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Messages - william

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It is N500003, never had a body tag. It was displayed at MCACN many years ago. Engine was dated June 15 so built sometime afterwards. Intake had a hand-stamped part number; dash cluster looked hand made.

Only feature that stood out was that it was built with a Muncie shifter; had the 67-68 punched tunnel hole with the welded reinforcing ring. Looks like the decision to use a Hurst shifter was a late change. Initially thought to be painted gold, looks to have been red or orange originally.

It was recently sold, resto is in process.

Nearly identical to the photo on the back page of the '69 Chevrolet Sports Department brochure.

Probably a late Styling car, when final striping/trim decisions are made. The car on the brochure is configured as a Z/28 with Style Trim but has a black grille and standard headlamp trim. Possibly the same car used for the "We've got a mean streak" print ad. Also seen in the showroom brochure, with the later rev depicted with a ducted hood.

The only known '69 Pilot build, a Z/28, was recently sold and is undergoing restoration.

How do the ZL1's and COPO's figure in the the ZL2 total? Are they part of the 10,026 sold? If so then would you add together Z10's, Z11's, ZL1's and COPO's and then subtract from the 10,026 number to get the total ZL2's ordered for all other cars?

As I noted, only discrete options were counted. The ZL2 Ducted Hood was included with COPOs 9560 & 9561; it is never listed on factory documents for those cars. Not included in the 10,026 total.

COPO 9737 required 9560 or 9561. N711022 was not built with it.

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Opinions on BE rear stamp
« on: August 09, 2018, 02:11:08 AM »
I have a July 9 date, next one is August 25. There could be other dates. There are mid-August dates for other axle codes so the plant was back in production. Norwood was shut down July 12-Aug 10.

The COPO body of knowledge is based on around 450 cars, many of which are missing drivetrain components. Lots left to learn.

2 things that stand out to me on that yellow Z.
1) most N56**** I encounter are 72 paint or Hug. Orange. This gives some date idea when the orange ordered cars ended.
2) The production date 12/27 makes me wonder if this is a 12C car. And Since this car is approximately 2000 past my 12B, I wonder if an accurate date of production could be extrapolated?

I have no idea what you are trying to establish relative to Hugger Orange. It was an RPO color for the entire production run. Paint color was a factor in scheduling production; it was a very popular color [est 12%] and it is likely a booth was dedicated to it. I checked our db; most colors are well-represented for the month of December ’68. Orange is the most common followed closely by Fathom Green and Le Mans Blue. It is a very small sample; there were 10,000 N56xxxx cars built.

The doc states 12/27 as the ship date. N565105 was final-assembled on or about December 20, 1968. It is ‘on or about’ because they were not built in VIN order.

It is a convoluted calculation based in part on Muncie 4-speed production. I come up with 16.6% or 635 installations. Probably close as total L72 engine production was 1,015 with 193 [19%] being MO [auto] code. Unknowns are L78/MC1 [std. trans] and M20 which was both Saginaw and Muncie.

BTW Chevy muffed the M21 production number of 26,501. 97% of L34, L78, Z/28 and COPO production would have had to have it to get there. Correct M21 production total is likely 15,880.

So what would be the most rare options on it? Engine block heater?  Additional coolant?  Any way to find out how many units were released with X options?

No, there isn't. Chevy published production only by discrete option. Options included with other equipment were not counted. For example, only 116 Camaros were ordered with CE1 Headlight Washer. CE1 was included on each of the 37,773 Rally-Sports as standard equipment. So, not rare. Combinations of options would be complicated.

In the case of N711022, there are a few rare options. Only 2,117 M22s installed in '69 Camaros. 2,124 K05 engine block heaters. Seems surprising but a factory-installed ZL2 hood is actually fairly rare. 10,026 sold but about 4,100 were installed on Z10s & Z11s as a mandatory option. Only about 5,926 installed as an elective option.

L78 engine production has been mis-stated for decades. The official number is 4,889 but since COPO build records list the L78 engine, it is not accurate. There were 69 ZL1s and 997 L72 COPO Camaros built so the actual L78 total is 3,823.

As for the orange interior, about 4,200 produced. 3,675 were Pace Car replicas where it was a mandatory option. Having owned two Z/28s with orange interiors, I can attest to the fact that it [and yellow] are not for everyone. Probably why they were so rare.

The doc contains some internal gibberish that would not appear on the window sticker and other docs: F62 G32 J50 J52 V48 ZK8 ZL3 ZQ7.

The ship date is not the final-assembly date. Based on other data, the car was completed on or about November 6, 1969.

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Opinions on BE rear stamp
« on: August 08, 2018, 12:23:26 PM »
It is well off the 1-3 week span that is more normal. July 8th was one of the last days of production at the Gear & Axle plant prior to a 6 week shutdown. It is also right at the transition between the 341 and 860 center section castings. Normal to purge all raw material inventories prior to a shutdown so not out of the question. I know of an October BE with a larger cast-to-build span.

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Opinions on BE rear stamp
« on: August 08, 2018, 12:44:32 AM »
Looks ok to me, known date. What is casting date?


Listed on ebay a few minutes ago: 124379N711673. Built on the last day of production, November 7, 1969. N711022 was likely built November 6, 1969.

The CRG does not inspect, appraise or certify anything. However, our core members have a tremendous amount of experience with 1st Gen Camaros. Like everyone else, we are free to make unsolicited observations about questionable claims. I have been challenging some incredible claims on our site for years under the heading Caveat Emptor: swapped VIN and body tags, fake tags, re-bodied cars, re-stamped drivetrains, outright lies.

In the case of this car, you posted information and stated: I will continue to peruse your research but wanted to know what you all thought!

Some very knowledgeable people saw red flags immediately and said so. You bitched about it:

I expected more enthusiasm versus skepticism.

When you ask for opinions, be prepared for the unvarnished truth. We are here to tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Would you rather find out after you buy it?

The car in question may be a rare combination of options: SS-RS, 396, special front bumper, orange interior. That is significant only if it was built that way. There are several shops that will build whatever you want and slap a reproduction body tag on it. As noted, the JL8 brakes and U46 claims immediately come into question. 

The car has obviously been restored. The left rear wheel well appears to be orange; they were not body color in production. Also, the default stripe color for 72-72 paint was white, not black. Anything can be done during the course of a rotisserie restoration.

So sit back and ponder your free assessment. 

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...not as advertised
« on: August 04, 2018, 08:43:43 PM »
I enlarged the pics. Looks like some of it is still blue [column, seat belts] but much of it is black.

Decoding/Numbers / Caveat Emptor...not as advertised
« on: August 04, 2018, 07:00:30 PM »


Photos depict a Le Mans blue RS with black standard interior. The body tag tells a different story: not an RS, had a blue standard interior.

From the ad:

Factory option: Muncie 4-speed, 3:73 posi 12 bolt rear end correct date code C69, correct  4053 holley carburetor, original aluminum intake with spider web, functional cowl induction hood, rally sport package, front and rear spoilers, rocker moldings, rally wheels, 8000 rpm tachometer, console with gauge package, in-dash clock, wood steering wheel, Endura front bumper.

The tag looks OE and never removed from the car. The VIN should be in the range N627xxx-N636xxx and match up with the partial VIN on top of the cowl. VIN tag rivets should be OE, not hardware store pop rivets.

Looks to have been used as a parts car. Assume anything of value [axle, trans, brakes] is gone. May have been crashed [orange SS clip] so there's that. Check it for collision damage and heavy rust in all the usual areas. If all that checks out AND there is a live [not salvage] title it may be worth that. Be sure the title matches the VIN.

Don't buy it thinking you are going to restore it. It might make a nice race car or resto-mod builder.

That and the converted-to-RS Z/28 tells me the owner had no problem messing with the originality of these cars. One of the 'Z/28s' is automatic. The orange RS is a hodgepodge of junk and incorrect parts. The 'restored' '67 Corvette 427 has a decked block so who knows.

People do stupid things at auctions. Don't be one of them.

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