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16  Model Specific Discussions / Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Muncie M22 spec on: April 16, 2015, 10:57:57 PM
There's a fella who posts on Team Camaro who represents himself as a Muncie technician/repair expert I think..   I suggest you post over there if you don't get an answer here.  (Have you checked the '69 Overhaul Manual?)..
17  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 Z28 Crankshaft number on: April 16, 2015, 05:38:13 PM
Jerry said it is possible, but when asked at that time we did not know the engine assembly date. I asked him again.

I don't really know.  I would say quite possible in a September assembly, but more doubtful by early October. 

Pistons are standard?  Bearings look original?

If I recall correctly, if an original assembly, the bearings should also be GM bearings, and would have GM part numbers on the backs...   If someone were replacing the crankshaft (for whatever reason), they would not likely use GM bearings...
18  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 16, 2015, 10:35:05 AM
I also agree that things got done outside the cookie cutter mold by the factory, And even experts were not there to witness "mistakes" like the stickers, or other abnormalities. Having a large sample size is always going to help, but doesn't provide insight to a guy who has a unrestored car, that doesn't fit.

I just hope these guys with the abnormalities don't get worried and trust the so called experts and change how there car came from the factory, just to fit in and be called "correct" by some judge at a show. Smiley

Examples ...like the owners of late '69 Z28s with dripper valve covers, who read the books and learn that '69s didn't have drippers..  so they buy an old crusty set they find without drippers and send to JM or someone to 'make like new' so their car will be 'correct'...?   I've found MANY late Z28's and 350/350 corvette owners whose original cars' valve covers had drippers!!   and Bryon is documenting the changes to the differential housings for these late cars (with the extra 'C' in front of the stamped code - which was a 1970 thing)...  I'm sure there are many other examples that don't conform to the 'accepted' norm... but which are *correct from the factory*...
19  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 Z28 Crankshaft number on: April 16, 2015, 09:00:10 AM
If I understand the change, and the reason correctly, then the crankshaft keyway itself is likely NOT different from '68 to '69, but instead the timing MARK on the damper, along with the position of the Timing Index (on the timing cover) are rotated slightly (10 deg or so) in order to be more visible and easier to see/adjust the timing.   If I'm not understanding this correctly even now, someone PLEASE correct me explicity ..  Smiley  If that is correct, then it would be the damper and the timing cover that 'go together'.. with the crank keyway position being consistent over the years.

I'm glad you brought this up about timing, it has the  69 style ,#7708 Balancer and timing cover setup, w/offset timing mark, so, is the crank  keyway  the same from 68 to 69 crankshaft, if so then timing will be correct with these parts.
I may need to call Jerry M. to be sure.
[/quote]

Confirmation never hurts, you could certainly confirm the statement from his book saying that the '68 and '69 crankshafts were the same, AND ask him if he's ever heard of an early '69 Z28 with a '68 crankshaft in it (and find out if Jerry M thinks there would be any issues with this).
.. and bottom line, IF you believe the crankshaft *might* have been installed in the factory, and absent any indicators that indicated the engine had been apart or rebuilt over the years, I would NOT change the crankshaft to a '69 pn...   Smiley
20  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 16, 2015, 08:54:13 AM
How about another curve ball thrown in...

This may be reaching but I see it entirely possible (this happened alot with fan caution decals in the Ford camp when cars came in for service)   Since alot of these cars didn't sell right away, alot were sent back or distributed around the country at various dealerships....Isn't it entirely possible that those dealers, or even Gibbs himself saw fit to run over to the parts department and stick "427 decals on themselves when the cars were only days or weeks old??

I mean, without the decal, and no identification on the outside of the car, I'm sure there were alot of people back then that didn't know what they were looking at, and could have easily mistaken the cars for 396's that cost $7,000.   Since they were a hard sale I could see dealers doing things to push these cars out the door.  The iron block COPO's had air cleaner decals.....so could it be possible that dealers thought,,,,hey why not??

Just a thought, and speculation on my part, but a possibility.  Either way I certainly wouldn't kick it out of the garage just because of a $6 decal.  Just buy another lid and switch it back and forth.  If you can afford the car, you can afford another air cleaner lid  Grin

What I do like about this hobby is that there are still original unrestored cars out there that show things weren't always cut in stone, and some people aren't afraid to restore a car that doesn't follow what is widely accepted as correct.  William has posted enough information to suggest that sticker or no sticker is entirely possible.   What pains me are restorations that are done on original cars, and things are changed just because that's what is accepted in the main stream or due to peer pressure with judges and the like.   I have an unrestored car here that has a few oddities about it, but are viewed as entirely possible by other "supposed" experts that have seen the car.  So I don't necessarily see this decal issue as incorrect.

You're absolutely correct...  There ARE differences from the factory (from 'commonly accepted and written' absolutes).. and then, just as now, dealers DO make changes to the cars in their inventory to make them more 'saleable'.  There are *many* differences in late '69 delivered Z28 (and probably other Camaros as well)... which originated in the factory(s)...
21  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: First 2015 COPO Camaro being auctioned on: April 15, 2015, 09:46:25 PM
Those cars must be a 'post production' process in a separate facility than normal Camaro production?   Do they get a 'body in white' minus drivetrain (and hood?) from Camaro production?
22  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 Z28 Crankshaft number on: April 15, 2015, 09:44:36 PM
I was thinking that the 'tufftriding' for '1969 might be the difference in the crankshafts...  Was the '68 PN tufftrided??
23  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 Z28 Crankshaft number on: April 15, 2015, 03:21:52 PM
I had to go back to a prior thread .. attached here...  to recall the specifics.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10520.0

If I understand the change, and the reason correctly, then the crankshaft keyway itself is likely NOT different from '68 to '69, but instead the timing MARK on the damper, along with the position of the Timing Index (on the timing cover) are rotated slightly (10 deg or so) in order to be more visible and easier to see/adjust the timing.   If I'm not understanding this correctly even now, someone PLEASE correct me explicity ..  Smiley  If that is correct, then it would be the damper and the timing cover that 'go together'.. with the crank keyway position being consistent over the years.
24  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: Cadmium vs. Zinc Plating on: April 15, 2015, 02:23:38 PM
There IS a great explanatory article by John Z on the brake components in the CRG Reports section...

http://www.camaros.org/brakevalve.shtml

It has pictures, so even I can understand it..  Smiley
25  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 15, 2015, 02:19:24 PM
Jeez,
At least put the air cleaner seal on right! AND, not suppost to have the 427 sticker on the lid. A high dollar car like this should be totally correct. JMHO.

Yes, that perturbed me as well....  Based on the $$$ they are expecting for that car, they should be willing to pay $500 for someone to 'correctly' install the A/C seal..  Smiley    and another $500 to remove the unnecessary decal.. Smiley
26  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: First 2015 COPO Camaro being auctioned on: April 15, 2015, 01:35:07 PM
What's the factory warranty on those?   100 runs?  or 25 miles?  whichever comes first?  Smiley
27  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 Z28 Crankshaft number on: April 15, 2015, 01:02:07 PM
What balancer is on it?? 1968 or 1969? Balancer date?  How did they set timing?

THAT is a great question....   Smiley
28  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Happy B-Day James! (FirstGenAddict) on: April 15, 2015, 09:58:37 AM
Thank you for all the birthday wishes, it has been better than I deserve... Wink

I went to the Master's on Friday and played with cars the rest of the time!

Sounds like you had a helluva birthday weekend James!!   Smiley
29  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: First 2015 COPO Camaro being auctioned on: April 15, 2015, 09:56:29 AM
And.. a  'real racer' could probably buy a $5000 Mustang, and with another 10-15K build a drag car that would stomp it....

I don't know where GM gets it's marketing people....   maybe from kindergarten classes??

Well I would say just the opposite, their "race" cars are based off factory models. GM is making a few mods and giving customer a few options for drive train in the COPO and then marking it up considerably because of the COPO name and what it famously has represented. So seems like a good business model to me.
Now if they were making the car from scratch and there was a ton of R & D involved and they were losing money I would agree with you.

You sighted buying a mustang, (which I am guessing you meant street car), but Ford also offers a Cobra drag car that is not street legal, and Dodge also offers a Challenger drag only car, for its followers who want to cough up the dough.

Well, thank you Austin..   that was all 'news' to me....  shows how little I pay attention to the advertising they do... Smiley     Do you know if ANY of those 'factory drag cars' have ever won a race??  Smiley
30  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: First 2015 COPO Camaro being auctioned on: April 15, 2015, 09:18:25 AM
AND..  if you want a real 'hot rodder built' Camaro drag car.... 153 mph after a quarter in 8.81...  Here's one for 1/4 to 1/3 the $$$ that a friend sent me an email about this morning... Smiley   - an upgrade to the 'old Mustang drag car' that I referenced earlier... Smiley  Will that 2015 GM factory built drag car run anything close to that???
The owner might even apply the 'C O P O ' letters to the car for a sale.. Smiley
 
1982 Chevy Camaro Drag Race Car, turn key ready to race $35,000-or best reasonable serious offer, must sell, really a great deal at this price, you can't build a car like this for this price. Must see!!!!! Car was built by Ed Quay race cars. NHRA & IHRA certified chassis, Super stock class = SS/AM & SS/AS or other classes. Car works very well. Car includes: 394 ci Rocket small block, 865 hp, ET= 8.81 @ 153.20 mph - 1/4 mile, 3 IHRA ET Records. Car weight=3180# With driver. Steve Taylor PRC Carb, External wet sump system, Splayed valve heads, Jessel valve trane,Titanium valves, 3spd Pro Flite Transmission, PPP shifter w/air shift, Strange Alum. rear center section, 5:86 Pro gears, adj Koni coil over rear shocks, Koni frt. shocks, 2) 16v batteries, Auto Meter Gages & Tach, Airomotive Fuel Pump, Wil Wood Brakes, Kromer Custom Headers, Moroso Vac Pump, MSD Ing. system, Safety Chute & much-much-much-more to mention.  
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