understand. S2D2  = same st*ff, different day.
Stirs it up, but can't back it up.
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2013, 06:19:51 AM »

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 
And exactly how did they remove these vehicles from the assembly line and put them where? Have you been in a plant when it's running???
So, you wrote a book, but you can't actually provide any quotes from it?

That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
YUP......X2
You guys understand. S2D2  = same st*ff, different day.
Stirs it up, but can't back it up.

You are right Kurt,   I and the Norwood guys are idiots for trying to reach out to you and the CRG.

What in the world were we thinking?   Roll Eyes

X3...

   
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2013, 06:37:14 AM »

You must have short arms if your reaching out.  Nothing to see or learn here, lets move along folks.
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2013, 07:06:39 AM »

You must have short arms if your reaching out.  Nothing to see or learn here, lets move along folks.

Offer still stands Mark... You would have a blast I am sure.
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2013, 07:16:40 AM »

I'm sure I would, but I've got way too much non Camaro related stuff going on right now, so there's no time for traveling.
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2013, 09:25:03 AM »

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level.

No, it was NOT "common" to build 1969 Camaros without engines; in an assembly plant, a car with no engine was called a "glider", and for the supervisor responsible for creating the situation, it was a career-limiting move. It's a "story" that some plant folks love to "enhance" when talking to people who have never actually been in a plant or run production, as it sounds dramatic. It was.
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2013, 11:42:23 AM »

John,

Thanks for going on the record on that issue. Grin
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2013, 12:14:21 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2013, 12:17:36 PM »

So your saying there was a way to order a 69 Camaro without an engine, or was this just the guys at the plant getting together to make a car minus the engine?
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2013, 05:08:23 PM »

I got curious because I remembered seeing several white tags in my 68 database, so I went back and checked, and sure enough, I have several early 68 Norwood tags that are painited white. A few are even black, but with white underneath! Here are two examples. The top on is white and the bottom one is white under the black.

Ed

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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2013, 05:22:07 PM »

Oh John,
Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
I have been an interested spectator so far on this thread, but cannot believe the above post. Nobody has done more to share knowledge and insight with this community than JohnZ.
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« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2013, 05:37:36 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
I think that you will find that John Hinkley (aka John Z) didn't work on the assembly line at Norwood.....he was the plant manager at one time.
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« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2013, 06:46:14 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
I'm at a total loss at what your trying to accomplish but you just blew it big time!  John Hinkley (aka JohnZ) is a highly respected person who has consistently assisted with information to so many car enthusiast for many years through many forums and NCRS, and was enshrined in the the Corvette hall of fame a few years ago. You had a thing going back and forth with primarily one member but unfortunately your know it all, read my book, phone call away, etc. has pretty much alienated the rest of us with your negative and improper come backs.
 
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« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2013, 07:59:47 PM »

It was production related. And to see it , however because the workers resisted the new computer generated  "body broadcast" print out so the trim tag containing the option content was sprayed white to make it easier to see major option content at a glance.

Norwood had used the broadcast sheets in previous years, including a very similar form in 66 with the Impalas.  I'm curious as to why the workers all of a sudden resisted the broadcast sheets in 67?  Also, the white on the cowl tag has been seen on 65/66 Chevy fullsize cars from Norwood so they didn't start that practice in 67.  Is the B body/Chevy II production at Norwood for 65/66 covered at all in the book?
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« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2013, 08:28:29 PM »

 Guys.. Why jump to conclusions ?? It is really a simple question that John should be able to answer. Grin
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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2013, 08:38:20 PM »

No, we're asking YOU. YOU wrote the book. YOU stared the rant. Why do you insist of side stepping the questions?? And don't say "buy the book" because so far what I've seen, your book has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

If you can't defend your positions (and apparently you can't), then please don't keep spitting out the same old crud. You've lost most of your credibility already. You should probably keep quiet so as not to loose what little you have left.

Ed
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2013, 08:52:43 PM »

Ed

Wow I must be on a nerve... Sorry about that guys.  Now why cannot John just answer the question?  What is the problem here gentlemen?

I am not worried about credibility at this point for very well supported reasons. Grin
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2013, 11:53:54 PM »

I received a great piece of advice early in my business career...
Never argue with a fool he will drag you down to his level. 
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2013, 07:50:14 AM »

I got curious because I remembered seeing several white tags in my 68 database, so I went back and checked, and sure enough, I have several early 68 Norwood tags that are painited white. A few are even black, but with white underneath! Here are two examples. The top on is white and the bottom one is white under the black.

Ed



Hi Ed,
  Interesting find for '68! As for the white under black tag, the one reason that comes to mind is maybe either the dealer or new owner blacked it out to eliminate the bright 'eye sore' from a free hand tag spray job. Is there black under the white if you clear paint off further? I suspect black will be there.

Mike
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2013, 09:35:13 AM »

And Ed is the second one 09C?
I've seen a few very early 68 tags with white paint, but the white paint had generally deterioriated.
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2013, 12:18:02 PM »

Phil, the second tag is a 09C as you suspected.

Mike, I have several that have white paint under the black, so I don't think it was a "one off". Your theory could be good, but there's probably no way we'll ever know for sure.

Here's another one. Originally an Ash Gold car. Note the white under the flaking black on the surrounding firewall.

Ed

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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2013, 01:41:17 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?

Somehow, in your never-ending quest for the truth, you apparently failed to check the visitor logbook from the front lobby desk where Chevrolet engineers signed in every day; you'll find my sign-ins in February and March, 1969, from the Chevrolet Pilot Line. Jim Seim, who contributed a TON of material for your book, will remember me, and my boss at the time from the Chevrolet Pilot Line (Jim Heise) was the Chief Inspector at Norwood.
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2013, 02:30:42 PM »

festival

Where are these meetings and is anyone invited to attend?  Depending on the venue and my schedule I would be interested to hear what these guys have to say.

Oh, and it would be nice if you answered questions people asked you.

Nobody knows everything - but most of us are willing to learn. 
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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2013, 03:29:31 PM »

Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?

Somehow, in your never-ending quest for the truth, you apparently failed to check the visitor logbook from the front lobby desk where Chevrolet engineers signed in every day; you'll find my sign-ins in February and March, 1969, from the Chevrolet Pilot Line. Jim Seim, who contributed a TON of material for your book, will remember me, and my boss at the time from the Chevrolet Pilot Line (Jim Heise) was the Chief Inspector at Norwood.

No... As a matter of fact No one recalls you - to this very day in a Norwood employment context.

In an effort to determine who you were the retirees even investigated you.    This was all before the book came out.     I approached your work there as a likely visiting engineer for the facility modifications going on at that time as lots of engineers came in for modification engineering work in the spring of 1969.

What puzzled the real Norwood Retirees was the fact that anyone who toured the plant would have (or should have) understood that Norwood was a body drop and Fixed pedestal operation on the Chevrolet chassis side immediately and recalled that detail.   

The fact that your previous assembly document prior to the March 14 2013 edit portrayed Norwood as a TOWVEYOR operation Like Van Nuys to the reader (while drawing no fundamental distinction between the two processes) unfortunately lead some fanatical restorers to raise drivetrains up to the body with the front sheetmetal already installed following your instruction to the letter... 100% correct for an LA car but laughable for a Norwood car.

 I mean to tell you some Guys actually did this type of restoration and it was 100% wrong for a NOR build.

 In the beginning when interviewing the Norwood workers I attempted to use your process as a guide for questions and more often than not the answer I got was "no that is wrong"- who told you that??"  so I abandoned that as a formation for the interview and structured the interviews in free flow style.

So you see now 40 years on I am interviewing hundreds of guys who knew their jobs like the back of the hand because that is what they did all day-every day.  The memory is seared in the automatic portion of the immediate recall.

And now the book with the documents, details and recollections of the men who were there.  Perhaps you were there too.  I would have to say I believe you.  I have to tell you that based upon the reviews conducted on the March 24-2009 -March 14, 2013 technical article No one from the Management had any reason to believe you were.

But there is still more..The final bit of research was actually conducted by the Norwood retirees--on you.  The only Norwod guy that could recall you was a guy that worked with you at Central Office.  He was an ex Norwood guy who recalled you quite well even recalling your departure to Chrysler....  Your boss was DePetro...  Your Nickname was "Captn John".

Anyway perhaps with this the partisan bashing of the book that I authored that was written entirely from information gained from the Norwood retirees will cease here on this board.  It really needs to - life is far too short.


I am glad you and the CRG decided to edit your assembly process document on March 14 th of this year to remove glaring inadequacies such as "Norwood not having onsite rail load out"  That was kind of embarrassing  It was built in 1964.  I happen to have the blueprints for the plant... all of them - an entire truck load infact.     Who knows perhaps the sign in log may surface too one day that will show your name.  After rummaging through attics over the years nothing surprises me anymore


So you see John I did my research and quite well -- please credit your most recent edit to the assembly Process to the Men of Norwood-  They deserve it.


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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2013, 03:35:45 PM »

festival

Where are these meetings and is anyone invited to attend?  Depending on the venue and my schedule I would be interested to hear what these guys have to say.

Oh, and it would be nice if you answered questions people asked you.

Nobody knows everything - but most of us are willing to learn. 


Sure you are welcome to attend.. want to display your car?  That is the best part!
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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2013, 03:54:11 PM »

Phil,
So, that's the CRG-shattering news?? John's edits on the assembly report were done many months before your book even came out. They just didn't make it onto the site til recently - Bryon helped get them into HTML cause I'm swamped.

Interesting that you insist on answers but never answer questions asked of you.

For some unknown reason, you seem have a personal axe to grind with the CRG. A *serious* researcher would discuss their research to the benefit of the hobby.
Jerry MacNeish and JohnZ both do. Jon Mello started a new forum category to discuss T/A cars and invited all the original drivers and builders to participate and they do.

Instead of helping the hobby by including the Norwood employees in the discussion, you use them for your attacks - I doubt that is what they wish to happen with their knowledge. Why not include them in the discussion, ala the T/A forum? The T/A guys are as older or older and managed to join the forum.

So, what are you doing to benefit the hobby - other than just stirring the pot??
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« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2013, 03:59:59 PM »

After reading all this I wouldn't buy that book if it was on the 99 cent rack. Your too arrogant for me.
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« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2013, 04:02:21 PM »

Phil,
So, that's the CRG-shattering news?? John's edits on the assembly report were done many months before your book even came out. They just didn't make it onto the site til recently - Bryon helped get them into HTML cause I'm swamped.

Interesting that you insist on answers but never answer questions asked of you.

For some unknown reason, you seem have a personal axe to grind with the CRG. A *serious* researcher would discuss their research to the benefit of the hobby.
Jerry MacNeish and JohnZ both do. Jon Mello started a new forum category to discuss T/A cars and invited all the original drivers and builders to participate and they do.

Instead of helping the hobby by including the Norwood employees in the discussion, you use them for your attacks - I doubt that is what they wish to happen with their knowledge. Why not include them in the discussion, ala the T/A forum? The T/A guys are as older or older and managed to join the forum.

So, what are you doing to benefit the hobby - other than just stirring the pot??

Kurt,

I have saved all of the threads where you and others from the CRG have stalked me on the internet over the years..

 Where I would find information that came directly from an original source at Norwood and dared post it you were there with the cold water to throw on it all while using the flawed assembly process to make your case for what was "correct".

I am involving the T/A guys.. but I have to say exchanges where you approach people just like you did here will never entice any of the Norwood retirees to participate EVER.

I am stirring the pot by telling the truth.    If the book brings no benefit to the hobby you and I simply operate on a different plain altogether.

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« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2013, 04:04:38 PM »

After reading all this I wouldn't buy that book if it was on the 99 cent rack. Your too arrogant for me.

The plant was a big shouldered place.  No place for thin skinned folks.  it is what it is.
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2013, 04:05:02 PM »

I feel bad that things have come to this embarrassing impasse.. I bore witness to Phil researching this plant over the last bunch of years and watched as Kurt was all but begged to jump on board and right the wrongs... For many years I have been at odds with these guys about the huge lack of inclusion of " The Human Element " that belongs in this hobby.. I was very very irritated when friends of mine restored cars according to Johns assembly process as if it were gospel...only to find out they suffered through a subframe up built for nothing. I have personally been belittled by ALL CRG guys ( except for John whose been very nice to me )on many occasions..
I can absolutely appreciate and understand when a guy like John appears that someone should embrace and capture the knowledge... But to always take the hard line and the" I know and you don't" attitude is going to be this groups undoing... and very soon.
I am completely mystified why every single core member of this website has stopped short of embracing these terrific guys from Norwood..I'm shocked that these guys have not taken up residency for each Gathering and collected their own info from the retirees. For two years now I have gone and had these fine fellows nearly all to myself.. Brian Henderson and I ask the craziest questions and get either and honest " I don't know " and a fantastically simple answer.. All of you guys are cheating yourselves out of finding that pot of gold you've always longed for in this hobby..
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2013, 04:07:57 PM »

Kurt,,

For the sake of complete transparency:   http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2510094833/m/6851072846/p/1

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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2013, 04:19:09 PM »

Oh and by the way.. I am the guy that asked the painted trim tag question... I stood there before dozens of these guys and the agreed to answer was " So we could see the tag ".. and yes they were the Chevy side guys.. You can get in your car and drive to Norwood next year and ask the same question again if you'd like.. And if you start with the I'm too poor or busy bologney then PM me and I'll do what I can to get you there myself

Know that Phil Borris does not own these guys.. He does not have a contract or lock on their attention.. He's quite simply the first guy to man up and use his own money, time and lifesblood to do it.. These retirees will sit with any single one of you and be your friend,,, they will thank you for coming and thank you for caring about what they did for a living... they will

Do it before you embarrass yourselves any further

ARG is exactly where they pushed the engineless gliders.. Its where they sent an amazing amount of cars for repair... The reason for AGR was to FIX an imperfect system... imperfect.. get it? just like a human being.. imperfect
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2013, 05:10:36 PM »

I was very very irritated when friends of mine restored cars according to Johns assembly process as if it were gospel...only to find out they suffered through a subframe up built for nothing.

Just curious as I'm mostly an Impala guy, what difference is that process going to make with the finished product?  You wouldn't be able to tell how a Impala was restored by looking at it.  Is it different with Camaros?  Will if affect the value of the car?

If I belittled you in the past, please let me know where an when.
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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2013, 06:03:10 PM »

If I belittled you in the past, please let me know where an when.

That goes double for me. I have heard I'm banned over there but have no idea why.
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2013, 06:30:54 PM »

Phil and Tom,
I've been asked in multiple PM's and emails why I don't ban both of you.
Well, because I don't like to ban anyone. But slander and personal attacks are *NOT* allowed here. Any more posts in that tone and you're gone.

Discuss the topic, not the person.
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« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2013, 07:07:22 PM »

.
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2013, 07:16:46 PM »

Phil and Tom,
I've been asked in multiple PM's and emails why I don't ban both of you.
Well, because I don't like to ban anyone. But slander and personal attacks are *NOT* allowed here. Any more posts in that tone and you're gone.

Discuss the topic, not the person.

Thanks Kurt,

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to post here at the CRG.
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« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2013, 07:18:37 PM »

Oh and by the way.. I am the guy that asked the painted trim tag question... I stood there before dozens of these guys and the agreed to answer was " So we could see the tag ".. and yes they were the Chevy side guys.

This whole thing seem to go arwy when a simple question was asked, by me I think.  What were the Chevy guys looking at on the tag, and why did they need it?  Now we've gone 3 or so pages to long, everyones pissed off, and we still have no answer, does no one any good in the long haul.

Unfortunately I can't post on the Pacecar site.
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« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2013, 10:18:15 PM »

Why haven't the Norwood guys and gals chimed in...in the past or now? Especially in the past if procedures were not expressed to there recollection?
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« Reply #76 on: April 15, 2013, 12:10:16 PM »

unfortunately lead some fanatical restorers to raise drivetrains up to the body with the front sheetmetal already installed following your instruction to the letter... 100% correct for an LA car but laughable for a Norwood car.
I mean to tell you some Guys actually did this type of restoration and it was 100% wrong for a NOR build.
Two questions (that Warren asked above):
I'm confused. Both Phil and Tom say that people followed the assembly article and misassembled their NOR cars. Can you please explain how you could tell in a finished car?

Other than this detail in the differences in the plants, are there other known issues in John's article?  So far, you've just attacked it. Why not discuss issues with it, if there are any?
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« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2013, 07:58:21 PM »


  we are all just people after all and we need to bear in mind that to be a true patroit of a cause,one needs to be constructive not destructive.i would never have reserectied this topic if i didn`t have something in it i valued and wanted to share.just to show that something so trival can be the one special thing that rings true to the heart. Hurts to have it blasted when you try to share what made it important to you in the first place .this 6 page monster i see here, it demonizes both , as in arguing with a fool , but i see no fools here.i care not what cred you think you have .
i want to judge not ,least ye be judged. only hope that what is shared here is productive human endevor...thanks.... i end my particpation on this topic   
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« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2013, 08:42:31 PM »

 
  I'm curions how the paint was applied. Spray can or a spray gun with a small fan setting.  Huh

Mike
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« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2013, 01:27:23 AM »

Festival78

" I have personally been belittled by ALL CRG guys ( except for John whose been very nice to me )on many occasions.. "

I don't know or care who you are, or what you know. I have never belittled you, or festival. I was planning to order the book, but if the contents are anything like the contents of this thread, I don't want a copy.
Jumping on line and making statements that everyone else is wrong, and you are right, just buy my book and see for yourself, may sell a few copies. I can only presume that is the sole purpose of your postings here, because of the total lack of evidence to back the claims that have been posted.

You are welcome to your opinions, but based on what I have seen to date, you will never see a purchase from me.

tom
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« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2013, 06:46:41 AM »

I will let the Norwood guys know the bashing has started again so they can watch you guys in action.
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« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2013, 08:36:23 AM »

Why haven't the Norwood guys and gals chimed in...in the past or now? Especially in the past if procedures were not expressed to there recollection?

I think this is a valid question, keep in mind most of these folks did this as a job and may not actively be in hobby, they would also be 43+/- years older and perhaps do not utilize technology like some of us do. It also took someone to organize them, spend his own money, interview each one of them and translate that information into a book and I am sure this was not easy to do. I have always been a person that tries to see the other side of the story as well. I have read this string and there might be a legitimate reason why Phil may not be able to answer specific questions or provide examples from his book, maybe publishers/distributors don't want to see that...No idea if his information is correct or inaccurate but with anything else in life you will need to decide for yourself. Personally, being in the hobby actively for a few years and still learning I would order a copy of the book and see for myself.
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« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2013, 08:36:49 AM »

I'd like to apologize to all the members of this forum who think they are " CRG Guys "  My verb-age was directed strictly to the " Core Members" (for lack of a better word) or better: The guys that can actually see the data base and make decisions.. Not just posting active members...

To the fellows that do not understand, I agree that all finished Camaros look alike and that its the restoration and journey getting there that matters to hard corel Camaro restorers... I am sorry you don't understand that aspect.. It very rewarding to attempt to restore in the same sequence Chevy did.. I realize many of you don't restore.. I should have realized your cyber only. Again.. sorry

Tom McGinnity Roll Eyes
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« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2013, 09:08:55 AM »


Tom, I didn't realize that GM sanded and filled the subframes, then painted them with a Polyurethane paint system, as your car was.  What part of a proper "restoration" document was that posted in?  Your car is VERY nice, much nicer than mine, and probably way nicer than it was when it rolled out the door 46 years ago, but if we're going to start the proper restoration discusiions, why don't we start there.  What is an acceptable deviation from "factory" before a restoration becomes a restificaton?  I know mine falls into the second, not because there is anything non stock about it, but because of how its been repainted, options added that it didn't have originally, etc.

Phil, how did the enamel paint testing go, any of the retirees remember painting the 03C cars that way?

Note these are not attacks, (unless some part of them are not true) just questions about the process.
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« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2013, 09:34:16 AM »

Hey Tom do me a favor and tell me how this car was put together. You said we restore our cars incorrectly. What do I need to do to make it right. I'm losing sleep and it has me on the verge of a breakdown. I know it's only a few pictures but maybe you can tell since your up on all the details from Norwood.

MY CAR
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« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2013, 10:10:18 AM »

Good Morning guys..  Well my Pacer thats finished was done to " drive" and practice on for when I do my Festival car.. Thanks for the compliments on my first attempt.. I think it came out great and is quite a nod to all that Happened those months in Indy... I like it but I built it my way

My friend Gary Bieler on the other hand built his Norwood car following John Z's recollections of the plant he visited in 69 so he could live the experience as best he could.. He spent an abundance of time building it Los Angeles style and should be apologized to by all of you for being so insistent that John was right all those years with zero wavering...Thats why at my site we at least try most of the time to be open minded about changes and unkowns

The enamel thing is going SLOWLY with no reasons exposed to date as to why that or something else so special happened that they stopped Pacer production completely the following week.. OR it took that next week to finish the 03C's.. I can't wait to someday find the truth.. you on the other hand already know it couldn't happen because you were there I suppose

I have a picture of Garys endeavor that I will post if needed..

tmodel66? no.. the end results are the same.. You of course have no interest in building them trying to follow the Norwood timeline.. and thats OK.. funny why all of you loved the timeline so much though... I guess up until recently?
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« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2013, 10:11:12 AM »


Tom, I didn't realize that GM sanded and filled the subframes, then painted them with a Polyurethane paint system, as your car was.  What part of a proper "restoration" document was that posted in?  Your car is VERY nice, much nicer than mine, and probably way nicer than it was when it rolled out the door 46 years ago, but if we're going to start the proper restoration discusiions, why don't we start there.  What is an acceptable deviation from "factory" before a restoration becomes a restificaton?  I know mine falls into the second, not because there is anything non stock about it, but because of how its been repainted, options added that it didn't have originally, etc.

Phil, how did the enamel paint testing go, any of the retirees remember painting the 03C cars that way?

Note these are not attacks, (unless some part of them are not true) just questions about the process.

Mark,

I will let Tom speak to his portion of your question that addresses him.

Your contention (years ago when I was doing the 03-C Paint research) was that a build like that was technically impossible.  You contended that the cars could have not have been painted in any other paint system other than Lacquer at the factory.  Your conclusion was based in part on your understanding of the assembly process - and a contention that a car could not ever have been assembled without paint - therefore any other paint system other than lacquer from GM was impossible.

Some additional information:   Multiple workers and supervisors recall from time to time small batches of cars where the paint line was "inactive" meaning cars went through and were not painted.  These cars were assembled entirely through to the final line wearing only the prime coat and painted later.   

For those of you with the book turn to page 89 where the GM Build documentation is shown directing the factory to build just such a car.   "VEHICLE NOT TO BE PAINTED SHIP IN PRIME"

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« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2013, 12:16:55 PM »

Garys car
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« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2013, 12:18:10 PM »

Gary will NOT be doing this method with his 04A Festival Pacecar in the coming years...
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« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 12:22:45 PM »

Come on, its been 5 years now.  My contention about it not being possible came about because you said they just painted them in enamel, shut down the drying tunnels, and let the enamel painted cars go thru without regard to the other 912 cars being built on that day.  I don't beleive we ever got into a car being made and not painted a finish color at all, as the other cars have never been of interest to you.  By your own data you know the PC's arrived at the GM side spaced about 8 to 15 apart or more (don't forget they were making non Pace car convertibles at the same time  so some may be spaced 20, 30 or 50 apart from one another) , so you know there we regular cars interspaced between the PCs and they could not have been built in a 50 car group (ie one after the other) so the ovens gould not have been shutdown so some enamel painted cars could pass.  I had asked where GM could have painted 50 some odd cars in enamel, and was told that the mechanics of how it was done was not important, just that it was done.  I beleive that was when I got tossed from your site, I guess I sort of said the emporer had no cloths, and now all of sudden there is one car (maybe there are others) shipped in prime and that now applies to the PCs.  It's possible I suppose but there has never been a story of the PCs being shipped in prime and painted elsewhere so I would think tying one build to another is going to be a stretch.
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« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2013, 01:00:55 PM »

Come on, its been 5 years now.  My contention about it not being possible came about because you said they just painted them in enamel, shut down the drying tunnels, and let the enamel painted cars go thru without regard to the other 912 cars being built on that day.  I don't beleive we ever got into a car being made and not painted a finish color at all, as the other cars have never been of interest to you.  By your own data you know the PC's arrived at the GM side spaced about 8 to 15 apart or more (don't forget they were making non Pace car convertibles at the same time  so some may be spaced 20, 30 or 50 apart from one another) , so you know there we regular cars interspaced between the PCs and they could not have been built in a 50 car group (ie one after the other) so the ovens gould not have been shutdown so some enamel painted cars could pass.  I had asked where GM could have painted 50 some odd cars in enamel, and was told that the mechanics of how it was done was not important, just that it was done.  I beleive that was when I got tossed from your site, I guess I sort of said the emporer had no cloths, and now all of sudden there is one car (maybe there are others) shipped in prime and that now applies to the PCs.  It's possible I suppose but there has never been a story of the PCs being shipped in prime and painted elsewhere so I would think tying one build to another is going to be a stretch.


It has been 5 years you are right about that.  I was getting bits and pieces at that time pertaining to the pace cars being in a line in plant and I  just like you was trying to apply the CRG assembly process to what I was hearing at NOR from the guys--boy that was tough.

Finally I quit trying to apply the assembly process and I just started listing to what I was being told from the guys who did the work and directed the work. 

The Blue Prints for the plant cleared things up nicely too.

For those of you following along in the book page 135 is instructive to Mark and his ongoing confusion. 

Fisher Body also had the Surge Bank where body release was spaced for paint and trim assembly operations where - the order of assembly on the Fisher Side was established after the unit was released from the body shop. 

Convertibles were spaced along at this point for paint, hard and Soft Trim. 

"Body shop could crank out Convertibles right in a row there was no roof to put on it was less work"   (That is a direct research quote)



BTW... Mark- you are out of free questions for today. Grin




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« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2013, 01:04:36 PM »

I am stating here and now that holding guys against their theories right in the middle of formulation ( however long that takes) is against the unwritten rules.. Your response above about the answers you received 5 years ago bleeds to the fact that now you are soiling a major attempt at fact finding with your hard line nonsense about how things cannot be instead of how thing may have been.. nobody knows but clearly you don't have any curiosity, you only want to sound more knowledgeable to the readers and gain something from that.. I will never stop looking.. Phil clearly refuses to accept the never never attitude of the collective CRG and the dead stopping of theories you are famous for.. this above post makes that abundantly clear... Your response had you been a curious Pacecar lover would have been " whats the progress?" "anything I can do?" etc etc.. but its always always negative... you force people to venture forth without you.. and that in part has created Phils book.. I suppose thanks are in order because your hard line facts ( thats are now in questions on a few fronts at least ) have boxed you in... a lack of open mindedness and a lack of desire to find amazing anomalies is now and will forever be your Achilles Heel..

Your collective group has many boundless mistakes that I've never been admitted to.. I, on the other hand simply use the excuse that I'm still searching...thats openmindedness
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« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2013, 10:02:27 PM »

So what your telling me, and lets get our terms straight here, is that Fisher just sent their bodys down the assembly line in some nilly willy order (like perhaps the way they came over from GM) because their main restrictions in production were going to be convertibles, and vinyl tops and they didn't need to worry about that until the trim shop. And there was an area between the body shop, and the trim shop that allowed the 1500 lb body tubs to be taken out of the order they started production in and be reordered to pull out the convertibles, and cars with vinyl tops so they could go thru the trim shop with the higher work cars spaced out.  Wouldn't it have been easier and more efficient (key word in a manufacturing plant) to arrange the bodies in the proper order in the first place?  Once a car started down the line in a specific order, all of the parts could then begin flowing to the various work stations along the way in that locked order.  Getting 3/4 of the way thru the line and then jumbling them up would wreak havoc with the parts scheduling to each station following the jumble.

You do know the difference between a surge bank (and I am using your term from above) and for lack of a better term a scheduling bank?  A surge bank is an area of an assembly plant where the normal 30 ft or so spacing between bodies (or whatever you are making) was reduced to next to nothing so you could build up a larger quantity of bodies in the same physical space, so that in the event of a line stoppage before your surge bank the following stations can continue working until the bank is exhausted.  Nothing changes order in a surge bank.  A scheduling bank contains multiple parallel paths which would allow one or more vehicles to be pulled of the main line so that a body following behind that car could be allowed to pass, thereby juggling the build sequence.  Whenever that happened (if it even could on fishers side) all the subsequent stations would have to be notified so the parts for the vehicle pulled aside could be removed from the line feeding that station.  I think you can see the chaos this would cause in a plant everytime it happened.  So we're saying that there were multiple parallel sets of rails for the towveyor karts to move along between the paint and trim shops to allow this potential scheduling disaster to occur?

Step back and look at the whole process, no matter whose description you want to use, the one on this site, yours, the retirees, or some combination of these plus any others out there.  Think how you would send a firewall down the line and get all of the correct parts assembled to it, and it shipped over to GM.  Try to remove the idiot factor where mistakes could be made, and try to minimize the potential for them to happen.  How would you want your factory to work.   When body number one started down the line at the beginning of the day, every station along the way got parts scheduled for body number 1 and placed into the station subfeed line, then body number 2 started out, and all the stations got parts for body number 2 on their part sub feed line, and this continued day in day out 912 times a day.  Any hiccup in the system caused things like an RS tail to get installed on a non RS body, or a red interior on a gold car.  These guys on the line didn't wait for the body to arrive at their station, then read the tag, or the UOIT's and then run off to find the correct parts, they were already there.
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« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2013, 11:52:46 PM »

Two questions (that Warren asked above):
I'm confused. Both Phil and Tom say that people followed the assembly article and misassembled their NOR cars. Can you please explain how you could tell in a finished car?

Other than this detail in the differences in the plants, are there other known issues in John's article?  So far, you've just attacked it. Why not discuss issues with it, if there are any?
As expected, no response on either question.
This whole conversation is going no where, just a whole lot of pot-stirring.

Closed.
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