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271  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Kerosene washing??? on: January 15, 2007, 11:05:49 PM
I know to many this may seem to be an odd topic and a series of questions which have literally nothing to do with Camaros directly, first gens or otherwise, but my Z is hibernating away for the next 5 months or so and I have too much time on my hands obviously!!
Do any of you recall stories of washing vehicles in years past with kerosene or by adding it to the water bucket when washing a vehicle?
I recall many years back seeing a few older gentlemen who had cars that were 20 and more years old and still in perfect condition due to the fact that they (apparently) regularly washed their cars with at least some kerosene added to the water. It apparently got under and behind the chrome bits and into body seams where it slowed the rust and seemingly made a great difference to vehicles that normally would have rotted away many years earlier in most cases, due to heavy salting of our roads in the winter months.
The topic come up on another board briefly and it brought back memories of cars I saw that were immaculate back in the sixties and early seventies. The cars I recall seeing were then 15 to 20 years old and the paint and chrome was perfect - the reason I was given was the use of the kerosene...
The link that I read lately mentioned it was an old-timer's cure for keeping paint from oxidizing and the chrome bright and it got me wondering if it would still work as well today. I'm curious if it would or not be compatible with the current base/clear paints and all the plastic bits on vehicles today depending on the amount used.
Anyone know if this is more fiction than fact from years past or if it did work, would it still in this day and age? If yes then how much would or should be added to the water to help produce the desired effect without going overboard and creating environmental problems and a smelly mess?
I just bought a new Sierrra Z71 and driving it tonight through all the salty road slush really made me cringe and got me thinking about trying it if I can get some feedback that is positive...
Odd topic and questions I know, but I realize there are many oldtimers on this board (besides myself) who may be able to recall if this was a common and beneficial practice in years gone by.  Thanks - Randy   
272  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 2009 Camaro is Coming!!! on: August 15, 2006, 03:18:45 PM
I think we all are sharing the same sentiment.  Except for minor styling carry over (69 side fake side louvers, console mounted gages, 68 "looking" instrument cluster), not much else reminds me of the 1st gen.  In my mind, the front end is the weak link.  Back end is a much more pleasing design (to me).

Problem is that those that brought us the tri 5 chevys, 1st gen Camaros, etc are long gone, and a different breed of designer is behind the wheel.  Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too by appealing both to those that grew up with 1st gen Camaros and the current youth market.  They aren't the same. 

It will be interesting to see if they can sell 100,000 Camaros / year.  I personally believe that Chevy is off target much in the same way that Ford was with the revival of the Thunderbird.  It was too new and not enought old.  They learned and took that learning to the Mustang. Ford has the right idea with the Mustang. Update it, but definitely have it carry the look of the late '60's.

Couldn't have stated it better myself - but I'll try...   
      It's too bad but I think this should be the signal to all (especially after everyone else is obviously able to get it) that the GM we all apparently fondly remember from the late fifties through to the early seventies for styling and sensing what their buying public wanted, is dead and gone.
      Just because we in this forum are generally first generation fans doesn't mean we have a licence to think we know that everyone generally would have preferred a more retro styled Camaro, as many comments in this forum have shown since the concept cars inception - but I do feel we all share the sense that GM doesn't even care about what we think - and so this model will be pushed ahead because 'they think they know us better than we know ourselves - as to just what we need and want'...
       I said it before and will again - this will be a marginally accepted platform which due to GM's inability to listen to their customer and fan input will deal it a premature death. It will be overpriced and optioned to enable only those prospective buyers with very deep pockets the opportunity to experience a true GM high performance car again, Corvette excepted - but how many of us over the years have chosen to buy Camaros even as we lusted for the performance that a Corvete would have provided - just because of price considerations.
      Ford and Chrysler have been able to fell the pulse of their buyers, but GM doesn't apparently even care to try, and this new Camaro will only be another nail in the coffin unfortunately!  IMHO - Randy
273  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: What should i expect to pay to have a pair of decent taillamp bezels rechromed? on: June 23, 2006, 03:13:44 PM
I have a pair of decet tail light bezels for a standars 68 and they have slight chrome flaking and pitting.... ive never had any thing rechromed so i was just wondering about how much it would cost... i want them to be nice... but not "show" i want the finish to be as origional... thanks in advance... david

I know Moroso makes nice units that are supposed to be excellent quality for repops both fit and quality-wise - but I haven't personally seen any in person. They were sold through Jegs and even Summit plus I've seen them advertised in many Chevy car mags as well. If I am not mistaken they go for a little over $100 each - which isn't bad and I would be surprised if you could even get good original ones rechromed in a quality manner for much less than that. Anyone else have any experience with these repops and/or whether $100 per, would cover redoing originals - that is IF anyone could find ones that warranted the work?  - Randy
274  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Silver Camaro Concept Car - Atlanta 2006 Auto Show on: May 22, 2006, 10:19:37 AM
If anyone cares, there is a lot of good info regarding the new Mustang retro Shelby/Cobra in the newest Hot Rod magazine out for July 2006 (how can they get so far ahead date-wise???) regarding the performance details, driving impressions, and costs of it. Anyway, it seems like the LS2 that Chev may stuff into the new (c)amaro might not be initially enough to ward off the close to 500 hp that the new Cobra will be packing - oh well back to the drawing board...
Anyway - aside from the Shelby article itself - I don't normally read the rants from the editors in their mags since they generally don't really say much, but in this edition David Frieburger (sp??) talks about the timing of the (c)amaro into the retro fray and the new Mustang and other models that may materialize eventually - but the best part of his ditty is where he states essentailly what  he believes all manunfacturers should be doing and when, to get any interest and sales in this newest faze of hot performance market cars, and I for one fully agree with him - see if any of you agree with it as well - the feedback would be interesting...Much of it sounds exactly like what Ford is actually doing at the present time.
It is also interesting to note that Ford not only will make available to the Shelby (and lower retro models of the Mustang) 'over the counter' optional performance packages to suit the new owner in his wish to either make his car a lot better handling or faster straight line etc. just by going down to the dealer and plunking down the $$'s and taking the boxes of parts home and wrenching for a weekend himself. Sort of the grassroots approach that made the Mustang appealling in the late eighties and early ninties and helped it kick the hell out the past decade or two of Camaros and their sales
 I do think Ford has a better idea - and is showing it again... No I'm not a Ford fan in the least - but have to give credit where credit is due...
I don't really think GM has a hope in hell of capturing much of any of this not only by the timing of their proposed new (c)amaro model but in the way they will approach the whole thing when and if they do get one out - considering the past... Its too bad!!! 
There is also a great artist's impression of what a frontal view of a new Firebird retro model would look like with using the new (c)amaro body styling and I have to admit to me it looks absolutely perfect in a retro-sense. Unfortunately the new (c)amaro rendition just doesn't look as right or as instantly recognizable to me   - Randy
275  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Silver Camaro Concept Car - Atlanta 2006 Auto Show on: May 19, 2006, 04:05:46 PM
I found this today at the following linK:
Looks like a GM supported website of "insider news".

For Model Yerar2009, Chevrolet:-

Chevrolet Camaro:

Rumors state that the Camaro is on for model-year 2009. Cheesy Expect the design of the car to follow what that of the Camaro Concept car in coupe and convertible form. Power is said to come from the 3.6L V6 and an optional 6.0L LS2 V8. GM’s Oshawa, Ontario, Canada plant is likely where this Camaro will call home.

Addtional info. at this link as well: which was referenced in a previous post.

 IMHO Chevy better hurry - rumors on CNN. today suggest that the new Mustang 500hp Cobra due out this summer already has at least a $20,000 over sticker bidding price and they may end up going out even higher due to the fact that there are a couple available to each selected dealer - There may not be many big dollar takers left by 2009 for the (new small c) camaro - that and the high pref retro market may start to dry up in 3 - 4 years anyway due to changes in emission standards, crash requirements, and gas guzzler taxes etc.
  If you recall the real high performance times in the sixties only really lasted from late '65's thru to late '70's so by announcing it's availablility until 2009 this whole mess might just blow up in GM's face again as the market could have basically started to dry up - just in time for the new camaro's launch. Considering many of GM's other marketing fiascos over the years - it's really not that much of a stretch to imagine it occurring that way - hope not but....
  If the camaro did only show up with the LS2 in the hottest model and people had to pay over sticker to get one, it would probably only serve to make the Corvette more attractive to buyers in the long run - Randy
276  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Decoding/Numbers / Re: Impossible to document? on: May 07, 2006, 08:35:43 PM
The suggestion to try GM Canada is an excellent one. The first title in Washington state was 12/12/69, the car was one year old by then, it may started life up north. I know I've seen the Canadian info on the site before but does someone have it handy?
                  Thanks Pat

Don't quote me - but I seem to recall from a conversation from someone - either G M Vintage Services or elsewhere - that almost all Canadian sold/documented cars were ones made and shipped from the Norwood facility... - Randy 
277  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Silver Camaro Concept Car - Atlanta 2006 Auto Show on: May 07, 2006, 06:28:52 PM
I still don't like the car, though it may be grow on me.    I think it needs to be much more retro as in 1rst. gen. styling.    But then they did not ask for my opinion.    That said, they may miss a huge part of potential market (baby boomers) by not making significant changes.   Anyone agree, or am I in a dream world???

Yep I agree fully - and if they don't retro the pre-production units more and soon enough to attract interest and satisfy the 'Boomers' they will lose so much hype by the time it is actually introduced, that the car will get shelved for lack of sales soon after it gets into production, if it does get that far...
Don't forget its the 50's and up age bracket that wants the retro stuff mostly, and they are the ones that have the $$$'s to be able to play with and now afford one that is decently equipped not the 20's group (I'm guessing pricing in the mid thirtie$$$ - in a form that will do the Camaro name some performance justice - not a V6-thing with a 3 speed auto for $27,000 with tires). Anyone who says otherwise has forgotten how the Mustang sales stomped the last version or two of Camaros produced and why!
IMHO - Chev will be so late , so overpriced, and so off the target with this not only with the styling, but with the way they market it - that it will fail miserably(what have they done right in the last 10 or more years otherwise to make us believe they can suddenly get it right now Huh except for the Vette - and those performance toes can't be stepped on by other division models as we have been seem in the past).
Others will have their comments I'm sure - if it ever comes to be - it will be interesting to see how it will play out nonetheless.
I still don't like the car as it is now either - but I will admit that as always, styling is a very subjective and personal thing, but that is what made our North American auto industry different from the others back when the cars wars were in full swing... It may grow on me but so far and after a couple of months of pictures, I have to admit I don't have any more appreciation of it now than previously... - Randy
278  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Problems with speedometer reading on: April 04, 2006, 04:01:28 PM
  Just for anyone's information - a few tire size calculator / comparison tools to compare the effects of different sized tires and I'm sure there are better ones available out there!
 The third one is kida neat visually - stolen from my son's favorite S10 v8 site that he frequents all the time. It's amazing the difference for example a 265/70/15 to 215/60/14 would make... Doesn't solve anyone's speedo woes - just a fairly good set of tools for comparing the effects of swapping sizes.

279  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Problems with speedometer reading on: March 30, 2006, 12:38:44 PM

   I'm not up on the speedometer gearing - but as far as I'm aware the only first generation Camaro that had 15" tires was the Z 28 model.
   Again I'm not quite sure how much difference that tire upgrade in diameter would make as translated into actual mph but it obviously would be a constant amount throught the speed range...That would be in addition to any obvious error built into the original gearing for it - which all gear driven speedometer / transmissions have to greater or lesser degree.   --Randy
280  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: Reproduction 1969 Camaro Coupe Shells on: February 07, 2006, 04:39:47 PM

Just my thought for the day after watching this post for a while...

   Doesn't it seem sort or crazy and ironic that the aftermarket sees a large enough market for the first gen body style to go to the expense to do all of this - yet GM doesn't see fit to try and retro / clone up a new model to satisfy those (I'm sure there is a substantial number out there) who don't want to or can't build one from scratch, yet have enough dough in hand to just buy that combo high tech / sixties feel for themselves?
   You don't see anyone repoping sixties Mustang clone bodies - maybe because there is a lack of enough interest - then again maybe the new retro model is taking up much of the slack or demand for such things and Ford is raking in the dough because they had enough forsight to do it right and in a proper timeframe...
281  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Mild Modifications / Re: Aftermarket wheels for my '68 RS/SS w 4 piston calipers? on: February 01, 2006, 11:26:23 AM
I'm having a heck of a time finding aftermarket aluminum wheels that have enough clearance on the backside to clear the hefty 4 piston calipers. The calipers stick out about 1/2" beyond the hub. The car has Cragar SS style wheels on it right now, but they're bent so I'm looking to replace them and don't want factory rally's. I don't want to use spacers or anything cheesy. Any ideas, or examples of what anyone has made work well on these cars?

  I tried quite a few versions and backspacings of American Racing wheels on my '68 Z and never found any that didn't hit the caliper right near the hub area of the wheel. These were mostly the Torque Thrust versions that I was trying to fit (the bent spoke variant) that according to many is the model that goes on Corvettes of that era which also used the 4 piston caliper style - yet none would clear!!
  The only way it appeared I was going to get a set was to order some on someone's say so, and I did come close to getting some from a dealer I met at Route 66 raceway this past Fall in Chicago, on his supposed experience that they would work...but I never got up enough courage to buy before I tried, so to speak.
   I too would be curious (not to highjack your thread here) to learn from others with prior experience of what does and does not work with this braking system, to give me a better handle on where to go with this...
   I would love to hear from anyone who has bought these in a 16" x 7" (or 8") size with a 4 3/4" backspacing as to whether the TTII's will fit well on a '67 0r '68 Zed...I've seen many pictures of these on similar SS models of these cars - there must be some way to get some to work on a Z model
   Thanks  --  Randy
282  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: block boring on: January 26, 2006, 12:36:54 PM

From what I have been told, it is better to re-sleeve than continue trying to bore. I haven't done either as of yet, boring continues to reduce the thickness of the walls decreasing the strength, I have been told it can cause, if over done, piston slap. Like I stated this is what I have been told. I'm new at this also and have gotten a ton of great information from the people here at CRG!


    Unless it is a block that has big value - boring past a certain point isn't worth the risk of hitting water or in the case of a daily driver, the over heating / ring seal problems that will likely come with it...
    Piston slap isn't created by the boring process - its just a function usually, of poorly sizing the newly bored cylinders to the new pistons that would (should) be used in the process.
    I have no experience with sleeves - but would expect that unless its a big dollar situation (read non-daily driver vehicle) that it would too cost prohibitive for most owners to do, let alone the majority of most machine / engine shops to accomplish properly and well.
    For the availability of most any small (or big - for that matter) blocks, especially for situations where the vehicle isn't a collector piece requiring matching numbers - anything over a .030" bore would probably prompt me personally to look for another subject block to spend my $$'s on - especially if the goal was to use it for a long time or under severe conditions such as racing... IMHO  --Randy
283  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 2009 Camaro Pictures on: January 14, 2006, 11:32:56 AM
I agree with Buds 396. I saw the red car yesterday at the LA Autoshow and it does have an attitude. It's much better in person than in the pics.

Just my rant for the day...

   Two schools of thought going on here obviously...

First - we should just be grateful that GN has seen fit to grace us with a new model and dust off the camaro badge to name it...

Second - we think it looks like crap because it isn't a retro model that competes with the new Mustang and Challenger retro models...

  I agree it may be nasty looking in person and perform great or better than any other manufacturer's models - but didn't the last gen of Camaros do a lot of that already? And what happened to it?
  If GM wants to gain some temporary press this new camaro model will do that. As with the new Corvette -GM technology will WOW everyone and it will spank the others in performance and new design with it's 22" wheels etc. and all and the younger crowd would love to buy one - but find out they can't for the most part because the tag will be too high. Unlike the Corvette which is only intended to be a flagship and not make GM much if any $$'s, the Camaro name will end up tarnished and interest will fade because of lagging sales - sound all too familiar? Meanwhile the Mustang (and other models) will flourish and feed those who manufacture them a steady flow of cash to buoy them through the tough times - sound again all too familiar?...
  GN doesn't see the forest for the trees and hasn't for years. If they produced a good retro model with decent mechanicals and price, they would certainly capture all of those who wish to in some small part to pay homage to the sixties when the muscle cars were king - except for those poor wayward souls who are so brand loyal that they would end up on the short stick again, just as their forefathers in the sixties and seventies did.
  Instead GM will choose to put out a hot performing, over priced model that not many can afford to buy, with looks that further splits their market...
         The only things that will be retro with this new camaro model will be:
 it will come out well after the Mustang (and others) have - just like the sixties...
 it will certainly outperform those other models - just like the sixties...
 it will capture a following that are proud to own and drive one because of styling and performance features that appeal to them - unfortunately it will be a small following - unlike the sixties...   
  The difference between now and the sixties with this model will lie in the fact that (and a lot of this may again sound all too familiar) not many will be able to afford to buy one - not enough will be attracted to it's looks to want one - and sales will lag. Because of these issues the Camaro name will again be destined for obscurity within it's model / platform year.
  With much of the same short sightedness that forced GM to abandon the last Camaro generation line, allowed them to walk away from the money making rear engine police / taxi cab market giving it exclusively to Ford, and now the design limitations that are threatening their truck lines - GM seems to be afraid to take a chance on even things that seem to be almost sure bets even in today's times. Maybe it's just a case of being overly egotistic and thinking they know better than the buying public what we really want!
  They don't seem to be able to see it through the red haze produced by all that red ink... 
  Many in this CRG group have first gen Camaros because of GM brand loyalty and design heitage - GM seems to be the ones that have forgotten both in their foreign ties to other manufacturers producing many parts and current models that make their products look like eveyone else's without much of the price advantages and /or quality built in...
Case in Point...
  There is a kid in my neighbourhood who just bought a new Mustang - slime green with black stripes, this summer. Sometimes when I see him coming down the street from a good distance,(poor eyesight, i grant you somewhat) I have to catch myself thinking it's another restored Mustang tooling around that I haven't seen before - then realize the styling of the '05 model differences and he and his new car. It's what a new retro Camaro should do for all of us GM folks - but won't obviously from these '09 camaro pictures!
 That kid loves his new car to death - covers it up nightly - doesn't even drive it if it looks remotely like it could rain, and spends an unGodly amount of time tinkering and polishing the Hell out of it. He went way in the hole to get it NOT because he was a Ford fanatic, (he traded his lowered Mazda pimpmoblile in on it) but because it looks like all of those cars he has seen in magazines for years restored. It reminds me just how I felt about my new '68 when I was the same age.
  I almost selfishly wish GM would do the same, just so I could see through my own eyes how I would have looked to someone my age now - 37 years ago! - Randy   
284  Camaro Research Group Discussion / General Discussion / Re: 2009 Camaro Pictures on: January 07, 2006, 09:34:35 PM
   If that is supposed to what we have all been waiting for - its a huge disappointment to me at least. The new Mustang although much moderized, still has a lot more styling built into the basic shape of the body itself that lets you know in no uncertain terms what it is and it's heritage at a single glance.
   This new camaro look, (I'm using no capital 'c' intentionally here) if the picture shown is a good representation, aside from the induction hood, eggcrate grille, some side window shape, and the rear quarter immitation grilles doesn't give much of a '69 let alone earlier model feel in my estimation - rather it looks a lot like it could be more of a knockoff of one of the new Chrysler models than an early Camaro design.
    I know I'm may be being a bit anal about it - but after having waited this long and watching GM act on it well after just about anybody else who has chosen to do retro models has them out - I would have expected something better. Considering how the GM design guys already had lots good stuff to work from with their own first gen designs over the Ford and Chrysler people in my honest opinion, I would consider they have dropped the ball again if this one ever comes to be...
   As proven with the last generation of Camaros, you can throw in great mechanicals and at decent prices - but if it isn't dressed in a body package that appeals to the masses - it won't sell squat!   
    I still think it looks like it could be hiding a FWD chassis - please tell me my worst fears are not going to come true in that respect... --Randy
285  Camaro Research Group Discussion / Restoration / Re: 68 cacaro rear spring, front mount. on: November 28, 2005, 05:06:23 PM

   All that holds the front spring bracket to the body is three captured or clip nuts and their bolts... Seems hard to believe - but thats all there is to keep it all together. The spring bracket locates up into a reinforced pocket in the floor section as you I'm sure have seen and the three bolt and captured nut arrangements per side just help keep everything in place. Cutting the bolt heads off with a dremel, grinder, or fire wrench is the only way to remove them if the nuts are spining - getting the remaining bits out isn't easy but can be done if your patient enough, but not necessary normally...     --Randy-- 
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