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61  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 21, 2013, 10:11:12 AM

Tom, I didn't realize that GM sanded and filled the subframes, then painted them with a Polyurethane paint system, as your car was.  What part of a proper "restoration" document was that posted in?  Your car is VERY nice, much nicer than mine, and probably way nicer than it was when it rolled out the door 46 years ago, but if we're going to start the proper restoration discusiions, why don't we start there.  What is an acceptable deviation from "factory" before a restoration becomes a restificaton?  I know mine falls into the second, not because there is anything non stock about it, but because of how its been repainted, options added that it didn't have originally, etc.

Phil, how did the enamel paint testing go, any of the retirees remember painting the 03C cars that way?

Note these are not attacks, (unless some part of them are not true) just questions about the process.

Mark,

I will let Tom speak to his portion of your question that addresses him.

Your contention (years ago when I was doing the 03-C Paint research) was that a build like that was technically impossible.  You contended that the cars could have not have been painted in any other paint system other than Lacquer at the factory.  Your conclusion was based in part on your understanding of the assembly process - and a contention that a car could not ever have been assembled without paint - therefore any other paint system other than lacquer from GM was impossible.

Some additional information:   Multiple workers and supervisors recall from time to time small batches of cars where the paint line was "inactive" meaning cars went through and were not painted.  These cars were assembled entirely through to the final line wearing only the prime coat and painted later.   

For those of you with the book turn to page 89 where the GM Build documentation is shown directing the factory to build just such a car.   "VEHICLE NOT TO BE PAINTED SHIP IN PRIME"

62  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 21, 2013, 06:46:41 AM
I will let the Norwood guys know the bashing has started again so they can watch you guys in action.
63  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 07:16:46 PM
Phil and Tom,
I've been asked in multiple PM's and emails why I don't ban both of you.
Well, because I don't like to ban anyone. But slander and personal attacks are *NOT* allowed here. Any more posts in that tone and you're gone.

Discuss the topic, not the person.

Thanks Kurt,

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to post here at the CRG.
64  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 04:07:57 PM
Kurt,,

For the sake of complete transparency:   http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2510094833/m/6851072846/p/1

65  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 04:04:38 PM
After reading all this I wouldn't buy that book if it was on the 99 cent rack. Your too arrogant for me.

The plant was a big shouldered place.  No place for thin skinned folks.  it is what it is.
66  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 04:02:21 PM
Phil,
So, that's the CRG-shattering news?? John's edits on the assembly report were done many months before your book even came out. They just didn't make it onto the site til recently - Bryon helped get them into HTML cause I'm swamped.

Interesting that you insist on answers but never answer questions asked of you.

For some unknown reason, you seem have a personal axe to grind with the CRG. A *serious* researcher would discuss their research to the benefit of the hobby.
Jerry MacNeish and JohnZ both do. Jon Mello started a new forum category to discuss T/A cars and invited all the original drivers and builders to participate and they do.

Instead of helping the hobby by including the Norwood employees in the discussion, you use them for your attacks - I doubt that is what they wish to happen with their knowledge. Why not include them in the discussion, ala the T/A forum? The T/A guys are as older or older and managed to join the forum.

So, what are you doing to benefit the hobby - other than just stirring the pot??

Kurt,

I have saved all of the threads where you and others from the CRG have stalked me on the internet over the years..

 Where I would find information that came directly from an original source at Norwood and dared post it you were there with the cold water to throw on it all while using the flawed assembly process to make your case for what was "correct".

I am involving the T/A guys.. but I have to say exchanges where you approach people just like you did here will never entice any of the Norwood retirees to participate EVER.

I am stirring the pot by telling the truth.    If the book brings no benefit to the hobby you and I simply operate on a different plain altogether.

67  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 03:35:45 PM
festival

Where are these meetings and is anyone invited to attend?  Depending on the venue and my schedule I would be interested to hear what these guys have to say.

Oh, and it would be nice if you answered questions people asked you.

Nobody knows everything - but most of us are willing to learn. 


Sure you are welcome to attend.. want to display your car?  That is the best part!
68  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 14, 2013, 03:29:31 PM
Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?

Somehow, in your never-ending quest for the truth, you apparently failed to check the visitor logbook from the front lobby desk where Chevrolet engineers signed in every day; you'll find my sign-ins in February and March, 1969, from the Chevrolet Pilot Line. Jim Seim, who contributed a TON of material for your book, will remember me, and my boss at the time from the Chevrolet Pilot Line (Jim Heise) was the Chief Inspector at Norwood.

No... As a matter of fact No one recalls you - to this very day in a Norwood employment context.

In an effort to determine who you were the retirees even investigated you.    This was all before the book came out.     I approached your work there as a likely visiting engineer for the facility modifications going on at that time as lots of engineers came in for modification engineering work in the spring of 1969.

What puzzled the real Norwood Retirees was the fact that anyone who toured the plant would have (or should have) understood that Norwood was a body drop and Fixed pedestal operation on the Chevrolet chassis side immediately and recalled that detail.   

The fact that your previous assembly document prior to the March 14 2013 edit portrayed Norwood as a TOWVEYOR operation Like Van Nuys to the reader (while drawing no fundamental distinction between the two processes) unfortunately lead some fanatical restorers to raise drivetrains up to the body with the front sheetmetal already installed following your instruction to the letter... 100% correct for an LA car but laughable for a Norwood car.

 I mean to tell you some Guys actually did this type of restoration and it was 100% wrong for a NOR build.

 In the beginning when interviewing the Norwood workers I attempted to use your process as a guide for questions and more often than not the answer I got was "no that is wrong"- who told you that??"  so I abandoned that as a formation for the interview and structured the interviews in free flow style.

So you see now 40 years on I am interviewing hundreds of guys who knew their jobs like the back of the hand because that is what they did all day-every day.  The memory is seared in the automatic portion of the immediate recall.

And now the book with the documents, details and recollections of the men who were there.  Perhaps you were there too.  I would have to say I believe you.  I have to tell you that based upon the reviews conducted on the March 24-2009 -March 14, 2013 technical article No one from the Management had any reason to believe you were.

But there is still more..The final bit of research was actually conducted by the Norwood retirees--on you.  The only Norwod guy that could recall you was a guy that worked with you at Central Office.  He was an ex Norwood guy who recalled you quite well even recalling your departure to Chrysler....  Your boss was DePetro...  Your Nickname was "Captn John".

Anyway perhaps with this the partisan bashing of the book that I authored that was written entirely from information gained from the Norwood retirees will cease here on this board.  It really needs to - life is far too short.


I am glad you and the CRG decided to edit your assembly process document on March 14 th of this year to remove glaring inadequacies such as "Norwood not having onsite rail load out"  That was kind of embarrassing  It was built in 1964.  I happen to have the blueprints for the plant... all of them - an entire truck load infact.     Who knows perhaps the sign in log may surface too one day that will show your name.  After rummaging through attics over the years nothing surprises me anymore


So you see John I did my research and quite well -- please credit your most recent edit to the assembly Process to the Men of Norwood-  They deserve it.


69  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 08:52:43 PM
Ed

Wow I must be on a nerve... Sorry about that guys.  Now why cannot John just answer the question?  What is the problem here gentlemen?

I am not worried about credibility at this point for very well supported reasons. Grin
70  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 08:28:29 PM
 Guys.. Why jump to conclusions ?? It is really a simple question that John should be able to answer. Grin
71  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 12:14:21 PM
Oh John,

Help me out here... I have copies of the personnel records from Norwood.. Your name does not appear anyplace... Can you elaborate when you worked at Norwood?
72  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 11:42:23 AM
John,

Thanks for going on the record on that issue. Grin
73  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 07:06:39 AM
You must have short arms if your reaching out.  Nothing to see or learn here, lets move along folks.

Offer still stands Mark... You would have a blast I am sure.
74  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 13, 2013, 06:19:51 AM
Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 
And exactly how did they remove these vehicles from the assembly line and put them where? Have you been in a plant when it's running???
So, you wrote a book, but you can't actually provide any quotes from it?

That said:  I think I'm done with this thread......
YUP......X2
You guys understand. S2D2  = same st*ff, different day.
Stirs it up, but can't back it up.

You are right Kurt,   I and the Norwood guys are idiots for trying to reach out to you and the CRG.

What in the world were we thinking?   Roll Eyes

X3...

   
75  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: are cowl and trim tags painted on: April 12, 2013, 08:25:41 PM
"So you see how a simple topic like trim tags getting sprayed white-you know you would think that is pretty cut and dried right... No because many believe there was some structured process at work underpinning every move on the line.   That was not the case."

 I disagree with the underpinning comment but why not share what the book explains. Maybe that would answer the question the Group asks and also entice members to get more curious and buy the book to learn more.

Mike,

Mike

I hear you and I wish I could.  That would be a precedent setting mistake that I would grow to regret. 

 Believe me when I tell you that the white paint on a trim tag is "trivial" when compared to the other revelations that the research confirmed. 

Lets say we discuss the fact that in 1969 it was common to assemble Camaros without engines.   Heads will start to explode around here!    listen- I simply do not have the time to engage on that level. 

That is why I refer to the book and tell people to read it.  Upon request I will authorize a brief quotation or a summary statement from a party who has the book and I have no problem as long as the quotation is in proper context and and accurate.
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