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76  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 06:15:15 PM
Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...



Phil, I've been reading your book and have enjoyed it (currently near the end of the 69 model run P135) so congratulations on that accomplishment, but if I may, it might be better to just give what you believe the correct answer is and based on what. Nothing wrong with referencing the book but making it seem like a commercial will turn members off. I'm confident that was not your intention and congratulations again on the book.
By the way, would I love to have one of those RS SS 396 Convertibles loaded on the trailer (p115) like the one up top with chambered exhaust. What else that caught my eye was the wheel combination as it seems many or all have trim rings and dog dish caps.

Thanks for the complements!  In order to explore the minutiae of detail that interests the forum here-this would consume enormous amounts of time.

 So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case.
77  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 06:08:43 PM
That's disappointing. You won't discuss the topic or answer any direct questions. 'See my book' is not really a discussion point. Sad

The Book is a book.  Not an internet venture.

A word of caution.  The book was vetted for accuracy by a team of plant personnel.   For example when you speak about technical information pertaining to Fisher Body Norwood Know this- there are two men who ran the build data for Fisher at the data management level and for production-- and they are a phone call away... also understand that because one type of documentation was relied upon in one GM plant when you focus on how one specific individual plant operated you will find variations in technology and implementation and integration.  

An example is robot usage at Norwood...despite the age of Norwood it was the first to get the technology at the assembly plant level.
78  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 05:46:03 PM
Works for me.  I have over $10K in receipts for travel and expences for the research alone.

To those who support the book - my sincerest gratitude is extended.

79  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 02:58:35 PM
Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...

80  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 02:23:11 PM
As expected, you have no wish to discuss things logically or broach any topic that does not fit your model, or share any of your thoughts with the rest of the hobby.

A) we know that Norwood painted SOME cowl tags white. - No argument (Seems like it started around 11C - maybe earlier but thats the earliest tag I can find with white paint on it)
B) we know it took place after body blackout - otherwise it would be under the blackout.
C) After body blackout the only station left on Fishers side was the trim shop (Yes/no?)

So the tag was sprayed so the guys in the trim shop could tell if a car needed style trim, or interior molding, tinted glass, standard or deluxe seatbelts, a manual or power top, or some large bumper gaurds?  I'm going to assume they could tell it was an RS, or needed a remote control mirror?  Because everything else on the tags was already done to the car, by the time it hit the front of the paint booth.

If it wasn't for the Fisher guys, and GM did it, when did it happen and who needed the info.  Does the logic not flow, am I missing some huge peice of the puzzle?

Mark I do not need to discuss it here.  This topic is discussed in detail in the book. 

However if I wanted to expand on the topic in this thread you provide little incentive to do so, as with your accusatory attitude you will likely continue to take any answer provided in endless circles.

For the others monitoring this thread - I will say for the record that the process concerning the tag painting was a very minor human element related aspect of production (for 1967 only) and is pretty thoroughly examined in the book.

www.norwoodassemblyplant.com

Phil Borris

 
81  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
See question one above, you've stated it was for fisher benifit so they could read the info on the tags easier what were they looking for after body black out occurred?

Obviously is someone sprayed a tag white somewhere between body black out in the Fisher paint shop, and front doghouse drop on the GM side, the tag would still be white, GM didn't tought the paint on the tub unless they took a ding out of it after it arrived, so that picture indicates it was done, which we both agree happened.

The retirees are more than welcome to post their views here or anywhere else they feel comfortable doing so.

Mark,

I have made no statements within this thread whatsoever as to why the tags were painted. 

The Norwood retirees are more than happy to meet you face to face however. Grin 

The offer stands. Smiley
82  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 11:46:14 AM
You paying my air fare?

Answer me this one question?

What parts did Fisher add to the car that are specified on the cowl tag, post Firewall blackout?

I do not question that some tags (50-60% ?) have the white paint applied, I'm just wondering what good it did Fisher at the point it had to be sprayed on the tag.  And if we assume that they quit doing it in 68 and 69 because the amount of info on the tag no longer documents anything other than interior and exterior colors and if the car had style trim or not then that means it was not used by the GM side of the plant for anything, since they only needed the body number.


No sadly I cannot pay your expenses.. You rambled on for the better part of two paragraphs and capped it off by saying that you" did not know why it was done"..

So you are being offered a fair chance to find out. 

The entire story of the tag painting episode is memorialized in the book including a photo of a car with a painted tag... you could buy the book.

Invite and the chair up front still stands.  The retirees are intrigued as to what you can educate them on.
83  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 11:12:43 AM
Thats a version of the guy with the poor eyesight story.  The only problem with that theory is that it was done post paint line, since that is when the body black on the firewall was painted onto the tub and the white e=overspray would have to of occurred after that, either in the trim shop, or even later as it went over to GM.  At the point the cowl was painted black all of the options Fisher had to add to the car were complete except the color and style of the interior.  There would have been no reason to even glance at the cowl tag at that point, since the interior would already be on the line in the sequence that the bodies were coming down the line.  And not every car has it.  I'm not a beleiver.
The only thing GM needed to see on the cowl tag (or the BBC hanging on the car is the body number, since that was the tie to the original dealer order that defined what options went on the car untilt GM assigned a VIN to it.  After that, there was no info anyone on the GM side needed. 

I've seen them as early as 11C in 66 all the way thru 06C in 67.  A lot in the 03C thru the end of the year, but intermittent thru out the rest of the time.  Not every original one has it, but its hard to tell if others that have had spraybomb engine compartment restorations have it.  They definitely had paint applied here and there and figuring out why is what is called RESEARCH.   There doesn't seem to be any obvious option associated with it, like every custom interior car got it, or every vinyl top car got on, or SS's and Z28's got it.   They also started doing it for a reason, and quit doing it for some reason, as there are none in 68 or 69 with white paint on them.  What changed in the process, again research, not anecdotal story telling.  I don't know why they did it, but I do know it did Fisher no good, by the time it was painted.


Mark,

I have alerted some of the Norwood retirees to this thread and we have talked-so....How about you be my personal guest at the Friday Night Panel discussion where assembled before you will be Engineers, Managers, Production Superintendents, and Line personnel.     

Perfect opportunity for you to tell them exactly how things operated at the plant - that they operated.

Seriously--I will give you a seat right up front.  This will be an expanded event and I am sure you will enjoy the experience.  Grin  So let's correct the record on how production ran and the line operated how about it Mark care to take us up on it?
84  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Stamping Tool for VIN on Block & Trans on: April 07, 2013, 06:50:24 AM
Several on the Pilots in 1967 were 283 equipped.
85  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: It's Baack-----2014 Z28 on: March 31, 2013, 01:46:34 PM
And every Z28 engine cubic inch designation since 1970 was a corporate level engine that also was used in the Corvette too.  This included even the 305.   305 was the base Z28 engine in the early 1980's and also used previously in the Corvette as well.

The LS-7 in 14.. I love it and the car!   The Z28 changed with the times through the years and even when they were poor performers in the early 80's - odds were that everything else was the same or worse.    Gee with  '14 we have a factory Z06/LS-7 engine now coming to a Camaro-- and BOY I want one.   

 
86  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: It's Baack-----2014 Z28 on: March 31, 2013, 07:24:24 AM
Scott Settlemire has some personal comments on the 14 Camaro that provides fascinating insight as to how GM internally makes decisions, on one hand to try  to pay tribute to the first generation Z/28 through the new for '14  model by drawing an over emphasis in the (/) as the defining point--that in his case that the new "Z/28" is indeed pure from a heritage point of view.

I would have to admit that I disagree with quite a bit of his opinion - and I think that the new 427 drivetrain is more of a departure from the original intent of the first generation Z/28 in much the same way the new for 1970 model was....anyway here are the links. to his comments.    I still like the car but his comments in the first two posts below leave me scratching my head.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286046
87  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: It's Baack-----2014 Z28 on: March 27, 2013, 05:46:00 PM
I like it.  I like the fact that I do not have to take AC if I don't want it.  The hood is not exactly what I would like to see - but it is today's performance technology designed to reduce lift at high speed. 

Faster track laps than the current ZL-1 too.   What is not to like....

I am getting one Smiley
88  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Order status "Echoes Of Norwood" on: January 31, 2013, 06:56:22 PM
Thanks!    Got your order.  Additional paper has arrived and the next print run is being scheduled now. 

Books ordered in the first print run are on schedule to ship by the 4th.
89  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Order status "Echoes Of Norwood" on: January 27, 2013, 02:16:33 PM
Mike,

Should be exactly the same.  The issue is that the paper I am getting is special order from a vendor with a lead time and I simply did not get enough as I underestimated the pre-order volume on the book.
90  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Order status "Echoes Of Norwood" on: January 27, 2013, 10:46:57 AM
www.norwoodassemblyplant.com   (no comma this time)  Thanks!

On the paper- you have to be picky with the paper you use along with the weight and the fiber direction.

Paper and tight micro fiber makes a big difference when you are looking at the fine detail in photographs and how it prints out. 

It all looks good at first glance but when you put a magnifier on it to examine the fine detail you can really tell.
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