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Messages - Charley

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Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars
« on: February 28, 2007, 04:47:37 AM »
Jeff you are splitting hairs on delivery as a L78. The Pace cars left the plant-assembly lines as L78's. There is a protecto-plate for mine as a L78. They were released from production as L78's. They then went to engineering and were converted to L35's. I stated in a earlier post that the Grumpy car might have been the first L78 built to be sold to the public. I don't need to admit they were L35's, I never denied they were. Chevrolet built and delivered a L78. Chevrolet engineering converted them to L35's.

 As for the Grumpy car being what put these cars on the map I guess that could be true if you were a drag racer or read Hot Rod magazine but the bulk of the population were not drag racers and did not read hot rod magazines. I can appreciate your view Jerry but I also have to consider that you are a die hard drag racer and it really would seem that way to you.  I don't doubt that many of the L78 Camaros were ordered after seeing Grumpy run. There was a whole country that also watched the Indy 500. When I was a kid, the Indy 500 was a huge deal. I never paid attention to Pace cars but I know the 500 was big. The Camaro was big and it was Chevrolets answer to the Mustang. I think the Camaro was big without Grumpy and without The Pace car or the Indy 500.

Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars
« on: February 28, 2007, 03:09:34 AM »
It is very clear that the two Pace cars made it out of production as L78's also. The fact that they were later converted at engineering to L35's proves your above statement wrong.

Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars
« on: February 28, 2007, 02:25:40 AM »
They did not change their mind. It was all called out in the above posted work order. It is obvious from the paperwork  they ever intended for a L78 to Pace the race. The same paperwork calls for them to be built as L78 cars and they were. They were then converted to L35. No documents have surfaced that I know of that ever say they intended for  the Pace car to be a L78. Nothing that was at the track has anything to do with how the two actual Pace cars were built when they left the assembly line as L78's. The supposed # 3 Pace car having a L78 and a 4K trim tag would indicate to me that it was never intended to be a backup Pace car.

Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars
« on: February 28, 2007, 02:01:43 AM »
    "Chevrolet NEVER intended for that car to be a L78. NEVER."

   Read the above posted GM documents. They called out for it in the GM work order for it to be built as a L78 car and it was. Just because the work order then calls for it to be converted  to a L35 it still started out and was built as a L78.

  "The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period"  My car is a 4P car as is Grumpys car. Now are yoiu going to say Grumpys car is not a L78 because it has a 4P trim tag like my car ? I have no facts concerning a 3rd Pace car and never stated I did. A L78  Pace car driving around the track has nothing to do with my car and the # 2 car being built as L78's.

Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars
« on: February 28, 2007, 01:01:38 AM »
Per Al Young...Vince Piggins told him a 3rd Pace car was never built. You may have found a L78 Pace car but not one that was prepped to pace the race.

  "Many years ago when Dan Young discovered that the #3 car had been found still intactů.
That is the time he decided to sell his "
   That is just silly and just posted to tell tall tales. When I met Al Young they had sold the dealership and Dan had retired to Florida. Al was storing the car and they no longer needed it. Your audacity to tell a lie that Dan Young decided to sell the Pace car because a 3rd Pace car had been found should be offensive to everyone. Do you think that if a backup Pace car had been found it has any effect on the car that actually paced the race ? There are many pics of the Dan Young car pacing the race. There are none of your mystical car pacing the race so why would that make Dan Young  want to sell his car ? GM engineering converted the car into the L35, not the assembly line. The assembly line built it and shipped it with a L78.

  "Maybe it was delivered with no drivetrain ? " Does anyone reading this thread that has seen the paperwork really believe this statement is anything more than someone trying to spread mis-information ?

[Response to other removed content removed by Rich...]

Originality / 67 Pace cars
« on: February 27, 2007, 10:20:35 PM »
[Content removed by Rich...]

Jeff says the 2 Pace cars did not leave the factory with L78's so they are not L78's. They were built as L78's and I have the GM work order calling for them to be built as L78's. The work order then called for them to be deliverd to Chevrolet's engineering department. Then it calls for them to change the powertrain combination from "as delivered status" to RPO L35-M40.
  The above GM statement should settle any outlandish debate as to how they were delivered. They were delivered as L78-4 speeds. That was the "as delivered status". It was delivered to the engineering department as a L78.  The protecto-plate for my Pace car is for a L78 4 speed. Where Jeff tries to draw the line as to what the car was built as is simply to try to lessen what the car is because he has a problem with me. He also states there were 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars. Really ? Is there any fact to this or is he just making stuff up ? Does CRG have any info on these 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars ? If anyone thinks Jeff has made his posts because he really believes they were not L78 cars I would sure like to hear it.
 In regards to the discussion as to Grumpys car being the first L78 I will still assume the Pace cars were first based on the build date on the trim tags being a week earlier and the vins being about 2400 cars earlier.
  It would be nice to hear the CRG opinion or other members opinions.

Originality / Re: 1967 396
« on: February 25, 2007, 10:38:25 PM »
 You are stating the obvious. I have no idea why Chevrolet built 375 hp Pace cars but I know they did.  All data I have so far indicates the Pace cars were built before Grumpys car. I'm just trying to figure this out but you seem to want to keep your info secret. We all know Grumpy was a important guy but we also know that Chevrolet was already building and using high hp big blocks in other models. I also have no doubt that Grumpy was working with Chevrolet on stuff but your statement that there would be no 375HP Camaro without Grumpy is just plain stupid. Do you think really think that even though Chevrolet had a low hp 396 in a Camaro they would never put a high hp 396 in it without Grumpy ? Amazing.
  I won't mind if it is proven that Grumpys car was a earlier built L78 but it would be nice to have facts and not just drag racing history.

Decoding/Numbers / Re: X11 z/28 on ebay??
« on: February 24, 2007, 09:33:54 PM »
Reserve is not met so assume it is a shill bid of 100K . He does not say Jerry looked at it. He says Jerry certified one other X11 car.  Nice rear bumper guards.

Originality / Re: 1967 396
« on: February 23, 2007, 07:21:42 PM »
   So far I have my car as a 03C car and Grumpys car as a 03D car. I also have my vin being about 2400 cars earlier. I don't have Grumpys body # to compare but I would assume that a 2400 car spread in the vin and 03C versus 03D would put my car earlier. I also would assume that GM doing their Pace car program would have more importance to them than getting a car to a outside drag racer.  It might be that my Pace car and the backup Pace car were the first built L78's  but the Grumpy car was the first built to be sold to the public.
   I also have a very hard time believing that Vince Piggins and Chevrolet couldn't come up with a 375 hp Camaro if ut were not for Grumpy. I don't want to discount any of Grumpys accomplishments but the statement that Chevrolet would never have done a 375 hp Camaro if not for Grumpy is very hard to swallow.

Originality / Re: 1967 396
« on: February 23, 2007, 05:43:55 AM »
What is the vin on Grumpys car ? I made my statement based on KurtS saying my Pace Car was built before Grumpys car. Until he told me that I had never paid any attention to just how early my car was. If I'm incorrect in my statement I would like to get it cleared up.

Originality / Re: 1967 396
« on: February 21, 2007, 02:57:00 PM »
My pace car is a 03C car and I think Grumpys car was about a month later.

General Discussion / Re: Vinyl or Not?
« on: February 20, 2007, 03:54:09 AM »
Here is my green L89 with a green vinyl top...

The Lincoln Mark VIII fan is the best I have ever used. I have two in cars now. There are other sources for the fan but I found this one on Ebay and posted the link. They move about 4500 CFM. This fan with virtually any big block rtadiator and you should be fine.

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