Author Topic: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's  (Read 20934 times)

69camarox33

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69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« on: September 30, 2012, 09:42:57 PM »
Hello CRG Members,

Just seeing if someone could post some correct engine bay pictures for a 69 Z28. I have Jerry's book,but seeing if someone had some really good detailed pictures of their own or maybe from a car show.

Thanks,

69camarox33

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 11:35:50 PM »
Here are a two pictures/recommendations from william.  These pics are great!  ----  Black master cylinder, FTW!

April 1969 - Popular Hot Rodding


August 1969 - Road Test




KurtS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 12:26:07 AM »
Top pic has the diverter valve muffler welded to the body.
The bottom pic has the wiring harness tied to the heater hoses.
Kurt S
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william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 12:31:40 AM »
Thanks David!

The photos show some interesting differences. #1 has a strap on the alternator bracket to retain the heater hoses. #2 has a ty-wrap. The air cleaner mesh and diverter valves differ. #1 doesn't have a 302 decal on the lid. Both have top terminal reverse-polarity batteries.

#1 was a very early production car. Hot Rod, Sports Car Graphic and Popular Hot Rodding used it for testing. Hot Rod kept it and did some mods featured in the May' 69 issue along with a few good photos. With 5.38 gears it went 12.73/110.

#2 was probably built Feb-March as it was featured in August mags. JL8 with a yellow interior. Car Life had a cross-ram installed.

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2012, 12:27:41 AM »
Kurt & William,  

You guys are amazing.  There are so many details that I end up missing!!!  I am hoping that when I get my 69Z finished that you guys can help me make corrections.

I saw a really nice 69Z at the 2012 Camaro Nationals.  It was it's third and final year there.  I can spot obvious issues like the incorrect "red top" R-59 instead of the "yellow top" Y-55 and that the air cleaner is an obvious reproduction, but I am probably missing a dozen other restoration issues.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV-57Bzyz3k

And three pictures:










restore-z28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2012, 12:44:19 PM »
JohnZ also has a great '69Z and the car is very original. Should try to get him to post some pics of his engine bay.  
Sonny

1969 Z28 Camaro
1970 Z28 Camaro

www.bccamaroclub.com

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 04:00:53 PM »
Here are a couple of mine, less the air cleaner.
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
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dannystarr

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 04:43:30 PM »
DavidS, Looks like the right rear spark plug shield may be a repro. As it has no notch in it. JohnZ and the guys can be sure. Hey John, why isn't your hood hinges and spring assemblies gray phos??.... Danny

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 05:17:16 PM »
Thanks Danny!

I met the owner of the 69 Z at the Camaro Nationals and he was a super nice guy.  He answered loads of my questions.  I really fell in love with his Z/28 and I am trying to make my car like his.  I'm using his car as a model for my restoration.




DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 05:20:07 PM »
Here are a couple of mine, less the air cleaner.

Great pictures John.  Thanks for posting them!  Between the magazine pictures, your pictures, and pictures at the Camaro Nationals I should be able to get my Z looking as it should.




william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 11:15:28 PM »
The rocker cover to air cleaner hose is not correct. Should be a 3/4" to 1" 90 elbow.

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 04:43:26 PM »
Hey John, why isn't your hood hinges and spring assemblies gray phos??.... Danny

My hood hinges are 100% original, and have never been touched; they weren't "gray" to begin with - they were dark phosphate. "Gray" hinges have been restored (incorrectly).

dannystarr

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 08:52:40 PM »
WOW, talk about learning something important. I wonder who started that trend and when.  Just like the coil bracket I bought off ebay cause it had a notch in it. You straightened me out on that and many other things. Well thanx as always.....  Danny

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 08:48:27 PM »
Thanks David!

The photos show some interesting differences. #1 has a strap on the alternator bracket to retain the heater hoses. #2 has a ty-wrap. The air cleaner mesh and diverter valves differ. #1 doesn't have a 302 decal on the lid. Both have top terminal reverse-polarity batteries.

#1 was a very early production car. Hot Rod, Sports Car Graphic and Popular Hot Rodding used it for testing. Hot Rod kept it and did some mods featured in the May' 69 issue along with a few good photos. With 5.38 gears it went 12.73/110.

#2 was probably built Feb-March as it was featured in August mags. JL8 with a yellow interior. Car Life had a cross-ram installed.

For #2, I just got the August 1969 Car Life.  Here's the engine pics with the cross-ram.  From the article, it appears they were very disappointed with the cross-ram.


Here's a link to the larger picture: http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l604/1969Z/Misc/yellowZ.jpg


DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 09:01:43 PM »
and here's another pic of #1 from Hot Rod, January 1969:



William, By any chance have you ever seen a DZ 302 in a color picture, in a 1969 or a 1970 magazine?

william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
Nope. Other than the cover and possibly a feature car color was rare in magazines back in the '60s. The only color engine photo I recall was the L78 in the Mr Bardahl '68 Camaro SS.

As for Car Life and the cross-ram you have to wonder what they expected. The test car had exhaust manifolds and 4.10 gears-even a stock Z/28 was a mutt with that setup. The July '68 Car and Driver had a '68 Z/28 from Chevy engineering with everything imaginable. The engineer with the car stated the cross-ram was for track use only, designed to work at sustained high rpm. That's 1,200 cfm of carburation. I bought the remains of a T/A car in the '80s and the owner said even on the track a cross-ram was hard to drive.

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2013, 07:42:07 PM »
Top pic has the diverter valve muffler welded to the body.
The bottom pic has the wiring harness tied to the heater hoses.
My 08C car has the same plastic tie holding the harness to the heater hoses. Not sure when they may have switched to this.
To camarox33 I would suggest along with finding original pictures, looking at some original cars at shows, I have learned more from seeing original unrestored engine bays then seeing the pictures of guys camaros that you could eat off of. Any engine compartment that is super clean has had its share of refurbishment and resto to make it look that way. My car has 46k which is on the high side if your looking for original finish and color. There are a few low milage cars still out there that have been stored well, this will put you on the right path.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2013, 08:18:07 PM »
Something I noticed was the first pic shows the power steering cap as the plastic multi rib top.  When was the transition from the other 2 rib metal cap?  My Nov built 307 car had the 2 rib metal cap..?..  Was it another case of multiple suppliers?
Darrell Cook

1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 11:09:48 PM »
Thanks David!

The photos show some interesting differences. #1 has a strap on the alternator bracket to retain the heater hoses. #2 has a ty-wrap. The air cleaner mesh and diverter valves differ. #1 doesn't have a 302 decal on the lid. Both have top terminal reverse-polarity batteries.

#1 was a very early production car. Hot Rod, Sports Car Graphic and Popular Hot Rodding used it for testing. Hot Rod kept it and did some mods featured in the May' 69 issue along with a few good photos. With 5.38 gears it went 12.73/110.

#2 was probably built Feb-March as it was featured in August mags. JL8 with a yellow interior. Car Life had a cross-ram installed.

For #2, I just got the August 1969 Car Life.  Here's the engine pics with the cross-ram.  From the article, it appears they were very disappointed with the cross-ram.


Here's a link to the larger picture: http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l604/1969Z/Misc/yellowZ.jpg



So what's the sticker on the radiator shroud?
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 11:21:25 PM »
just the timing decal, I think the LA cars it was more common to see it on the shroud, where Norwood cars it would be on the radiator support just to the right of center.

william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 11:32:23 PM »
The installation requirement in the AIM is "Tune-up sticker must be readable from front of vehicle" so either works but A/C cars could not have it on the core support.

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2013, 01:08:40 AM »
There are a few low milage cars still out there that have been stored well, this will put you on the right path.

If there are some 69 Z/28's with very low miles and stored well, I hope they post up some pics of their original unrestored engine bay.  I really like the pictures that JohnZ has posted.

My Z had 8 owners before me and most of the former owners made changes and repairs.  It only had 59,000 miles on it when I bought it but changes were made.  Even looking at 1969 magazines, it seems that day 2 changes were being made right on day 2.

my engine before restoration:


after restoration pics:




BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 05:44:04 AM »
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11009.45
here is the link regarding engine hooks, it has a good link to a 70 Z
with 1100 miles on it.
If you are looking for good original pics even though this is a 70, this is the kind of authentic images that will steer you in the right direction. You will notice that even though it only has 1100 miles all the finishes have a small amount of patina, the engine block is missing a little bit of paint, but all the brackets and bolts are what it left the factory with. They have not been removed re-plated and re-installed and then said to be all original. All original to me says original finish from the factory, not just factory correct.
They are only original once. Think about that, the original paint, plating, finish on the original part speaks volumes to if it is authentic/correct.
I think if you start from original, then the only thing you have to decipher is: are the date codes on your sample car or picture close enough to your own car to use it as a guide for your car.
Again just my 2 cents

ownedsince74

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 10:05:21 PM »
On the carb linkage for the cowl induction, does the flange that holds the switch go towards firewall?

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2013, 11:41:32 PM »
<< On the carb linkage for the cowl induction, does the flange that holds the switch go towards firewall? >>

The flange on the retainer clip goes on the back side of the bracket on the throttle arm, facing the firewall.

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2013, 02:54:30 PM »
Here's a better engine picture. If anything is not correct, please let me know.  I know there are a few things that I still have to fix.  Thanks!


william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2013, 04:22:41 PM »
Upper control arms were assembled to the shaft with the bushings, then dip painted black. Ball joint added afterwards. So the shafts were painted to begin with but it did not adhere well. If you look closely at the Hot Rod test car it is apparent.

Very well done engine bay David!

6667ss138

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2013, 06:56:27 PM »
Yes, very impressive David.
Learning lots here for when I do mine down the road. CRG is by far the best source for original resto info that I have found.
Len H.  Kansas
1969 Z/28 07A X77D80 Hugger Orange/Black Vinyl Top, born with drive train, complete 3 owner history.
1967 Chevelle SS396 138 Convertible/Red/Black int.
1966 Chevelle SS396 138 4sp California/Smog/Black/Red int. POP, born with drive train, original CA black plates

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 11:12:23 PM »
Upper control arms were assembled to the shaft with the bushings, then dip painted black. Ball joint added afterwards. So the shafts were painted to begin with but it did not adhere well. If you look closely at the Hot Rod test car it is apparent.

Very well done engine bay David!

William,

   Were the washer and bolts added after the A-arm was mounted to the frame, or was it part of the completed and painted assembly (minus the tightening of the bolts of course).

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

KurtS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 02:37:07 AM »
Something I noticed was the first pic shows the power steering cap as the plastic multi rib top.  When was the transition from the other 2 rib metal cap?  My Nov built 307 car had the 2 rib metal cap..?..  Was it another case of multiple suppliers?
I've been watching PS caps for years - never seen an original 69 Camaro with a metal one. Possibly other car lines.....
There was a big discussion about them in the past.

william

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 02:52:48 AM »
Upper control arms were assembled to the shaft with the bushings, then dip painted black. Ball joint added afterwards. So the shafts were painted to begin with but it did not adhere well. If you look closely at the Hot Rod test car it is apparent.

Very well done engine bay David!

William,

   Were the washer and bolts added after the A-arm was mounted to the frame, or was it part of the completed and painted assembly (minus the tightening of the bolts of course).

Mike

Washer and bolt were installed and painted with the control arm. The only vintage road test photo I know of where it is clearly visible is the July '68 PHR test of a '68 Camaro SS.

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2013, 03:21:12 AM »
Hi William,

  So if one were to be a completely die-hard nut for accuracy then the bolts (painted) should show signs of edge paint mar due to tightening. Similar to the painted alternator bracket mounting stud on 396 motors that had a nut installed during engine dressing.

Mike

cook_dw

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2013, 04:25:08 AM »
Something I noticed was the first pic shows the power steering cap as the plastic multi rib top.  When was the transition from the other 2 rib metal cap?  My Nov built 307 car had the 2 rib metal cap..?..  Was it another case of multiple suppliers?
I've been watching PS caps for years - never seen an original 69 Camaro with a metal one. Possibly other car lines.....
There was a big discussion about them in the past.

I found the thread after a search & I am still not sure it can be 100% confirmed that all 69's came with the plastic cap...  Personally I would think either or would be acceptable (assuming the metal cap was painted black).  67-8 would be zinc'd or natural.  I actually just re-zinc'd 2 metal caps this morning.  One was painted black with zinc underneath & the other was just zinc...  One that was just zinc has a longer plastic dipstick & is clear or yellowed from age.








JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2013, 04:02:00 PM »
Hi William,

  So if one were to be a completely die-hard nut for accuracy then the bolts (painted) should show signs of edge paint mar due to tightening. Similar to the painted alternator bracket mounting stud on 396 motors that had a nut installed during engine dressing.

Mike

The end bushing bolts were tightened at Chevrolet-Warren (in a fixture that pre-set the angle of the upper control arm relative to the shaft) prior to painting; the bushing bolts would have no tool marks of any kind through the paint.

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2013, 07:10:57 PM »
 Thanks, John. That's good news in that the assembled unit would look cleaner with no paint mar's.
It is interesting to explain how the factory prepared a car back then to the viewing public when they see what looks to them like sloppy restoration work on our part.
Looking at page 102 in Echoes of Norwood it shows a clear view of the A-arm mounted and everything black.

Mike

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2013, 10:00:49 PM »
There are a few low milage cars still out there that have been stored well, this will put you on the right path.

If there are some 69 Z/28's with very low miles and stored well, I hope they post up some pics of their original unrestored engine bay.  I really like the pictures that JohnZ has posted.

My Z had 8 owners before me and most of the former owners made changes and repairs.  It only had 59,000 miles on it when I bought it but changes were made.  Even looking at 1969 magazines, it seems that day 2 changes were being made right on day 2.

my engine before restoration:


after restoration pics:





Wow Dave really like your car. Turned out very nice. excellent detail work. Very crisp and clean. I hope mine turns out that nice when I am done.
Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2013, 11:51:20 PM »
You may want to check your orientation on your exhaust heat riser valve, we are discussing this on another thread on CRG. I think one person said it looks like this in the AIM others had factory unrestored ones parallel with the frame rail, or maybe they were installed both ways?
Also I can't tell for sure but your spark plug boot shields should have a semi curve notch in them, I can't seem to see it on yours, but maybe they have them and your manifolds are to clean for me to tell from the pic.

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 12:26:15 AM »
Hey Dave what finish is on your alternator fan blade.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2013, 09:00:05 PM »
Upper control arms were assembled to the shaft with the bushings, then dip painted black. Ball joint added afterwards. So the shafts were painted to begin with but it did not adhere well. If you look closely at the Hot Rod test car it is apparent.

Very well done engine bay David!

Thanks William!  I have a very high regard for your opinion and I definitely appreciate your input.  I have learned an incredible amount on the CRG and I still have a lot to learn.

I have two more engine pics:







DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2013, 09:03:42 PM »
You may want to check your orientation on your exhaust heat riser valve, we are discussing this on another thread on CRG. I think one person said it looks like this in the AIM others had factory unrestored ones parallel with the frame rail, or maybe they were installed both ways?
Also I can't tell for sure but your spark plug boot shields should have a semi curve notch in them, I can't seem to see it on yours, but maybe they have them and your manifolds are to clean for me to tell from the pic.

I had the heat risers on the other way and I got a 1-point deduction for it.  Maybe some were installed the other way, I'm really not sure.

I'll check the spark plug boot shields.

Thanks!

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2013, 09:23:41 PM »
Hey David 2 questions. Is your Alternator fan zink plated and where did you get you rad hoses?

Thanks

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 09:34:41 PM »
with the new pics you posted, it is easier for me to see the spark plug boot shields look correct . BUT I see your heat riser valve positioned differently now as well. Is this the corrected pic?

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2013, 11:26:37 PM »
Looks quite NICE David. Love to see those detailed engine pictures. :)
Kind of hard to see in some nooks with the pictures but again, very nice. I had mentioned to you at the MD June meet about the a-arm dog bones and washer bolt combo not being painted black and the only thing I can note is the heater hoses dual clamp seems to be black painted but again hard to really know from the picture.   
Great looking Camaro David!

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2013, 02:07:45 AM »
Hey David 2 questions. Is your Alternator fan zink plated and where did you get you rad hoses?

Thanks

Hi Mike, I've been wracking my brain over the last few hours trying to remember some of the stuff I've done.  My wife and I bought a foreclosure house back in April and mentally I've been all over the place since then.  

Anyway....the original alternator fan was very rusty when I bought the car.  If I'm remembering right, I went with Zinc plating.  For the radiator hoses, I got them from pacecarjeff.




DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2013, 02:09:10 AM »
with the new pics you posted, it is easier for me to see the spark plug boot shields look correct . BUT I see your heat riser valve positioned differently now as well. Is this the corrected pic?
The 3 engine pics I posted recently (front pic and the 2 side pics) are all taken after the correction to the heat riser valve.

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2013, 02:18:07 AM »
Hey David 2 questions. Is your Alternator fan zink plated and where did you get you rad hoses?

Thanks

Hi Mike, I've been wracking my brain over the last few hours trying to remember some of the stuff I've done.  My wife and I bought a foreclosure house back in April and mentally I've been all over the place since then. 

Anyway....the original alternator fan was very rusty when I bought the car.  If I'm remembering right, I went with Zinc plating.  For the radiator hoses, I got them from pacecarjeff.





Thanks Dave that is what I thought. I just wanted to confirm. I blasted my original fan blade and will get it zink plated as well. Your upper Rad hose looks different than most that I have seen. I know Jeff is the guy to go to for the best hoses and clamps. Thanks for confirming.

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2013, 04:46:53 AM »
thanks David I think we are on the same page now. It looks like it is parallel to the frame in your more recent pics which is different then the AIM, so I am surprised they subtracted points for that. BUT it seems the way you have it now is the way some originals are being found.

DavidS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2013, 04:11:49 PM »
It looks like it is parallel to the frame in your more recent pics which is different then the AIM
Austin, You are referring to the 69 AIM, UPC N10, Sheet A2 shown below?

If so, it's not real clear to me how the heat riser goes on.  Do you have any other pages that show it better?


I took a close-up picture this morning of my car's heat riser.


A friend of mine has a 68 Camaro with a 327 that his Dad bought new in 1968.  He told me at least twice, before the Camaro Nationals, that I had it on backwards but I didn't take his advice.    When I added his advice plus the deduction, I decided to change it around.  Unless I have hard documentation to prove otherwise, I'm leaving it this way.


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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2013, 04:24:13 PM »
As someone pointed out in the 'heat riser discussion'...

UPC-6, sheet C6....the Engine Section

JohnZ's original car also has it oriented to match the AIM..   which was consistent with your original position..  Did you ask for clarification when you lost points on it?   Was the lost points for the heat riser itself, OR it's orientation only?
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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2013, 04:48:31 PM »
Thanks Gary!!!

Compared to UPC-6, sheet C6, I took it from being correct to being not correct.  Crud.  The heat riser is going to have more miles on it than the car.  LOL.



The deduction was 1 point.  Under "Exhaust Manifolds"........"Heat riser in wrong position".  I didn't see this judging info until after judging was done.  There was a lot of judging going on at the same time.




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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2013, 04:56:35 PM »
Here is a magazine photo of a 1968 Z28 test vehicle and you can see the heat riser.

   
Jerry G.

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2nd. Owner, 38,000 miles

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2013, 06:07:08 PM »
That is a GREAT pic Jerry!!!

69 AIM UPC-6, sheet C6 + JohnZ's car + 68 Magazine pic equals the heat riser goes the other way.



What magazine was the picture in?  Also, what is the month and year of the magazine?

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2013, 06:11:36 PM »
My car had headers on it when I purchased it in '76 (which is probably true of 99.9% of early Z28s.   I do have a set of very nice original exhaust manifolds that I will be installing (1st day take offs from a friend's TransAm car), but I didn't get the heat riser with them, so I'm trying to figure it out myself.   From the discussion to date, we do not seem to have a consensus as yet.  Personally I prefer the 'underneath' position that matches JOhnZ's car, the '68 magazine pix, and the AIM, assuming it doesn't interfere with anything, because that orientation seems to be a more 'neutral' position of the weight wrt gravity, and it's more out of the way.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 07:28:54 PM »
That is a GREAT pic Jerry!!!

69 AIM UPC-6, sheet C6 + JohnZ's car + 68 Magazine pic equals the heat riser goes the other way.



What magazine was the picture in?  Also, what is the month and year of the magazine?
Went back and checked some notes with that photo....was quoting from memory before...and the notes said that it was from some prior post by Jerry M. that originally came from the GM archives.  I saved it because it was a very clear underhood photo of a 1968 Z28 and that is what I own.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2013, 07:47:40 PM »
Thanks again Jerry!  I found a link to a larger version of that picture on this site:


« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:14:11 PM by DavidS »

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2013, 07:51:41 PM »
Great shot of the factory PTB stamps. Although faint even when new, they do appear quite crisp and clear.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2013, 08:01:47 PM »


Now, where have I seen that photo before?   ???   ;)   :D

Paul

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2013, 08:42:43 PM »
Now, where have I seen that photo before?   ???   ;)   :D

It looks like it was posted on Camaros.net back in 2007.  169Indy wrote: "I have a GM photo, copy (SCANNED) of the 68 Z28 engine bay photo that was printed in the Camaro Enthusiast a few years ago and rarely see people reference it with regards to details. Appears to be a Norwood car as evidence by the PTB stampings."

Ed Bertrand posted the picture for 169Indy.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2013, 10:21:45 PM »
Thanks again Jerry!  I found a link to a larger version of that picture on this site:




Anyone else notice the grease pencil mark on the firewall above the top heater hose? SO? SQ 5O?
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2013, 10:24:04 PM »
Thanks again Jerry!  I found a link to a larger version of that picture on this site:






Anyone else notice the grease pencil mark on the firewall above the top heater hose? SO? SQ 5O?


Yes I noticed that as well. Didn't Lloyds car have the same marking?

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2013, 10:51:33 PM »
The number is probably 50, which is the production sequence number.  Don't know about Lloyd's but my 1968 has the marking in the same area.  Mine is the number 22. This number also appears on the inside of the front valence panel and also on the back side of my spare tire.

Here is a photo of my firewall.....
 
          

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2013, 11:09:58 PM »
His had BLACK and the PTB on the pass side but no sequence number on the firewall, it was  (80) on the top of the fuel tank and the top of the heater box.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2013, 12:51:50 AM »
His had BLACK and the PTB on the pass side but no sequence number on the firewall, it was  (80) on the top of the fuel tank and the top of the heater box.

Yes that was it. I thought it was a 50. All good info James.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2013, 01:22:55 AM »
Great shot of the factory PTB stamps. Although faint even when new, they do appear quite crisp and clear.
Why is the "P" a reverse stamp on the right side and upside down on the left side?  How did they do a reverse stamp? Upside down is very common. George

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2013, 01:26:55 AM »
Great shot of the factory PTB stamps. Although faint even when new, they do appear quite crisp and clear.
Why is the "P" a reverse stamp on the right side and upside down on the left side?  How did they do a reverse stamp? Upside down is very common. George

Good question.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2013, 02:52:34 AM »
It looks like it is parallel to the frame in your more recent pics which is different then the AIM
Austin, You are referring to the 69 AIM, UPC N10, Sheet A2 shown below?

If so, it's not real clear to me how the heat riser goes on.  Do you have any other pages that show it better?


I took a close-up picture this morning of my car's heat riser.


A friend of mine has a 68 Camaro with a 327 that his Dad bought new in 1968.  He told me at least twice, before the Camaro Nationals, that I had it on backwards but I didn't take his advice.    When I added his advice plus the deduction, I decided to change it around.  Unless I have hard documentation to prove otherwise, I'm leaving it this way.



David, did you have any points deducted for the spark plug shields shown in your picture? Those (the screw on type) should be I thought on the left side and the brackets that the shields screw into were part of the engine so they should be painted orange. That is what I thought the AIM shows along with original cars and past discussions. Jon Mello had a picture of those brackets he took off his 67Z back in the day. 

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2013, 04:17:42 AM »
Dave I would think the judges are basing there judgements after looking at original cars with it positioned parallel to the frame? would be nice if Jerry M would weigh in on this....

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2013, 07:03:40 AM »
I wasn't sure if mine were correct without the screws on the passenger side. I knew they were original, but I thought maybe the hex screws broke off at first glance,
thanks for that bit of info Chick !

not a great pic, but here is mine:



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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2013, 07:09:46 AM »
oh yea, don't mind that cable in the pic, the original owner was so worried about the motor mounts he had a cable installed on the passenger side as well as the factory recommended driver side. That motor isn't going anywhere....

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2013, 09:10:30 PM »
David, did you have any points deducted for the spark plug shields shown in your picture? Those (the screw on type) should be I thought on the left side and the brackets that the shields screw into were part of the engine so they should be painted orange. That is what I thought the AIM shows along with original cars and past discussions. Jon Mello had a picture of those brackets he took off his 67Z back in the day. 

Chick, THANKS!!!! 

I didn't get any deductions, but that was in the Bowtie class.  I'm positive they would catch that in the Legends class.  I've started making a list of all the things you've given me to research and fix. 

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2013, 09:14:55 PM »
I wasn't sure if mine were correct without the screws on the passenger side. I knew they were original, but I thought maybe the hex screws broke off at first glance,
thanks for that bit of info Chick !

not a great pic, but here is mine:

Thanks for the pic Austin!  There are some good threads on the CRG with pictures that also show this.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2013, 09:58:45 PM »
The 1968 Z/28 Engine Compartment picture came from the September/October 1996 Camaro Enthusiast.

Contents Page
for page 36
"ENGINE COMPARTMENT DETAILING '67 - '69
Many Camaro engine compartments are the same after '69 as far as what is
painted what.  Most '70 - '74 were identical with few exceptions.  However this
article is dedicated to the 1st Generation Owners.  The photo is a 1968 Z28
engine compartment from Chevrolet.  We reproduced the photo full size so you
may see the details, and then put the arrows with numbers on the same picture."

The article is pages 36-39.  The previous picture is page 36.  Here's pages 37 - 39.







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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2013, 10:16:33 PM »
  I assume this is only for the Z-28? I only ask this because of alternator fan/pulley finish differences I have seen between 2-piece and 1-piece pulley/fans designs.
Interesting how they list silver cad several times. I wonder if they confused it with silver zinc plating. I believe John Z stated on another thread that cad was not used much during the 1st gen production because of the known inherited health risks.

Mike

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2013, 10:25:16 PM »
Nice article on engine detailing ,post should be included in restoration as this often comes up.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2013, 11:43:02 PM »
Why is the "P" a reverse stamp on the right side and upside down on the left side?  How did they do a reverse stamp? Upside down is very common. George

Perhaps its an upside down, half-stamped "B".  :)
69 RS/SS Cortez Silver, L48 MC1
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69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2013, 01:02:57 AM »
The 1968 Z/28 Engine Compartment picture came from the September/October 1996 Camaro Enthusiast.

Contents Page
for page 36
"ENGINE COMPARTMENT DETAILING '67 - '69
Many Camaro engine compartments are the same after '69 as far as what is
painted what.  Most '70 - '74 were identical with few exceptions.  However this
article is dedicated to the 1st Generation Owners.  The photo is a 1968 Z28
engine compartment from Chevrolet.  We reproduced the photo full size so you
may see the details, and then put the arrows with numbers on the same picture."

The article is pages 36-39.  The previous picture is page 36.  Here's pages 37 - 39.


Great article David. Thanks for posting.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2013, 01:48:05 AM »
  I assume this is only for the Z-28? I only ask this because of alternator fan/pulley finish differences I have seen between 2-piece and 1-piece pulley/fans designs.
Interesting how they list silver cad several times. I wonder if they confused it with silver zinc plating. I believe John Z stated on another thread that cad was not used much during the 1st gen production because of the known inherited health risks.

Mike

I was thinking that the original prints called out cad or zinc plating as the finish and due to cost & what you referred to was the reasoning for the common use of zinc plate..


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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2013, 02:53:41 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2013, 03:39:07 AM »
Here is the picture Jon Mello supplied some time back showing the spark plug shield brackets that were attached to the engine and painted and then on the engine dress line the remainder of the shield was screwed on along with installation of the other sides one piece shields.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2013, 03:41:30 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

Hey Chick what do we know about cad plating now?

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2013, 03:47:16 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

Hey Chick what do we know about cad plating now?
Health/Cancer issue!

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2013, 03:50:59 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

Hey Chick what do we know about cad plating now?
Health/Cancer issue!

Are you referring to the plating process itself? What is the difference in health risk between Cad and Zink? Sorry I am new to this. Perhaps I should google it. Both processes are still in use correct?

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2013, 03:57:24 AM »
those are interesting pics did the passenger side ever come with screws? I noticed JohnZ has screws on his passenger side shields is why I ask. Maybe his got replaced at one point?

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2013, 04:00:48 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

Hey Chick what do we know about cad plating now?
Health/Cancer issue!

Are you referring to the plating process itself? What is the difference in health risk between Cad and Zink? Sorry I am new to this. Perhaps I should google it. Both processes are still in use correct?
I ain't no doctor Mike LOL :) but yes both processes are still in use. Cad producing shops are mostly used by the aeronautical and military sectors. Due to health concerns with cancer I believe those shops are closely monitored (OSHA).  We did not have any cad in any mfg. plants I worked in so NO expert here......

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2013, 04:08:14 AM »
JohnZ over the years has mentioned many times here and on other forums print spec's gave the supplier either option but since the clear zinc was cheaper that is what suppliers mostly used. This was before what we know now about cad plating.

Hey Chick what do we know about cad plating now?
Health/Cancer issue!

Are you referring to the plating process itself? What is the difference in health risk between Cad and Zink? Sorry I am new to this. Perhaps I should google it. Both processes are still in use correct?
I ain't no doctor Mike LOL :) but yes both processes are still in use. Cad producing shops are mostly used by the aeronautical and military sectors. Due to health concerns with cancer I believe those shops are closely monitored (OSHA).  We did not have any cad in any mfg. plants I worked in so NO expert here......

Thanks Chick I will follow up on it. Always good to be well informed if there are any hazards in our hobby.

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2013, 04:30:11 AM »
those are interesting pics did the passenger side ever come with screws? I noticed JohnZ has screws on his passenger side shields is why I ask. Maybe his got replaced at one point?
Maybe JohnZ will comment if he sees your post. Don't remember seeing a survivor with them on the passenger side but to be honest don't think I would have caught it over a couple years ago anyway. You would also think or wonder why the engine dress line would have brackets that were not used by them. 

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2013, 03:59:48 PM »
I noticed JohnZ has screws on his passenger side shields is why I ask. Maybe his got replaced at one point?
Maybe JohnZ will comment if he sees your post. Don't remember seeing a survivor with them on the passenger side but to be honest don't think I would have caught it over a couple years ago anyway. You would also think or wonder why the engine dress line would have brackets that were not used by them.  
[/quote]

The brackets on mine may not be original - they may have been changed or misplaced in 1970 when the "CE" block was installed; I never noticed.

Cadmium plating on automotive items and fasteners was eliminated many years ago (like 20-30) when cadmium was recognized as a carcinogen, and was replaced by zinc plating. About the only place you'll find cadmium plating today is in aircraft components, primarily in propeller shops.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2013, 03:19:01 AM »
I decided to do some test stamps today. However before I started I decided to clean up the stamps to see if I could yield a better result.

Here is the stamp before I worked on it. You can see all of the excess rubber around the B.



First I drilled out the holes in the B with a 3/16 drill. Here you can see the holes drilled in the B & The P.



Next I trimmed the excess material around the cut out Letters with a razor blade.



Then I tried a few test stamps with some latex paint and a piece of plywood. Not an ideal situation, but enough to indicate if I am going in the right direction. As you can see I used a foam brush to apply the paint to the stamps. I found that the key is to apply the least amount of paint possible. Next time I will try an even smaller foam brush and thinner paint on a metal surface. That should give me a better idea of how close I can get to what I am looking for.



The test turned out ok overall. The second one from the bottom was the first test and the driest. I also pressed the lightest on that stamp. The harder you press the more distorted the stamp will be. The rubber stamp is fairly form, but the black rubber underneath the clear rummer is very soft and compresses quite easily.


69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2013, 03:25:13 AM »
I decided to do some test stamps today. However before I started I decided to clean up the stamps to see if I could yield a better result.

Here is the stamp before I worked on it. You can see all of the excess rubber around the B.



First I drilled out the holes in the B with a 3/16 drill. Here you can see the holes drilled in the B & The P.



Next I trimmed the excess material around the cut out Letters with a razor blade.



Then I tried a few test stamps with some latex paint and a piece of plywood. Not an ideal situation, but enough to indicate if I am going in the right direction. As you can see I used a foam brush to apply the paint to the stamps. I found that the key is to apply the least amount of paint possible. Next time I will try an even smaller foam brush and thinner paint on a metal surface. That should give me a better idea of how close I can get to what I am looking for.



The test turned out ok overall. The second one from the bottom was the first test and the driest. I also pressed the lightest on that stamp. The harder you press the more distorted the stamp will be. The rubber stamp is fairly firm, but the black rubber underneath the clear rubber is very soft and compresses quite easily.


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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2013, 08:00:29 PM »
Has anyone thought about the possibility of Fisher Body use a stenciling "INK" not paint.
Stencil Ink does not have the same consistency as traditional paints.
just a idea.

We use "Stenciling" INK to label Electrical Bussing and mark Naval circuit breakers for various hulls in the DoD side of ships repair all the time.

It does not cover very well and stamps crisp and fades with time, ,,,

Jim
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2013, 09:11:08 PM »
  Interesting you mention 'ink". I have see a few original stamps and they look like a high solids ink to me instead of paint.
 Before I stripped my firewall in the 80's had only seen 2 stamps out of 3 on each side so that is all I put back on the car.
Back then there were no stamps for sale and the meaning of those were unknown so I made my own with tracing paper and rubber and very thinned model paint. Now, from CRG I learned that there was also a green color used and several original example pictures posted show the green being faded more than the orange. I'm sure not that must have been the case with my car and didn't realize there was a green because I only looked for the orange.
  Anyhow.....I'm going to try a high solids ink this time out.

Mike

BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2013, 09:30:22 PM »
Well my car only has the green on it, luckily nobody ever thought to " clean " up the engine compartment . But you can see the B was a lot more crisp than the P or the T.

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »
Has anyone thought about the possibility of Fisher Body use a stenciling "INK" not paint.
Stencil Ink does not have the same consistency as traditional paints.
just a idea.

We use "Stenciling" INK to label Electrical Bussing and mark Naval circuit breakers for various hulls in the DoD side of ships repair all the time.

It does not cover very well and stamps crisp and fades with time, ,,,

Jim

Believe several of us have been saying that for a few years. Wish we would find out from someone who worked there.  It has never looked like a paint to me due to be so transparent and thin in thickness. 

x77-69z28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2013, 12:27:15 AM »
When I restored my 67 RS/SS, I found the original PBT stamps on the firewall behind the fenders. They were definitely some kind of ink.
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69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2013, 02:20:24 AM »
Well my car only has the green on it, luckily nobody ever thought to " clean " up the engine compartment . But you can see the B was a lot more crisp than the P or the T.

The stamps I have look nothing like the originals when you compare them side by side. I am trying to find out if there is a supplier out there that makes a more accurate stamp.

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2013, 03:12:57 AM »
 I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

Mike

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2013, 04:46:16 PM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

Mike

All three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2013, 05:09:03 PM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

Mike

All three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.

Hi John,

  I assume it was a serial inspection method, so was it body first, then paint and finally trim?

Happy Holidays,
Mike

69Z28-RS

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

All three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.

John,  We all really appreciate your information and perspective, and I have a couple of questions concerned these 'marks' (understanding that I owned my car for over 30 yrs and never *saw* them, until getting on this camaro list.. :)..
1)  Why do some cars have the P T B on both side and and some only one one?
2)  Why do some cars have multiple stamps on one side of the car?  ie. My car had two T stamps... (one down below the trim tab)..
If you don't know of a specific reason for the above, I'd appreciate your 'best guess'...?

Gary

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2013, 08:25:02 PM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

All three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.

John,  We all really appreciate your information and perspective, and I have a couple of questions concerned these 'marks' (understanding that I owned my car for over 30 yrs and never *saw* them, until getting on this camaro list.. :)..
1)  Why do some cars have the P T B on both side and and some only one one?
2)  Why do some cars have multiple stamps on one side of the car?  ie. My car had two T stamps... (one down below the trim tab)..
If you don't know of a specific reason for the above, I'd appreciate your 'best guess'...?

Gary

Hey Gary my car had 2 Green "T" stamps on the drivers side and possibly a red "B". Those were the only remnants I found on my car. Not sure if the other letters faded away or wore off, of if that is all there ever was on the firewall. From what I am reading so far however it sounds like all cars got all of the stamps. Also note that some cars had both colour stamps on different letters, which seems to be a much rarer occurrence, that all one colour.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2013, 05:25:01 AM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

Mike

6q6qAll three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.
So does the green vs orange hold true if inspectors rotated on and off-shift independently and only cars which came through during shift change had the POSSIBILITY of having different color stamps?

Jon Mello

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2013, 04:32:27 PM »
Jon Mello had a picture of those brackets he took off his 67Z back in the day.

Chick, just to clarify, I did not take those spark plug shields and brackets off. They were from my green '67 Z that I bought right from the original owner. The car was a factory header and cowl plenum car and the headers were installed the first week he had the car. Everything that came off was kept and put away by him. The exhaust manifolds and the sections of exhaust pipe that were removed (that were the length of the headers) were absolutely pristine, as were the shields, etc. I had no doubt they came off the car when new.
Jon Mello
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BULLITT65

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2013, 02:57:06 AM »
good story, makes you want to give the seller an "atta boy" pat on the back. Also neat to get the items removed with the car. How many people would have the forethought? Not many I would think. Plus as Jon says definitely backs up the story

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2013, 04:34:28 PM »
I wonder, was there some order the stamping occurred?  Was the car inspected in a certain sequence?

Mike

6q6qAll three inspectors (Body, Paint and Trim Shop) were stationed at the end of the Fisher Trim Shop, just prior to the point where the body was shipped "through the wall" to Chevrolet; they worked independently.
So does the green vs orange hold true if inspectors rotated on and off-shift independently and only cars which came through during shift change had the POSSIBILITY of having different color stamps?

We'll probably never know, as things/people changed from day to day; those folks were "Final Buyoff" inspectors, the last people to look at the body after line repairmen and line inspectors had worked off any open items further back on the line. If a body didn't get a "B", "P", or "T", it didn't go up the hill to Chevrolet until it was repaired and bought-off.

Mark

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2013, 05:00:47 PM »
So about the only way you could get a set of multi colored stamps was if 1 or more of the inspectors was happy and put their stamp on, and the 2nd or 3rd rejected the car for his area.  Then the car had to be repaired for whatever caused it to be rejected and then got reinspected on another shift.  Say the Paint and Body inspections went well and got orang stamps, but a peice of trim was messed up, or incorrectly installed and got rejected.  The car got pulled aside and someone would have to come and fix whatever the issue was before the "T" guy could affix his stamp.  If the car was originally inspected near the end of a shift, it could be the next shift before the issue was resolved and the car reinspected and stuck back onto the line.  So now you end up with orange P, and B's, but a green T on your firewall.

I'm assuming they had to pull it off line at the final inspection point if it failed to get the issue resolved because there would probably be very little time to fix it between the inspection, and the body going thru the wall the Chevrolet.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

Mike S

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 05:06:59 PM »
 Thanks John. Mark, that's what I was leading to. My car had 2 orange stamps and I didn't see a 3rd. But back then I didn't realize green existed so I didn't look for any traces of it when documenting my car before restoration (more like resurrecting from the dead). Your explanation makes logical sense to me as to why some stamp combinations have orange and green.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2013, 04:31:43 PM »
I'm assuming they had to pull it off line at the final inspection point if it failed to get the issue resolved because there would probably be very little time to fix it between the inspection, and the body going thru the wall the Chevrolet.

That's correct - there was a "loop" at the end of the Trim conveyor near the Final Inspection point that could hold about 10 units; if an issue popped up at Final Inspection that couldn't be dealt with on-line in five minutes or so, the unit was shunted off onto the repair loop, repaired, re-inspected, and inserted back into the main delivery conveyor.

Mark

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2013, 05:52:24 PM »
Think of the manufacturing engineers that had to think up the design of a miles long continually moving assembly line.  Things like being able to pull something off the line, put it back on, designate the points along the line where it could happen, find the space in the building to do it in a small foot print, all the while not screwing up the series delivery of all the different sub assemlblies at all the different installation points along the way for all of the cars being built that day. 

This particular event took place right at the end of the line, so there wouldn't have been much coordination needed as it related to the repair as all the scheduled parts would all be on the tub at this point, and it hadn't been "logged" into Chevrolets side so none of the remaining parts would have been scheduled until after the VIN and prodcution sequence number was assigned. 

Say a seat had a big tear in it, and had to be replaced, and that was why it got rejected.  Where would they get the new one from and what would happen to the one that had to come out of the car?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:20:37 PM by Mark »

JohnZ

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2013, 04:13:51 PM »
Say a seat had a big tear in it, and had to be replaced, and that was why it got rejected.  Where would they get the new one from and what would happen to the one that had to come out of the car?

The unit would be held in the circulating repair loop until the Cushion Room could build a replacement seat (that would be faster than tearing down the damaged seat and re-trimming it); the new seat would be installed, and the unit would be shipped. The damaged seat would be taken to the Cushion Room, torn down, and re-scheduled.

68camaroz28

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2014, 01:37:26 PM »
Has anyone thought about the possibility of Fisher Body use a stenciling "INK" not paint.
Stencil Ink does not have the same consistency as traditional paints.
just a idea.

We use "Stenciling" INK to label Electrical Bussing and mark Naval circuit breakers for various hulls in the DoD side of ships repair all the time.

It does not cover very well and stamps crisp and fades with time, ,,,

Jim

Believe several of us have been saying that for a few years. Wish we would find out from someone who worked there.  It has never looked like a paint to me due to be so transparent and thin in thickness. 

I updated my build thread as I finally completed the "P", "D", & "T" stampings and what I used to complete. Came out very close to originals IMO. Inks I tried did not come close to originals so that changed my direction back to a type of paint. 

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584&page=47



69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2014, 10:55:53 AM »
Has anyone thought about the possibility of Fisher Body use a stenciling "INK" not paint.
Stencil Ink does not have the same consistency as traditional paints.
just a idea.

We use "Stenciling" INK to label Electrical Bussing and mark Naval circuit breakers for various hulls in the DoD side of ships repair all the time.

It does not cover very well and stamps crisp and fades with time, ,,,

Jim

Believe several of us have been saying that for a few years. Wish we would find out from someone who worked there.  It has never looked like a paint to me due to be so transparent and thin in thickness. 

I updated my build thread as I finally completed the "P", "D", & "T" stampings and what I used to complete. Came out very close to originals IMO. Inks I tried did not come close to originals so that changed my direction back to a type of paint. 

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584&page=47




Great looking Stamps Chick

NoYenko

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2014, 02:49:01 PM »
Chick I think you nailed it with the paint rather than ink. I have seen allot of variations in how the edge of the stamps vary due to the angle & pressure of the inspector. I think yours came out great. Here is a comparison I did to my original stamps. George

firstgenaddict

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2014, 07:17:56 AM »
Here are some results using High Pigment Permanent India Ink in a stamp pad. Hit the INKPAD  then hit the car quick.


69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2014, 08:45:56 AM »
Here are some results using High Pigment Permanent India Ink in a stamp pad. Hit the INKPAD  then hit the car quick.



Hey James where did you get the stamps. They look different than the ones I have. I like the ones you have better.

firstgenaddict

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2014, 06:00:10 AM »
They were purchased from ricks years ago...

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2014, 06:30:06 AM »
They were purchased from ricks years ago...


Thanks James I ordered some stamps from HBC and they look just like the ones you and Chick used.

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2014, 09:44:45 PM »
Worth noting for the PTB discussion, that JohnZ's Assembly Process article describes the inspection marks as "ink stamps".
(My apologies if this has already been noted elsewhere in this thread, but I didn't spot it if it is).
Tim - 04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP

69Z28freak

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2014, 11:10:45 PM »
Worth noting for the PTB discussion, that JohnZ's Assembly Process article describes the inspection marks as "ink stamps".
(My apologies if this has already been noted elsewhere in this thread, but I didn't spot it if it is).

That is correct Tim as Chick pointed out. I am going to try the same method Chick used as his stamps looked great IMO.

firstgenaddict

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Re: 69 Z28 Engine Bay Pic's
« Reply #118 on: May 21, 2014, 05:51:51 PM »
Here are the ones I just did on the 12C X66 convertible I am painting and detailing. (I used Grass Green Permanent India Ink and an ink pad.)

Note that the light color is not entirely Cortez silver, it is the grey primer, there is only a faint hint of silver mist.
The cowl tag is the original finish and was taped up during the refinishing.







Other than a poorly masked color change this car was very original and had been sitting in Floyd Garrets museum for years.