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16  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 19, 2014, 07:29:59 PM
Notice how every single one of the NCRS official build dates for these cars is 8/10/66.  Wonder what's up with that, and the 05B, 09B cowl tag dates observed to date?  I'm also wondering how they are turning the Fisher DD body number into a corresponding VIN number, as there are only 4 of them known, and only 1 lines up DD number to VIN number so far, and that number N100001.
17  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 17, 2014, 10:38:01 PM
They are all hand built made between 5/21 and 6/17/66, if the production data is accurate Fisher delivered them in batches of 2 to as many as 5 on any one day to Norwood, where they would be finished off and then sent to their final destination.  Some remained at the plant, documentation says 12 were to be delivered to "manufacturing".  Maybe all 12 of those remained at Norwood for testing, maybe some of them went to some other manufacturing location, whatever locations that would be part of the manufacturing organization that wasn't either Norwood or LOS.  The last tubs were delivered on 6/16 from Plant no. 21, and the latest date that they were required at their final destination (proving ground, sales, tech centers, etc.) was noted as 8/1/66. giving the assembly plants about 4 or 5 weeks to work the bugs out and get them ready to go.

17 of them were sent to the proving grounds, only 1 (DD64) was noted as being sent to Chevrolet Norwood, 1 (DD63) was sent to Chevrolet Los Angeles, 3 DD29, DD54, and DD58, went to Janesville (figure that one out) all delivered to Janesville on 8/8.  A bunch (11) went to the Flint manufacturing, 2 went to Oshawa Canada, another couple went to Atlanta, and the rest seem to be distributed amongst the various tech centers and engineering groups.  So if any remained at Norwood for pre production testing after the intiail buildout was complete  it would seem like it was only DD64.
18  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 17, 2014, 07:20:12 PM
In this case, plant 21 built the part of the car that Fisher Norwood would make during production and then trucked, or shipped them by rail to Norwood, where they ended up in the Pilot assembly area.  They never entered the actual Norwood assembly plant (near as I can tell) as they were still churning out 66 model year cars (and trucks?).  So why would they have NOR tags on them.  the 67/68 versions don't have all that certification mumbo jumbo that the 69's do so it probably wasn't a DOT requirement.
19  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 17, 2014, 12:56:14 PM
Would it be likely that the "tubs" arrived at the Norwood (or LOS) plants with Fisher body tags (cowl tags) already on the firewall (ie made up at Fisher plant 21) or would any tag that presently exist on these car have to be attached at Norwood (or LOS) when they arrived?  

Since they were not scheduled by GM for assembly at Norwood (or LOS) and they were being essentially hand built in plant 21 in detroit, would they even have needed tags made up prior to assembly, and  if they did require a tag, would the pilot line at plant 21 attach a tag from Norwood (or LOS) to these tubs.  The 4 cars we know about all have cowl tags on them (with at least 2 different date codes on them - 05B, and 09B), how and when did these get placed on the cars?
20  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Interesting Craigslist Finds on: December 16, 2014, 09:22:24 PM
Thought I would start a thread where we can post interesting items relating to 67 to 69 Camaros, that we are not going to try and buy ourselves.  Lets limit to 67-69 Camaros and parts for them.  Don't list stuff you are trying to sell yourself, just things that you have found surfing the web.

I'll start it off with a 69 Rolling Body in Pittsfield MA for $5500.  Looks like it was a basic 327/TH350 car, looks like 124379N545473, and an 11C build was Daytona Yellow, with a black standard interior.

21  Orphans - documentation or VIN-stamped drivetrains - in search of the original cars / 1969 - Orphans / Re: 9Nxxx007, 69 DZ 302 shortblock on: December 15, 2014, 06:45:55 PM
How would someone prove they own a car that the vin ends in 007, must only be several thousand of them in that time frame, would have been better off with the front half  or front 4 of the vin.  
22  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 14, 2014, 09:03:18 AM
I think that's a tag on the back of a trim panel, maybe the panel below the 1/4 window above the seat.  Looks like a cardboard/fiberboard background.  There was 2 plants in Grand Rapids, one was a metal stamping plant at 300 36th street in the suburb or Wyoming MI, (plant 1) and a second Fisher plant (#2) at 6030 Vorheis Ave In Grand Rapids.  Plant 1 was something like 2 million sq ft in size, and the No. 2 plant was about 1/4 of that size.  Both had access to rail lines running across the property.  GM plant 1 is demolished, plant 2 is still there, but has several new tenants in it, not related to GM any longer.
23  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 13, 2014, 04:29:53 PM
Yes I have seen the entire document but between GMs possible copyright (if there is any in effect) I can't say if it will end up on the web somewhere in its entirety.  But heres an image of a single page of it. This is the car that was just dug out of a Garage in PA about 2 weeks ago, and now apparently belongs to the same guy that owns N100001.

And that is the question, what rolled out of Fisher Body #21, a partially built Tub from the firewall back like Fisher would provide to GM thru the "hole in the wall", or a completely trimmed out finished assembly.  From John's description it sounds like finished Tubs including paint and interior, to which GM would attach the running gear and whatever options were necessary.  Then they were sent off to their final destinations, and possibly a few remained at Norwood (and probably all of the LOS delivered ones) so they could be played with in their pilot building so the assembly processes, and the components themselves  could be fine tuned for when actual production began. 

Now, when did they get the NOR (orLOS) cowl tags attached, at the pilot plant, at Fisher Norwood before going to Chevy, or at some later point when they were sold.  I'm going to assume they got them at the assembly plant just before turn over to GM. but we don't know that all of them got tags, as only 4 of them have been found, and 2 have 05B dated tags, and 2 have 09B tags.
24  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 13, 2014, 12:07:32 PM
The individual panels had to be stamped in one of the sheetmetal plants, GM wasn't ferrari, beating fenders into shape on tree trunks (Seen the pictures).

Did the Flint pilot line actually build production level vehicles, or were they one off hand built assemblies that were used to create the stampings that were then used to build the later pilots that were run down the assembly line at NOR and LOS in May of 66?

I guess the question should be did the 49 pilots we are trying to discuss here ever go to the Flint pilot line and get partly assembled, then to NOR and/or LOS to be finished, essentially jumping into the line somewhere.  Or did they arrive in individual parts (floor pans, seat supports, fenders, inner fendwells etc) and get welded up just like they did during normal production when that started in late August/Early September.

Norwood was building Chevy IIs and passenger cars (I'm guessing Impalas, Chevrolets) in 66, so could they support a full build of 49 Camaro bodies from the floor pan up (mostly in body welding processes, I'm sure they could paint and install the trim), or did they get a head start in the assembly from somewhere else?
25  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 13, 2014, 10:20:44 AM
So what was the product out of the Flint Pilot line?  I'm guessing this is where the clay and wood mockups and models became one or more hand assembled steel "cars".

Where did the parts that the assembly plants got to run down the line come from, or did they get some kind of partial assembly from the flint pilot plant?
26  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / 67 Camaro Pilot Line Assembly Process and Procedures on: December 12, 2014, 07:58:19 PM
I started this thread over at, but though I would get a more even keeled discussion here.  I'm not interested in any one particular car, I'm only interested in the process.  How did pilot cars go from a pile of sheetmetal to a finished vehicle.  Any discussion even about how and where other lines of the same time period were built is helpfull to the discussion.

GM says that there were 49 "F" Cars built at or for the Norwood Plant, and 3 at or for the LOS plant in late May early June of 66 by Fisher for GM. GM documetation says that there were, 27 cars for sales, 17 for engineering, and 12 for manufacturing, and 3 misc (?)cars scheduled. (note that this adds up to 57 pilot cars - more than is accounted for in their build totals (the sheets with tag numbers and option lists).

33 of them had show paint applied, one (no. 6) was shipped in primer to engineering. Drivetrains varied from 6 cylinders, 283's, 327's and 350s and a mixture of power glides and manual transmissions, and there was a mixture of convertibles and coupes.

The following dates relate to the cars and their introduction to the public.

Fisher builds car bodies from 5/21/66 (earliest promised delivery) to 6/6/66 (latest promised delivery) at which time they were delivered to GM.

Pete Estes announces the Camaro name in a 14 city closed circuit televised conference on June 29 1966, cars had no name up to that point and thus no emblems or name plates.

Chevrolet holds a sales conference in Detroit 8/22-8/23/66. Where at least one Camaro and possibly others were presented to the Chevrolet Sales people.

Major advertising campaign occurs at the Proving grounds 9/28-9/29/66 with 25 Camaros present and 100 members of the press invited to drive the Camaros. Probably can assume that these are mostly the 27 cars noted in the assembly documents that say they were destined for the sales organization, probably most of them with show paint.

Camaro released to the public 9/29/66.

We know of at least 3 and possibly 4 Pilot cars that still exist, VIN N100001, with NOR body number 860. Body numbers NOR 10 NOR 13, and NOR 31. NOR 10 and 13 have 05B Norwood Build Dates, NOR 1 and 31 have 09B dated tags.

OK lets start with the where.

Where were these cars actually assembled for "delivery to GM", and what does delivery to GM mean. If the cars were practially hand built at the small pilot assembly line at the Norwood (and/or LOS) plants, wouldn't they already be in GMs hands? Norwood (and LOS) was in full spring production mode on the plant internal assembly lines, so its not even conceivable (at least to me) that they would assemble pilot bodies on the main interior line, with no tooling, parts or anything else needed to built these cars.

What was the capabilities of the pilot assembly line at Norwood? Could they weld a complete body tub together from loose stamped panels? I would assume they could paint the bodies, and assemble them onto chassis' and install drive trains.

Lets leave it at getting a Camaro body assembled painted, etc and delivered to GM, then we can move on to where the cars went from there. Comments, other questions, answers?
27  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Help me with this cowl tag on: October 16, 2014, 02:54:35 PM
Thats a 68 Muncie assembly date so its not original to the car.  At best it was originally a small block RS/SS, but it could also have been an L14 307 or L65 350 equipped Camaro with style trim (chrome molding package essentally) or RS package.  Its not now and never was a Z28.
28  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: AM Radio on: September 26, 2014, 03:02:50 PM
Only difference between a 71 and a 69 radio is that the radio dial lamp on the 71 is wired directly to the dash lamp circuit, so that the dial is lit (and can be dimmed) by the dash light switch and is only lit when the dash lights are on, while the 69's are wired off the 12V power supply and is lit when the radio is on, and not lit when the radio is off wheather the dash lights are on or not.  That and the different shape of the heat sink on the rear of the AM/FM radios, square in 71, angled in 69.  It will still fit.
29  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Better remember this cowl tag Number on: September 22, 2014, 01:46:16 PM
So he's sellinga tag to  an 09D LOS built car with cowl air cleaner and heater delete, power glide transmission and a console.  Cowl air cleaner wasn't avialable in 09D (and was only available on the Z28 shipped in the trunk - wouldn't have shown up on a tag), and since this this certainly didn't come off of a Z28, since there were no Z28's till December of 66.  At best he's got an SS with a heater delete option, at worst he's got a fake tag.  I'm leaning towards the latter option.
30  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: FOUND: The Actual 1969 Camaro RS/SS Conv. NASCAR Pace Car for Bristol in 1969! on: September 19, 2014, 06:18:16 PM
convertibles took more time on the Fisher side of the plant.  Typical spacing for convertibles is in the 12 to 15 body range.  Vinyl top cars are in the 6 to 8 car range.  I had a buddy at work who working in a Pontiac assembly plant and he sai they could install a convertible top in about 15 minutes.  They worked in groups that travelled with the body for those 15 minutes and then went back to the beginning of the trim shop to pick up the next top.  There was usually 2 groups operating at one time.

If you placed an order for 10 identical Convertibles and the orders were all accepted and processed together they could have sequential body numbers, but the vins would be spaced out by a minimum of 12 numbers because Fisher would have spaced them out to even their work load and they would arrived at GMs side of the plant still spaced apart when the VINs were assigned.  People who say they've seen groups of convertibles going down the line one after the other on the Fisher side of the plant are smoking something funny.
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