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Messages - z28z11

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Here's an original - as far as I can tell, it was a phosphate finish (no evidence of cad or zinc iridite), either plain steel or phosphated nut and washers. Bolt is 1/2-20, 4-13/16 length under the head. Only marking I can see (sorry for the rough finish) after beading is an "L", which I highlighted best I could for the pic. I have both sides, they are identical markings and specs.

Hope this helps -


Decoding/Numbers / Re: New member trying to find out what I have- Barn Find
« on: February 15, 2018, 01:54:25 AM »

I believe your thinking is pretty straight. BB cars are always sought after, more so if you can prove what they are or how they were optioned. For the one with the missing engine, you can plan either way (modified or stock) and not really detract from the car or the value significantly, but the A/C car would likely be better restored if it indeed has a lot of the original equipment. Pretty desirable combination in my estimation. Both cars look like good candidates for restoration - nice find and a good purchase.

My BB SS L78 car is one of those that the NCRS paperwork skipped (12A '68 build). One week shy of the X codes, it's most saving grace is the original block is still with the car, but I would sure like to know what dealer it was sold through in Illinois. The search goes on - you can never find enough info on these cars, which is a lot of the fun in owning them. Good luck and keep us informed on what you discover, and send pics.


Decoding/Numbers / Re: New member trying to find out what I have- Barn Find
« on: February 14, 2018, 04:43:08 AM »
Ditto the rear bulkhead check for X coding - it will help determine a bit more of the puzzle. The VIN's are not going to give you a lot of help.

I can see on the one with no front end sheet metal what appears to be a Muncie speedo cable position, and a twin fuel line, which rules in a 325 or 350 horse motor (or a 350 SB). Any evidence of black paint on the rear cove panels, under the trunk edge on the corners ?

If one or both cars have style trim, side rain gutter moldings will show that as well. If the original rear ends are with the cars, should be 12 bolts, both will likely have dual exhaust plates welded to the rear frames in the outer wheel houses behind the tires.

Post more pics when you can - most all of us love detective work.


General Discussion / Re: X Codes
« on: February 11, 2018, 03:26:56 AM »
Thanks, Bill - I'll be sure to look at it if I ever get to the need of taking the back seat out of it.

Think I've settled the question on the SS - it's not a style trim, so I'll going back to the X66 car that I've thought it was all along. Too many things absent to believe it was Style Trim.


Originality / Re: X66 standard trim
« on: February 02, 2018, 08:37:26 PM »

I think I answered everything in the post from 2/1. The original block is all I needed to verify whether it is/was an SS, if that's what you're driving at, although everything else points to it anyway (dates, date ranges, cove paint, non-Style Trim BB car).

I should have said vertical gate rather than inline - like a 70's vintage Hurst vertical gate if you've ever seen one. They were cool except for the fact you had to chain saw the tunnel to install them.

In the long run, the most likely of answers to the molding question is that it's not readily explainable. If I leave it off on restoration,
I'll probably get the question of "why is it not installed - all SS's had them !", or "that's wrong", or worse.


Originality / Re: X66 standard trim
« on: February 02, 2018, 05:56:12 AM »
From our Archives Numbers Decoding:

1969 Norwood Camaro         Fisher Code Interpretation
  with Z21 Style Trim             without Z21 Style Trim
  (or Z22 Rally Sport)             (or Z22 Rally Sport)
 -----------------------              ----------------------
 X11* non-SS396, non-Z28,    X44* non-SS, non-Z28
      includes SS350                 X55  SS350
 X22  SS396                           X66  SS396
 X33  Z28                               X77  Z28

 * COPO Camaros were an exception, as most COPOs
   were built out of bodies coded with X11 or X44.
   Some early COPOs had X22 or X66-coded bodies.
 Additional 1969 Norwood Fisher codes that were
 used instead of the X-codes include:
   Z10 - Indy Pace Car replica coupe
   Z11 - Indy Pace Car replica convertible

 Additional 1969 Norwood Fisher codes that could be
 combined with the X-codes include:
   D80 - signifies the car was equipped with D80
         spoilers, but the code was not always used.
    A  - signifies the car was equipped with power
         windows, but the code was not always used.

It's the line about X66 bodies being used that has my interest - maybe the blue car in the pic is one ?

I know - likelihood is slim, but it's always good to imagine. Now, if the JH code 396 sitting in the garage was only an iron 427 block, I'd get really excited (but it's not !).


Originality / Re: X66 standard trim
« on: February 02, 2018, 05:39:05 AM »
Just like jdv69z said about looking on the inside of quarter panels for filled holes. What I would do is remove the black plastic vent in the door jam and look in.

                                       - Warren

Precisely how I determined the moldings were never mounted. View of both quarters from inside shows no evidence of filler, brazing, or piercing of any kind. My X77 looks the same way (of course). The quarters themselves appear original, I'll check the date stamps on them this weekend to make sure they are original.
Not true. There were plenty of X11 COPOs; both ZL1-RS for example.

There is a yellow/black vinyl VE3 Yenko here in town; very high likelihood it is the car in the photo. Built with D55, M40, N40, Z21, Z23. X11 tag. At least one other X11 Yenko known to exist.

I didn't mean to imply all COPO's were X44's, but I think I remember at least some were. In the final analysis of manufacturing, it's still a guess as to what happens to cause things like this to show up. Even "foreign object damage" as it is known in the aircraft business - things sometimes get left in wing panels and fuselage assemblies that you really don't want to fly with (like ham sandwiches, grinders and hand tools pulled out of B1 bomber wings during final inspections - true story). 


Originality / R e: X66 standard trim
« on: February 01, 2018, 03:16:17 PM »
   I don't disbelieve what William and Joe both say - I think you are likely correct. My worst fear is that I've got an anomaly car. Without documentation other than the original block, paint treatment and normal BB/SS attributes, I can't explain why the moldings aren't there. There is no evidence of patch panels, collision repair panels, or drilled and filled holes in the gill area, plus it's (unfortunately) not a 427 car, plus it's in the "dead" zone for the NCRS dealer report, so I'm stumped.  The car spent a lot of it's former life on the drag strip, understandable from the L78/BV rear gear, tunnel cut for an inline shifter, front frame horns dinged from tow bar or hooks. Infernal 12A car, rear bulkhead monkeyed with and painted over (looks like someone had the idea of putting a fold down in it).

Any ideas ? I welcome any reasonable theories, or should I not worry about it and add the moldings when I get to that point ? (I do like the look of plain, matches my X77).


Originality / Re: X66 standard trim
« on: February 01, 2018, 02:52:33 PM »
The pic of the Yenko storage lot that circulated years ago shows a car (which I would guess could be an X44) with a vinyl top and no quarter moldings, no Style Trim either. I seen a good number of Yenkos without them. If someone has that pic on file, please post it again if you don't mind.
This one Steve?

Exactly. I've located several more examples online of Yenkos just like this, no style trim, both with and without vinyl roofs. Memory serves that COPO's were X44's, did Yenko use (early) some X22/66's or primarily 44's ? More than a little fuzzy - 

Originality / X66 standard trim
« on: February 01, 2018, 05:44:03 AM »
I would like to resurrect a discussion we had about 5 years ago concerning quarter panel molding usage on X66 SS cars compared to X22's. Is there (documentation) of an option listing that verifies the mandatory installation of quarter moldings ? I remember the statement about all SS's had them, but I've seen several examples over the years of cars equipped like mine - vinyl top, not Style Trim, no quarter moldings. Could my 12A build SS be something other than an X66, or maybe just one of those line errors that appear from time to time ?

The pic of the Yenko storage lot that circulated years ago shows a car (which I would guess could be an X44) with a vinyl top and no quarter moldings, no Style Trim either. I seen a good number of Yenkos without them. If someone has that pic on file, please post it again if you don't mind.


Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...altered tag
« on: January 31, 2018, 01:08:13 AM »
Terrible If you look at the bidders (37 bids so far), you get a better than average sense of a shill bidder involved as the first 20 or so bids are by a bidder with no auctions to his/her credit. There are a few legitimate bidders involved, but they should know better. Still quite a few members of the Society of the Awfully Poor Souls (SAPS) unaware of faked Camaros, eh ? Code 10 rounds them up every time -


General Discussion / Re: X Codes
« on: January 25, 2018, 04:36:37 AM »
Best I remember, the back bulkhead is wiped clean. I'm considering taking a blacklight to it -

Shame, because the X7 my 01C X77 is as plain as the nose on my face. Never looked at the Pacer -


General Discussion / Re: X Codes
« on: January 23, 2018, 01:24:29 AM »
My SS is either an X22, or an X66, but I can't pinpoint which without original paperwork. 12A car, original engine, but no other indicators as to Style Trim or Plain Jane. Know it's not an RS, but stops there. Wish I knew for certain -


General Discussion / Re: Dealer number
« on: January 22, 2018, 09:35:17 PM »
I can only wish I had the kind of problems you guys are having.  At least I'd have something to go on, lol.   My car falls into that "no information available" category with NCRS. 

Yeah, me too for one of mine. Pace Car came through but the L78 BB was in the Dead Zone. Aggravating, after getting my hopes up (that it might be a Nickey as it came out of Chicago/Illinois area according to old registrations included with the car). At east it has the original 500 lb. POP with it -


General Discussion / Re: Camaro Numbers by State
« on: January 20, 2018, 06:33:45 PM »
There may be a way to research current information through the individual states DOT database. I think (at least) Tennessee used to allow this for market data research purposes, it would probably be generic (ex: 124379N or VN XXXXXX), and probably would only include current titled/registered vehicles, but it might be possible. I saw the regulation rules on one of the last title search forms I did, a couple of years back - it had a paragraph about releasing general info for research purposes only. The fly in this ointment - when I went to transfer the title on the '68 a few years ago, the title did not appear in the state database, as it had been 16-17 years since it was last registered - we had to create a new title for it in order to transfer and register (and pay the taxes on it). I imagine my X77 is like that - I don't think it has been registered (tagged) since 1978. Worth a shot -


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