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1  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 16, 2015, 11:13:03 AM
ZL1 #16 is a treasure in that it remains unrestored and with its original owner. He shows it regularly and if you should happen upon it be sure to check out the E78 x 14 tire label on the LH door. Built with F70 x 14 Firestones.

ZL1 #59 is Hugger Orange and was built with style trim group. Had white D96 stripes on one side; black on the other. Unfortunately was not restored that way.

No 'do over' @57 units per hour I guess.
2  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 16, 2015, 10:30:25 AM
The photo of the ZL1 engine on a stand is from the February 1995 issue of Chevy High Performance. It's the block from ZL1 #26 completely rebuilt to OE specs to see what it would do on the dyno. I doubt that is an OE air cleaner; we provided some parts for the build and were credited in the feature.

The dyno results are on this site: http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Bill Porterfield owned the #26 engine and ZL1 #3 at the time; there may have been an ulterior motive for building the engine. The owner of #26 had the engine from #3. Despite offering this engine and $$ neither engine has returned to its original chassis.

The other photo is one I posted in the COPO article. The PHR test of #5 was re-visited in the June 1998 Hot Rod by Ro McGonegal. With only headers and wimpy 6.5" slicks it went 11.64. That's Hellcat territory, 46 years ago. Imagine what that car would do on today's tires.
3  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 16, 2015, 07:31:07 AM
First of all Iím not attacking anyone here personally. Iím presenting the reasons for my viewpoint on this topic.

Donít believe everything you read. Iím quite familiar with the COPO Connection book; my name is in it. It was and remains an excellent source of COPO information. But the statement ď427 air cleaner sticker was absent on all ZL1s leaving the factoryĒ is just plain foolish. The first ZL1 was final assembled December 30, 1968; the last June 3, 1969 a span of 156 days. No one saw every one of those cars as they left the factory so no one knows. The COPO 9560 Engineering docs that specify the 427 label came from an earlier edition of a COPO Connection book; I guess he didnít read them. Iíve dug a bit more and found three more vintage photos of COPO 9561 cars. Two have the decal, one does not. As for the statement ďThe ones I've seen doesn't have the sticker on the lid....Ē the only vintage photo you could have seen is the one I mentioned. Only two ZL1s were photographed in the day; the #3 ZL1 is the other but the air cleaner lid is not present in the photos. Iíd like to see photos of the other 98% before concluding none of them had the label. Iíll bet every restored í69 Z/28 has a 302 label on the air cleaner but the January í69 Hot Rod feature of an 09D LA Z/28 shows the factory did forget on occasion. Could they have just forgotten on some COPOs?

So what did I do when putting the finishing touches on ZL1 #4 27 years ago? No 427 label. But I have no problem with ZL1 #6 having the label. It is entirely possible it was built that way.

4  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 15, 2015, 03:31:02 PM
Chevrolet documentation indicates otherwise. Did COPO Connection personally inspect all 69 ZL1 Camaros?



5  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Time to buy a real deal ZL-1! on: April 15, 2015, 02:33:11 PM
Jeez,
At least put the air cleaner seal on right! AND, not suppost to have the 427 sticker on the lid. A high dollar car like this should be totally correct. JMHO.

That isn't necessarily true. The Engineering Parts List for COPO 9560 shows STICKER-ENGINE IDENT #3902414 was added; #3902410 [396] was deducted. STICKER ENG HP DESIGN #3916144 was deducted; nothing was added.

An engine photo in the July '69 SS&DI test of Yenko Camaro N579281 shows the crossed-flags 427 label only as specified in engineering documentation. Engine photos of ZL1 #5 N608381 in the July '69 PHR shows no label. Some had it; some didn't.
6  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1969 Camaro with 3-Speed Manual Trans and Console? on: April 10, 2015, 10:08:02 AM
That's only true for a 4-speed. For the 3-speed there is no difference in the seal, retainer or hardware with or without a console. The knob is chrome with a console; standard is black with shift pattern.
7  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1969 Camaro with 3-Speed Manual Trans and Console? on: April 09, 2015, 10:19:11 PM
Not true for '69. The AIM shows #3893853 is used with or with out a console.

For '67-'68 the console plate has the slider and the seal WAS different than the seal used without a console. For '69 the plastic tunnel replaced the slider. 
8  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1969 Camaro with 3-Speed Manual Trans and Console? on: April 09, 2015, 06:58:30 PM
The #3974526 seal looks nothing like #3893853; isn't even close. That's why NOS is $275.
9  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1969 Camaro with 3-Speed Manual Trans and Console? on: April 09, 2015, 05:37:35 PM
The D55 section of the AIM is vague for the 3-speed; the only real difference is the tunnel and emblem. The seal and retaining hardware are the same.

I was involved in Camaro parts business many years ago; we had many 3-speed tunnel & plate assemblies. I recall the tunnel was shorter and nearly round at the bottom compared to a 4-speed. I'll bet some old-time parts guys still have used ones.
10  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1969 Camaro with 3-Speed Manual Trans and Console? on: April 09, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
The seal used with M11 is shown on page A1 of the M11 section: #3893853. It's the same seal used for the 67-68 Muncie 4-speed. Judging by the comments I see it either isn't reproduced or is poorly done. A CRG member is investigating having it reproduced.

For '69 MC1 was the new H-D Muncie 3-speed optional only with LM1. It was dropped as an option when LM1 was discontinued but remained the standard trans for SS cars. The shifter was Muncie also; same for M11 and MC1 with or without console. It mounted to the cross member. A console was not required.

Style points to you for keeping the 3-speed! Quite a few '69 Camaros were built with one.
11  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Stamps on: April 08, 2015, 02:27:48 PM
Some parts like alternators received an ink stamp in addition to the hard stamp part number for fast ID @ 57 units per hour. However I doubt it was done on a machine like that. Probably they were tested at the end of the line and were hand-stamped when they passed.
12  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: ZL1 timing cover and oil pan bolts on: April 06, 2015, 10:40:41 AM
There are plenty of ZL1 engine photos in vintage magazines but those are likely engineering builds. The only reliable production ZL1 engine photos are of the #3 ZL1 in the August '69 High-Performance Cars. Intake fasteners appear to be zinc; the oil pan fasteners are clearly visible in one of the undercarriage photos; probably zinc. Timing cover isn't in the photos.
13  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: 69 camaro dash pad peeling on: April 06, 2015, 07:40:39 AM
If it is the original pad the plastic liner is probably warped and the vinyl has shrunk. I used Weldwood; it works for a while but will lift again shortly.
14  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Air Cleaner Stud '69 ? on: April 06, 2015, 07:23:59 AM
Don't have engineering drawings so I can't ID it.
15  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Air Cleaner Stud '69 ? on: April 05, 2015, 03:19:02 PM
Air cleaner studs are application-specific; 7 different part numbers for '69.
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