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103769 Posts in 12187 Topics by 4699 Members
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436  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 67 Pace cars on: February 27, 2007, 07:37:33 PM
Lets stick to the facts as presented by Charley and Phil. There is absolutely no question that this car had an L78 drivetrain installed by the factory assembly line and delivered as such to GM Engineering. Facts are indisputable when backed up by original engineering documentation, and a protecto plate as proof it was built and delivered as such. Opinions, well everyone may have one, but in this case they are not necessary as the documents speak volumes.
437  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1967 396 on: February 26, 2007, 11:47:35 AM
The car left the assembly line as an L78 4spd and delivered to the tech center as such, with the protecto plate in the glove box documenting the orig installed drivetrain info.  Subsequent changes were made at the tech center.

I would like to thank Charley for sharing his car, by showing it at his expense for all to see at several show a year. Two of which were the GM Nationals. This allowed the researchers/ historians the ability to connect the dots and identify the cars historical past in full verifiable detail.

438  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1967 396 on: February 26, 2007, 10:55:43 AM
I too want to make sure that the facts regarding pace car#1 are presented accurately.

*Fact the car would have been coded 4N if the original intention was for it to be an L35. 

*The original documentation backs the fact that it was built an L78.

*Fact the car has the original  protecto plate which I dentifies that this car was built as an L78 , 4spd car.

*Engineering subsequently decided to convert the car to a L35/L34 engine and automatic. Possibly for reliability/ ease of driving issues.

So in summary the car was built as an L78 and converted. All of this is documented with engineering work orders.

If anyone has information that is contrary please share it. The histories of these cars are important and our goal should be to present is as accurately as possible. Isn't this what this forum is about...

439  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: 1967 396 on: February 24, 2007, 08:21:48 PM
Pat to my knowledge the L78 pace cars were the first, as Charley pointed out.
440  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: firewall overspray on: February 07, 2007, 09:58:53 PM
Another 69 Survivor Z28 built 4D. Hope this helps... I have other years as well.
441  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: firewall overspray on: February 07, 2007, 09:23:38 PM
Unrestored firewall 69 Z28 built 5A. Note the orig PTB stamp and the RED written in crayon, under the black.
442  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: firewall overspray on: February 07, 2007, 04:45:41 PM
Attached is a pic of my survivor 69 L34 built 9B of 68. The black is almost to the top and has the correct factoryfeathered edge. The placement of the black edge varies from car to shift and plant. I have inspected many survivor cars and I would not say that the seam is a good reference point. I have many more pics of this car as well as other survivors.
443  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Barrett-Jackson lawsuit on: February 06, 2007, 04:53:13 PM

 they must have figured out a way to buy it back?

But Barrett Jackson says they don't allow that to happen....    Wink

Obviously if someone wants to buy their car back they can easily have a buddy bid. BJ will cancel the bid if they believe a  friend or business associate is bidding on the sellers behalf. Policing it is next to impossible, however the seller is now required to pay both the buyer and sellers fee of 18%.
444  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Is my DZ motor a phony? on: February 03, 2007, 10:02:59 PM
  I was checking out some 69 Z's online and found a Daytona Yellow Z28/RS at ( Northwest Auto Sales ). The trim tag has a 12A build date but also has X-33. Is that a phony tag on that car? Just wondering as I keep reading that 12B is the transition to X-code dates?

Fake tag
445  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Barrett-Jackson lawsuit on: February 03, 2007, 07:01:20 PM
I am curious why the buyer  didn't have Larry C look at the car prior to it being auctioned on the block. It seems at some point the buyer has to take responsibility. Isn't it just the sellers opinion, as he has been quoted as the best, he is not necessarily an expert (nor is he claiming to be one), possibly it's the best in his little world. Did he claim it won any show or that it competed at a high level judged venue?? At some point the buyer needs to take some responsibility, seems like sour grapes afterwards...buyers remorse possibly. Look at the sellers perspective, he paid to sell his car at a great auction and now that opportunity is possibly lost, because some buyer for what ever reason changes his mind. There are risks at auctions, and they are certainly "buyers beware". If you want to buy a car at a auction, you better educate yourself or hire and expert prior to the purchase NOT afterwards. Option wise it is probably up there with the most optioned JL8's.  I know Mike R's lemans blue RS may have a few more, but the list is short.
446  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Barrett-Jackson lawsuit on: January 31, 2007, 03:36:30 PM
That is because the people were buying the over-restored, made up, recreation cars
with the beautiful base/clear paint, and all the phony paperwork.

The true survivor cars with the dull laquer, or faded paint, and original interiors don't appeal to that type crowd.

What is sad is, that the phony paperwork is starting to get very good.

I laughed a few times when you see that they added the "seat spring" stain.
The Phony POP's are getting extreemly close.
The trim tags are getting better everyday.

Soon the paperwork won't mean anything anymore.
I really don't know what this will do to our hobby, but it cant be good.

I can't agree with the statment regarding survivor cars. Based on my experience survivor cars are as , if not more valuable than concours restored cars in the market. The market interms of buyers may be smaller, but the # of true survivors is even smaller (very rare). This puts them at a premium. A good example was last years survivor Z at BJ that sold for 211K, for a base Z28 with few options. Since survivors are my focus of interest I hear of survivor car selling for tremendous amount of money. To me they will alway bring a premium, and as clones and fake paperwork improve so will the demand for pure pedigreed cars.

I believe the quote above hold true for speculators, trophy buyers and novices however. Benchmark cars are invaluable to the hobby and help preserve our cars true heritage, not some restorers interpretation.
447  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Barrett-Jackson lawsuit on: January 30, 2007, 05:02:07 PM
Just for giggles, I sent the text of the article as an e-mail both to the Speed Channel's main address as well as to the e-mail address for Wind Tunnel , which is a viewer call in / participation show also on the Speed Channel.  Wanted to see if they would in any way respond to the article since the BJ auction is on the Speed Channel.  Haven't received anything and really don't expect to.  In the spirit of fairness, though, wanted to give them a chance to comment if they wanted to.

Its amazing there were a bunch of people complaining how BJ was ruining the hobby because of the astronomical prices last year, and now another group is complaining how low prices, and how some bidders weren't given and opportunity to bid...hence the low prices..

My take is that the fourwheel drift fella has zero credibility. Most if not all his statments are unfounded or have been proven to be false. With such a big event you can't please everyone. And my take is that it is great entertainment, but you won't see me purchasing a car at an auction anytime soon.
448  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: Smog pump on 396/350-4sp? on: December 29, 2006, 08:03:52 AM
Hello, Help me settle a bet, did a 69 Norwood car (not for Calif.) with a 396/350 hp w/4 speed and power steering have smog system installed at factory? Thanks,C

Yes, all 69 big blocks had smog regardless of plant or transmission.
449  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Vintage Camaro Certification @ Camaro Nationals on: December 28, 2006, 09:23:30 AM
Vintage Camaro Certification is a judging program who's sole purpose is to recognize, provide status and promote un-restored (survivor) Camaros. We believe it is the only program that focuses on and documents survivor Camaros. Certifications are held annually at the Camaro Nationals @ Carlisle sponsored by American Camaro Association and held in conjunction with the All GM Nationals. We understand not every original car is 100% untouched, and we offer four levels of certification, based on the originality of the Camaro. This is our eighth year at the Camaro Nationals. This is list of a few cars we have certified at previous shows: 1970 Dick Harrell 454 Conversion (Steve Sandlin), 19K mile 69 Yenko(Don Stowers), 14K mile 69 RS/SS L78(Jeff Boone), 9k mile 70.5 RS/Z28(Ben Arena),12Kmile RS/SS L48(Rick George), 22k mile 70.5 Z28 (Jack Seymore). This program has limited spaces, so register early. The car doesn't necessarily need to rare, just original. If your Camaro is over 30 years old and think your car qualifies, or want to know more about our program email me at and I will email you our information packet and application or call (631) 514-9765. It is truly amazing the jewels of information that can be learned from these benchmark cars. Participants receive an 8 page detailed report documenting your car, plaque, signed certificate and shirt. If you are into Camaros this is the show, June 22,23 & 24.
450  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Originality / Re: How do members stand on dealer installed undercoating? on: November 06, 2006, 06:28:42 PM
I have seen a couple of cars that were high pressure steam cleaned, and inspection markings were still present. I know someone who soaked the underside in kerosene and manually (plastic scrapers and rags) cleaned the underside, and again it came out beautiful. My car was undercoated at the dealer and at some point want to remove the undercoating. Obviously it is easier to leave it alone, but that clean factory look is what I am after.
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