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61  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 03:29:31 PM
Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?

Somehow, in your never-ending quest for the truth, you apparently failed to check the visitor logbook from the front lobby desk where Chevrolet engineers signed in every day; you'll find my sign-ins in February and March, 1969, from the Chevrolet Pilot Line. Jim Seim, who contributed a TON of material for your book, will remember me, and my boss at the time from the Chevrolet Pilot Line (Jim Heise) was the Chief Inspector at Norwood.

No... As a matter of fact No one recalls you - to this very day in a Norwood employment context.

In an effort to determine who you were the retirees even investigated you.    This was all before the book came out.     I approached your work there as a likely visiting engineer for the facility modifications going on at that time as lots of engineers came in for modification engineering work in the spring of 1969.

What puzzled the real Norwood Retirees was the fact that anyone who toured the plant would have (or should have) understood that Norwood was a body drop and Fixed pedestal operation on the Chevrolet chassis side immediately and recalled that detail.   

The fact that your previous assembly document prior to the March 14 2013 edit portrayed Norwood as a TOWVEYOR operation Like Van Nuys to the reader (while drawing no fundamental distinction between the two processes) unfortunately lead some fanatical restorers to raise drivetrains up to the body with the front sheetmetal already installed following your instruction to the letter... 100% correct for an LA car but laughable for a Norwood car.

 I mean to tell you some Guys actually did this type of restoration and it was 100% wrong for a NOR build.

 In the beginning when interviewing the Norwood workers I attempted to use your process as a guide for questions and more often than not the answer I got was "no that is wrong"- who told you that??"  so I abandoned that as a formation for the interview and structured the interviews in free flow style.

So you see now 40 years on I am interviewing hundreds of guys who knew their jobs like the back of the hand because that is what they did all day-every day.  The memory is seared in the automatic portion of the immediate recall.

And now the book with the documents, details and recollections of the men who were there.  Perhaps you were there too.  I would have to say I believe you.  I have to tell you that based upon the reviews conducted on the March 24-2009 -March 14, 2013 technical article No one from the Management had any reason to believe you were.

But there is still more..The final bit of research was actually conducted by the Norwood retirees--on you.  The only Norwod guy that could recall you was a guy that worked with you at Central Office.  He was an ex Norwood guy who recalled you quite well even recalling your departure to Chrysler....  Your boss was DePetro...  Your Nickname was "Captn John".

Anyway perhaps with this the partisan bashing of the book that I authored that was written entirely from information gained from the Norwood retirees will cease here on this board.  It really needs to - life is far too short.


I am glad you and the CRG decided to edit your assembly process document on March 14 th of this year to remove glaring inadequacies such as "Norwood not having onsite rail load out"  That was kind of embarrassing  It was built in 1964.  I happen to have the blueprints for the plant... all of them - an entire truck load infact.     Who knows perhaps the sign in log may surface too one day that will show your name.  After rummaging through attics over the years nothing surprises me anymore


So you see John I did my research and quite well -- please credit your most recent edit to the assembly Process to the Men of Norwood-  They deserve it.


62  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 08:52:43 PM
Ed

Wow I must be on a nerve... Sorry about that guys.  Now why cannot John just answer the question?  What is the problem here gentlemen?

I am not worried about credibility at this point for very well supported reasons. Grin
63  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 08:28:29 PM
 Guys.. Why jump to conclusions ?? It is really a simple question that John should be able to answer. Grin
64  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 12:14:21 PM
Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
65  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 11:42:23 AM
John,

Thanks for going on the record on that issue. Grin
66  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 07:06:39 AM
You must have short arms if your reaching out.  Nothing to see or learn here, lets move along folks.

Offer still stands Mark... You would have a blast I am sure.
67  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 06:19:51 AM
Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 
And exactly how did they remove these vehicles from the assembly line and put them where? Have you been in a plant when it's running???
So, you wrote a book, but you can't actually provide any quotes from it?

That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
YUP......X2
You guys understand. S2D2  = same st*ff, different day.
Stirs it up, but can't back it up.

You are right Kurt,   I and the Norwood guys are idiots for trying to reach out to you and the CRG.

What in the world were we thinking?   Roll Eyes

X3...

   
68  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 08:25:41 PM
"So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case."

 I disagree with the underpinning comment but why not share what the book explains. Maybe that would answer the question the Group asks and also entice members to get more curious and buy the book to learn more.

Mike,

Mike

I hear you and I wish I could.  That would be a precedent setting mistake that I would grow to regret. 

 Believe me when I tell you that the white paint on a trim tag is "trivial" when compared to the other revelations that the research confirmed. 

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 

That is why I refer to the book and tell people to read it.  Upon request I will authorize a brief quotation or a summary statement from a party who has the book and I have no problem as long as the quotation is in proper context and and accurate.
69  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 06:15:15 PM
Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...



Phil, I've been reading your book and have enjoyed it (currently near the end of the 69 model run P135) so congratulations on that accomplishment, but if I may, it might be better to just give what you believe the correct answer is and based on what. Nothing wrong with referencing the book but making it seem like a commercial will turn members off. I'm confident that was not your intention and congratulations again on the book.
By the way, would I love to have one of those RS SS 396 Convertibles loaded on the trailer (p115) like the one up top with chambered exhaust. What else that caught my eye was the wheel combination as it seems many or all have trim rings and dog dish caps.

Thanks for the complements!  In order to explore the minutiae of detail that interests the forum here-this would consume enormous amounts of time.

 So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case.
70  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 06:08:43 PM
That's disappointing. You won't discuss the topic or answer any direct questions. 'See my book' is not really a discussion point. Sad

The Book is a book.  Not an internet venture.

A word of caution.  The book was vetted for accuracy by a team of plant personnel.   For example when you speak about technical information pertaining to Fisher Body Norwood Know this- there are two men who ran the build data for Fisher at the data management level and for production-- and they are a phone call away... also understand that because one type of documentation was relied upon in one GM plant when you focus on how one specific individual plant operated you will find variations in technology and implementation and integration.  

An example is robot usage at Norwood...despite the age of Norwood it was the first to get the technology at the assembly plant level.
71  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 05:46:03 PM
Works for me.  I have over $10K in receipts for travel and expences for the research alone.

To those who support the book - my sincerest gratitude is extended.

72  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 02:58:35 PM
Who ever has a copy of the book.. You have my permission to quote the passage from the book that is particular to this topic here in this thread.

Quite a few of you have it BTW...

73  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 02:23:11 PM
As expected, you have no wish to discuss things logically or broach any topic that does not fit your model, or share any of your thoughts with the rest of the hobby.

A) we know that Norwood painted SOME cowl tags white. - No argument (Seems like it started around 11C - maybe earlier but thats the earliest tag I can find with white paint on it)
B) we know it took place after body blackout - otherwise it would be under the blackout.
C) After body blackout the only station left on Fishers side was the trim shop (Yes/no?)

So the tag was sprayed so the guys in the trim shop could tell if a car needed style trim, or interior molding, tinted glass, standard or deluxe seatbelts, a manual or power top, or some large bumper gaurds?  I'm going to assume they could tell it was an RS, or needed a remote control mirror?  Because everything else on the tags was already done to the car, by the time it hit the front of the paint booth.

If it wasn't for the Fisher guys, and GM did it, when did it happen and who needed the info.  Does the logic not flow, am I missing some huge peice of the puzzle?

Mark I do not need to discuss it here.  This topic is discussed in detail in the book. 

However if I wanted to expand on the topic in this thread you provide little incentive to do so, as with your accusatory attitude you will likely continue to take any answer provided in endless circles.

For the others monitoring this thread - I will say for the record that the process concerning the tag painting was a very minor human element related aspect of production (for 1967 only) and is pretty thoroughly examined in the book.

www.norwoodassemblyplant.com

Phil Borris

 
74  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
See question one above, you've stated it was for fisher benifit so they could read the info on the tags easier what were they looking for after body black out occurred?

Obviously is someone sprayed a tag white somewhere between body black out in the Fisher paint shop, and front doghouse drop on the GM side, the tag would still be white, GM didn't tought the paint on the tub unless they took a ding out of it after it arrived, so that picture indicates it was done, which we both agree happened.

The retirees are more than welcome to post their views here or anywhere else they feel comfortable doing so.

Mark,

I have made no statements within this thread whatsoever as to why the tags were painted. 

The Norwood retirees are more than happy to meet you face to face however. Grin 

The offer stands. Smiley
75  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 11:46:14 AM
You paying my air fare?

Answer me this one question?

What parts did Fisher add to the car that are specified on the cowl tag, post Firewall blackout?

I do not question that some tags (50-60% ?) have the white paint applied, I'm just wondering what good it did Fisher at the point it had to be sprayed on the tag.  And if we assume that they quit doing it in 68 and 69 because the amount of info on the tag no longer documents anything other than interior and exterior colors and if the car had style trim or not then that means it was not used by the GM side of the plant for anything, since they only needed the body number.


No sadly I cannot pay your expenses.. You rambled on for the better part of two paragraphs and capped it off by saying that you" did not know why it was done"..

So you are being offered a fair chance to find out. 

The entire story of the tag painting episode is memorialized in the book including a photo of a car with a painted tag... you could buy the book.

Invite and the chair up front still stands.  The retirees are intrigued as to what you can educate them on.
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