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46  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 03, 2014, 06:07:02 PM
His shipping date is in Feb.

"I don't know why this issue keeps coming up or how it got started, but it's incorrect. Windshields and backlites were installed manually in the plant (two guys with suction-cup grippers for each glass), just like the replacement guys used in the glass shops. Machines/robots weren't used successfully to install fixed glass in production until MANY years later."

I stand corrected... probably started by the replacement glass companies which is where I heard it years ago.

John, was the "dam" material READILY/EASILY available to after market installers at the time?
If so how common was it for outside glass installers to use the "dam"?
47  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 69 coupe window outer weatherstrip/fuzzies on: September 02, 2014, 07:58:24 PM
The blunt rolled end on the stainless is the tell tale giveaway of an OEM piece, none of the after markets produced has this detail correct.
48  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: eng vin compaired to car vin on: September 02, 2014, 07:00:03 PM
Have you checked the trans VIN? If it and the engine's VIN exhibit the same characteristics they are likely original as the stamps were set a person not a machine, however if you want a piece of mind so for when you sell it then be sure to get a competent Camaro appraiser to certify the car. 
49  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 02, 2014, 05:56:36 PM
Thank you Rik67 that is very helpful in understanding processes and the accumulation for glass not passing inspection.

The 1969 Fisher Body Service Manual states as a Note in the beginning of the Stationary Glass Section ***" When the glass is originally installed a rubber sealing strip "dam" is used around the edges to prevent excessive squeeze out of the adhesive caulk material. Service installations do not utilize this part. By applying masking tape around the inner perimeter prior to installation excess material is picked up and removed with the tape.***  emphasis added

This part "Dam" is what I understand to be the difference in the factory installation.
It is visible in the photos I showed.

 I have magnified detail pics of the windshield edge, glass bed and sealer in place taken with a macro lens, the windshield thickness appears as 2" at native resolution.
50  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 01, 2014, 02:40:21 AM
This is a discussion on a TRI 5 Forum....
Shat-r-proof and LOF marked on the same windshield -
Shat-R-Proof" Windshield?
My convertible has a windshield marked Shat-R-Proof in the lower passenger corner. I assumed the original had been replaced. Then I saw a friend's original '55 that also had one. Where these used by the factory in '55? It's also marked LOF and coded, but I don't know how to decipher. Thanks!
51  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 01, 2014, 01:41:24 AM
GM Marks
Additionally, General Motors itself required several specific marks on OEM glass, including:

Shaded --Added to tinted GM OEM windshields when they included the upper, dark (non-AS1), tint band. For regulatory purposes these windshields are only AS1 glass below the tint band.

AS1 is defined... as Laminated, thus Laminated need not be spelled out. the AS1 classification already includes Laminated Windshield.

Seems to me all the above glasses exhibit all requisite markings...
52  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 01, 2014, 01:17:18 AM
oops small mistake DOT codes came in the 70's

No I do not believe after market installers could install glass the same as the factory at that time.
It would take someone with a DOT coded glass installed with the factory seal in a pre DOT car for me to believe it.

Say what you will but the Shat-r-proof glass is going back in the car as everything found to this point indicates it is the ORIGINAL factory installed piece.

DOT markings may not have been required until the 70's however I had a 45 k mile april 1969 Z28 Legend certified original paint car with DOT bugs on every glass.
I have read the report many times I have also removed tons of glass and have never seen a factory type seal used in conjunction with an after market glass, as an aside I know what the abbreviated installation looks like and this seal was never cut.  

What is the earliest appearance of DOT coded glass in a 69 model year Camaro?
When glass was going from non DOT to DOT coded there are any number of things which could have happened.

BTW the report states LAMINATED was a STATE MARK from historic state requirements not a GM required mark.
53  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: September 01, 2014, 12:40:22 AM
Just a plausible explanation I will throw out here: Cars did get damaged in transit, that is a fact. Some where damaged before they left the plant parking storage. Some were damaged at the dealer lot too. Who knows, maybe GM supplied the cloth covered seals in those repairs... and those windshields have been on those cars since delivery to the 1st owner, so , since new. explains a lot. I have seen a lot of sheetmetal repairs and overspray on new cars as well. Also historically speaking, there was a lot of unrest during this time in our country (protests and riots) that could have interrupted usual supply chains.

So now there are 3 of them... no DOT codes... which consequently were implemented after these 3 cars were built.... hmmm
Still doesn't explain the windshields being installed with the factory glass adhesive sealer... that is the issue, if the glass were in there and it had an after market install their would be no question, however it is my understanding that it was not possible for an after market supplier to install glass by hand manually as it was done inside the factory with a machine. 
54  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: August 31, 2014, 07:05:52 PM
All Norwood first gens should have an LOF windshield. It is a legal requirement to  have the AS-1 the M-  and the DOT  as part of the monogram. LA Camaros should have an Lof windshield as well. Its possible for a PPG to have made it into a few also as they had the windshield contract for the Firebird.

 Shat r proof is an agr or aftermarket supplier
I am going to have to disagree... I have provided detailed evidence showing at least 2 Norwood cars had Shat-r-proof windshields installed at the factory.

Do you know that Shat-r-proof did not supply a small batch of windshields, to keep prices in line from the current suppliers, for production suitability tests in the process of adding a new vendor, or insert reason here,
I have no way of knowing what thousands of employees in multiple plants did to accommodate production on any given day which is why I have devoted  time and provide directly observed and documented data for aggregation.

Until I was contracted to paint the above car I would have never thought Shat-R-Proof glass could be Norwood installed, however when I started taking it apart it was apparent the glass had never been removed, which is why I posted everything before I removed the glass.   

I enjoy the research of production anomalies, if you have relevant directly observed or personally gathered data I eagerly await your reply.

55  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 69 Z/28 X77 garage/barn find on: August 28, 2014, 12:48:37 PM
Maybe the ones I saw were over the counter replacements, the one I purchased could have been a fitted block it was std bore with pistons and rods no crank, really did not look like it had been run. Because I had a complete +.020 12.5 pistons on eagle rods which were large and small end equalized with the original 1178 knife-edged and balanced we just bored it .020 and used that assembly.
I have the near perfect std bore pistons and rods boeshielded and wrapped in neutral PH paper up in the attic.
56  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 69 Z/28 X77 garage/barn find on: August 28, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
Re the VIN stamp on the engine..   Anything is possible, but not having one is not probable... Smiley   
I have emails regarding 2 and have seen an additional 2 DZ blocks which had been vatted, no paint on them, built between mid March and mid April with no VIN anywhere, not in any angle, any light, going so far as to invert colors and use filters in photoshop, obviously there were many Z's built during the period however to find between 2 and possibly 4 from my postings about this years ago illustrates they are around.
Perhaps the confusion resulted from the phasing in of Firebirds to Norwood from Lordstown in April of 69, can you imagine? Pacecars, COPO's, Z28's, RA Firebirds and then in May Trams Ams... Holy crap the number of parts on the assembly line would likely increase by 30% is that correct?   
57  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Shat R Proof Front windshield with no DOT? on: August 27, 2014, 04:32:03 PM
I have the same windshield in my Z. Put in in 78 or so when rust was repaired around the dash.

By "same" you obviously are not saying it is installed with the factory cloth type seal, however are you stating that your windshield does not have a DOT marking and that the Glass markings are EXACTLY as the one illustrated letter for letter or does yours have a similar looking Brand Logo with details being different?

So another member has contacted me with a 68 L78 survivor his father purchased new it also has a non DOT Shat-R-Proof front glass (never replaced)... that makes 2... anyone else have one?
58  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: LOS/VNY 69 Z28 cowl paint on: August 27, 2014, 02:23:37 PM
Original paint 09B LOS 1969 Z28 - even has narrow 68 style trunk stripes - in the wiper grille you can see the black linkage.

59  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Date code of part boxes on: August 27, 2014, 02:13:03 PM
 If you are finding the date on a flap that folds into the carton the printer would have been the one to have done that as most customers do not spec dates on the outside of the carton. Often printers put info including registration marks and color bars on glue seams where they are not visible unless you rip apart the package. 
I sold paperboard rolls and sheets to Folding Carton Plants, as a matter of fact Flashfold Carton (2nd photo) was a customer of mine so this is first hand info.
the 2 cartons below are for 70-73 Z28 Bowtie centercaps
The original type raised logo NOS caps came from the 84 dated carton and the later style from the 89 dated carton.

60  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Broadcast sheets, VIN sequence and build dates on: August 27, 2014, 01:39:59 PM
I have one for a '69 Camaro and it looks like new. Also have other paperwork from the same dealer.

Last fall I saw an original Gutenberg bible, 558 years old. Probably wasn't always well stored but still looked pretty good. Kept dry and indoors, paper does just fine.

The yellowing comes more from UV light or contact with other oxidizers, between carpet and underlayment is not anywhere close to as archival as a folder out of the sun.
Particularly acids either in the carpet or from rust etc?
I have a build sheet which was so black from the asphalt underlayment it was not legible, I used a 9x13 pyrex and fast lacquer thinner laying it on papertowels and puring the laquer thinner through the sheet, it is nearly back to original coloring and perfectly legible.   
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