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16  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Sound bites of stock '69 Z28 exhaust systems on: April 24, 2012, 07:56:14 PM
I copied over some links from a different but related discussion about chambered exhaust. 

Reference to the original discussion: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9380.0

Below are two links to two YouTube sound bites of exhaust systems on the 1969 Z28s for reference and help in choosing an exhaust system for your '69 Camaro.  This first link is from CRG member jmcbeth's completely stock '69 Z28 (…and very nicely restored Z28 I should add…) with the Gardner's transverse muffler system including the resonators.

Jmcbeth’s YouTube Link: http://youtu.be/8PMF8311ACA

This is the sound bite of my "relatively" stock '69 Z28 302 but recently upgraded during the motor rebuild with Comp Cam's solid roller cam kit 12-770-8, springs, lifters, push rods, cam button, and #1804-16, 1.5 ratio Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rocker Arms.  Initial timing set at 12 deg. BTDC, idle speed set between 900 - 950 RPM.  Results: Very responsive and reliable power from 2200 to 6200 RPM.  The sound bite is through the stock exhaust manifolds and exhaust system with the transverse muffler, without resonators.  This solid lifter cam was selected to be relatively close in sound characteristics to the stock 30-30 cam, yet more usable power lower in the RPM range.  You will notice it has a bit more crackle in the sound note.

My YouTube Link: http://youtu.be/bSGjLtTmmls

If some else has Gardner Exhaust’s chambered system on a stock '69 Z28, please post a similar sound bite.  This will provide an interesting side-by-side comparison with jmcbeth's stock transverse muffler system with resonators.

Thanks and enjoy the music!

Dave
17  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z on: April 24, 2012, 07:25:12 PM
jmcbeth,

I finally was able to take and edit a sound bite of my '69 Z28 with stock exhaust w/o resonators.  My 302 is "relatively" stock but as I mentioned earlier in this discuss thread, I decided to upgrade the valve train to a full roller cam and roller rockers from Comp Cams as I had specified. 

I just posted the sound bite on You Tube: http://youtu.be/bSGjLtTmmls

I'll submit another post on CRG titled "Stock 1969 Z28 Sound Bites" with links to both our sound bite so it will be easier to find in the future.  If some else has Gardner Exhaust’s chambered system on a stock '69 Z28, please post a similar sound bite.  This will provide an interesting side-by-side comparison with jmcbeth's stock transverse muffler system with resonators.

Thanks!

Dave
18  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 69 Z28 Brake Booster Question on: April 06, 2012, 09:40:30 PM
69camarox33,

JohnZ and tmodel66 are correct.  As long as your brake booster precedes your build date, by a reasonable about, you probably have the correct unit.  I have a "05A" or first week of May Norwood built '69Z.  It still has its original "9204" stamped power brake booster date coded "108", or the 108th day of 1969 which was April 18th, which was only about two weeks before the trim tag car assembly date.

If you have the '69 Camaro Assembly Instruction Manual (AIM…a must have if you're restoring your car), page 260 covering the J52 Front Disc Brakes and Power Brake Cylinder Balance Valve & Brake Pipes show the booster and master cylinder as GM #5468165 Cylinder Asm.  This assembly was built and date coded by Delco Moraine when the subassembly was built at the component plant prior shipment to the Camaro assembly plants.  With a few exceptions, this was the situation on many of the subassemblies the GM component plants sent to the assembly plants. CRG has many great tech articles on the date code topic and the assembly process.

Hope this helps and good luck on your project!
19  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z on: April 03, 2012, 11:07:53 AM
jmcbeth,

I had planned to do that, and I will try to get this done this weekend or very soon.  I have several sound clips but I did them solo and you see me walk from behind the camera to start and idle the car, pull into the garage, shut off the engine and then walk back to the camera to shut it off.  I am not able to edit the sound clip and I need to get an assistant to help as you did.

Prior to rebuilding my engine, I searched and searched but could not find a sound clip of a Camaro Z28 302 with this cam.  Your "stock" set-up and my "modified - stock" set-up will provide a unique side-by-side comparison!

Regards,

Dave 
20  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z on: April 02, 2012, 08:13:16 PM
jmbeth,

Thank you for posting the pictures of your exhaust system and YouTube sound clip.  Your car looks and sounds great!  This is the first time I have heard a ’69 Z28 with stock exhaust and resonators.

I just played your YouTube sound clip side-by-side with my system and they are very similar.  Your system with the resonators is a bit quieter than mine without resonators, but not by much.  If we were to run our cars side-by-side, I am sure the tone would be more noticeable.

My idle characteristic is slightly different due to my recent motor rebuild and cam selection.  My car is not a numbers matching Z28, and has a replacement "DZ" engine, so I decided to update the valve train to a full mechanical roller Comp Cams #12-770-8, "XR274R.  The cam's 110 deg lobe separation, lift, and the intake and exhaust duration allow for very nice and usable RPM range of 2200 - 6200.  I am very happy with the power this cam provides and it is very drivable.  My goal was to retain the stock mechanical lifter sound, and keep the stock valve covers, so the engine look and sounds very stock. 

Again...great job with your car!

Dave
21  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z on: March 31, 2012, 11:46:00 AM
Steve,

Your story is interesting.  The pervious owner of my '69 Z28 purchased the car in his home state of Connecticut in 1989.  He has lived in Indianapolis for many years where I live.  I purchased the Camaro from him in 1995 and started the restoration, which at that time, the car only had 44,851 miles.  The 1989 emission decal from Connecticut was in the front windshield with a "FAIL SEP 18 89" stamp.  The car had headers and an aftermarket exhaust system, and the carb was jetted rich.  So, now wonder it failed the emission check! For fun, I attached a picture of this decal. The document in the background was my title search and attempts to fine the owner history which came back “No record of ownership exists for the follow described motor vehicle..."

During the late 1990s, I attended the Camaro Nationals in Pigeon Forge, TN to look at well restored cars, and studied two ’69 SS Camaros side-by-side.  One was a survivor with its original GM chambered system and the other car with a repro system.  The difference in sound between these chambered systems was remarkable.  The repro system sound much more poppy and did not have the same deep tone as the original system.  The original system obviously has many years and miles on which may have been a factor.  Gardner’s system should be a good system and should sound very close to an original GM system.  So anyone wishing to purchase a chambered system, I highly recommend the system from Gardner versus a cheaper alternative system.

Back to the resonators: at the time I resorted my car, Gardner Exhaust was either not in business or not well known.  I purchased my complete transverse muffler exhaust system (again, my car is a 05A car) from the former Rick's First Gen. It was a nice system but does not compare to the Gardner systems available today.  I searched for a long time for resonators but none were available, so I had to install the resonator by-pass pipes.

A year ago, I contacted Gardner to ask about purchasing resonators but they only sell complete systems.  Heartbeat City Camaro Parts currently has a set of NOS resonators, G/M #3909959, for $1,750.  Here is link to the website and item: http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/22785/Camaro-NOS-Exhaust-resonators-3909959-69/.  If my car was a #s matching rare car that was never driven, this might be a good investment.  I attempted to verify the #3909959 part number but the ’69 assembly manual shows them in the illustration, but does not call out the resonator part numbers on page 388, for the dual exhaust N10 option.

Jmcbeth,

I look forward to seeing pictures of your exhaust system and hopefully some details shots of your resonators.  I have several sound bites of my car’s exhaust sound w/o the resonators and would like to hear yours with the resonators in a side-by-side comparison.  Gardner’s website provides a number of sound bites, but I am not sure if the “1969 Camaro Z28 Deep Tone” sound bite includes the resonators.  I intend to call them to ask.
22  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z on: March 28, 2012, 11:00:31 AM
jmcbeth,

I have a 05A Norwood built '69Z.  My car had headers and "turbo" mufflers when I purchased it.  During the restoration (1995 - 2000), I replace the complete exhaust system with stock manifolds and a transverse muffler system based on my homework and the info from Jerry M's book.  At that time I did the restoration, I could not find resonators so I installed the supplied "resonator by-pass" pipes. 

Are your resonators original GM or NOS units?

Do they quite your exhaust note considerably?  Maybe you could post a video clip on You Tube and give us a heads up when you post it???

Could you post a couple of pictures?

Has anyone had their '69 Camaro built on or after May '69, judged at a Camaro Nationals, Carlisle, etc., and how did they judge your car based on the resonators?

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Dave

PS: It interesting to read in Jerry M's book that GM increased the base price of the '69 Camaro as they made the muffler system changes and added chrome exhaust pipe tips.
23  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: Tachometer calibration source? on: March 27, 2012, 10:54:18 AM
Thanks 68camaroz28,

I'll add them to the list to consult.

Dave
24  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Tachometer calibration source? on: March 26, 2012, 11:21:12 AM
Does anyone have a source(s) that calibrates Camaro 1st Gen (GM in general) tachometers? 

How happy where you with their service and what is the average costs? 

The tack in my ’69 is in good shape cosmetically but I need to verify its calibration.  An initial review thru a web search I found Auto Instruments located in Collinsville, VA, autoinstrunments.com, 276-647-550.

Thanks in advance for your recommendations and feedback!
25  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings on: February 02, 2012, 06:02:56 PM
Hello Everyone,

Great discussion and input.  As I mentioned earlier, several years ago, I replaced most of my original, and/or the generic hardware my car accumulated over the years from its previous owners, from bumper to bumper that was rusty or pitted beyond "show quality" condition.  I probably spent between $1000 - $1500 at AMK, Paragon, and Larry Christensen to assembly the hardware I needed.  When I get time, I'll pull my AIM and my AMK catalog that contain my notes which list all the places in the AIM where a common used hardware is found as I has done earlier in this discuss thread.

Again, it's most important when we post pictures of hardware that is from original and/or survivor cars, that we also share where the hardware is used, the car's build date and build plant.  The bolt/nut thread spec's are also is good info, but it is very helpfull if you have an AIM, to state the page number, detail number, and the GM part number assigned to the hardware. Once we know this info, we can can cross reference the hardware part number with that in the AMK's catalog number and determine the spec on the hardware: i.e. thread size, length, etc.

If we keep this up, eventually we can provide an extremely helpful hardware restoration guide for virtually all the primary components on our cars.  As I was restoring my hardware, I thought about making a hardware guide with a 3-ring binder with the page from the GM AIM on one page, and a pictorial references on the opposite page of original hardware, with cross references to the hardware in the AMK catalog.  If this guide where to be made for sale, licensing from GM to use the AIM would be required, but this guide would save countless hours restoring a 1st Gen, particularly if you buy one missing the drive train, had an original component replaced and generic hardware was used, etc.

Your thoughts?   
26  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 302 Starter Motor Brace Bolts on: January 28, 2012, 10:40:37 AM
AMK's catalog is very extensive and worth the $ if you need to see hardware and cross reference it with the hardware called out in the factory assembly instructions manual or (AIM).  The AMK catalog is a must have along with the AIM if you are doing a complete and accurate restoration.

My hope is one day CRG will have a pictorial reference guide for nearly all the primary hardware pieces on our 1st Gens.  The pectoral guide could be organized and flow along with the AIM sections and show pictures of the hardware, and the variations in the hardware based on the various suppliers who provide a fastener for common used applications.

You will find in other hardware related discussion on CRG that AMK's hardware head markings may not exactly match the original hardware, but functionally and visually, it is as close as we can get for an accurate restoration.  The best solution is cleaning and replate the original hardware if it is restorable, which is often not the case due to rust and pitting.
27  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings on: January 28, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
The fender battery lead ground screw is a "D" head marking.  See the close-up picture attached.  The AIM manual Section 12, page 161 for L6 and page 162 for V8, call out screw #9420415 as detail #8 and the toothed lock washer #174916 as detail #7 for L6 or detail #2 & #3 for V8.  Both are available from AMK.  The AMK part numbers are: Screw #B11097 (6-pc pack) or #B11099 (25-pc pack); washer #B-11314.  Both are Zink (dark silver) plated.

As you inventory or catalog the assembly manual, you will find that screw 9420415 was commonly used and called out in the following pages and detail numbers I list below.  I inventoried nearly the entire '69 AIM and cross referenced the hardware part numbers with the AMK catalog.  I did this about 3 - 4 years ago as a winter time project to update the hardware on my car to look new and on par with the rest of the restoration.  Some of my car's original hardware cleaned up nicely and was reused but a large portion of it was rusty and pitted and had to be replaced.

Screw 9420415 & Toothed Lock Washer 174916 (if applicable) locations:

P28 Screw detail #3 – windshield washer jar bracket to core support (qty. 3)
P460 Screw detail “Prod Screws” call for same screw detail #3 noted on P28 for washer jar mounting for the RS application
P161 Screw detail #8 & L Washer detail #7 - auxiliary battery ground wire to fender 
P182 Screw detail #13 - license plate bracket retainer, upper center location
P155 Screw detail #3 & L Washer detail #4 - frd. lamp harness wiring ground to core support
P155 Screw detail #12 - horn relay & buzzer asm. retainer to firewall
P155 L Washer detail #9 & Nut detail #10, #121743 (AMK #B-10502, Zink-dark silver) - wire lead to alternator
P156 Screw detail #7 & L Washer detail #8 – head lamp wiring ground wire to core support, LH side
P439 Screw detail #5 (#9428476 same as #9420415) - U63/U69 AM/FM radio capacitor & lower ground strap to firewall
P440 Screw detail #4 – U63/U69 upper ground straps (qty. 2) to firewall
P441 Screw detail #2 & #5 – U63/U69 lower ground strap to frame & forward ground strap between inner fender and frame (total qty 4)

Note: There may be more callouts in the AIM for Screw 9420415/9428476 and/or L Washer 174916.  I stopped once I combed thru the AIM for the standard assembly build uses and options that I have on my car. I did not inventory the C60 AC option as this option did not apply to my Z28.

If you find errors in this list, or discover additional areas in the AIM where this hardware is used, please edit this list for the CRG member’s benefit.  If you have, or access to, a survivor with this hardware still in place, please share a picture of the screw if the head marking is different.  Also, please state the car’s assembly build plant and build date.

Thanks!
 
 
28  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 302 Starter Motor Brace Bolts on: January 26, 2012, 09:55:27 PM
Here is AMK's starter bolt set #B-5006.  The two primary bolts are 3/8-16 x 1.84 L and 3-5/8" L, both are 9/16" across the flats (AF).  The screw that secures the top bracket to the engine is a 5/16-18 x 5/8 L, 1/2 AF, and the nut is a 1/4-20, 7/16" AF.  AMK also sells each piece of hardware separately.

For the most part, AMK's hardware is functionally and visually correct, but may not exactly match the original head bolt markings.  As you will learn on CRG, several suppliers provided common used fasteners so variation in the head markings can be expected. 

Good luck with your project!
29  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings on: January 26, 2012, 09:35:25 PM
And picture set #3, with a couple of rubber grommets pictures also.
30  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings on: January 26, 2012, 09:24:57 PM
Here is picture set #2.
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