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Messages - 69er

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1
This is a great discussion, passionate topic. I respect your written and signed affidavit.
Since my last post I decided to call several machine shops from California to New York. I chose
machine shops that have been in business 25 to 35 years or more and machine shops that had
senior engine builders/owners.

I have listed six machine shops below that I called and asked if they have ever rebuilt 1969 Z28's 302 engines. And then asked if they could tell me how the piston pin was attached to the connecting rod from the "FACTORY". The key word here is from the "FACTORY".

All of the engine re-builders responded that the piston pin was of "PRESSED PIN" design.

From what they said,  the L88 was the only engine that came with full floating piston pins from the
"FACTORY".

I find it hard to believe that all these machine shops would be conspiring in some way. They as well are enthusiast and love what they do and are equally as passionate.

I started this thread due to another member posting the AMA passenger car specifications. I have no axe to grind or want to discredit anyone in any way or manner. Now after speaking with at least six machine shops and engine re-builders from West coast to East coast. I feel even stronger now that the connecting rods from the "FACTORY" on the 1969 Z28 302 were of "PRESSED PIN" design.

I urge any member to call machine shops in their own area and ask the same questions I did and draw their own conclusions. I think the moderator of the CRG should do research as well and see where the facts point. And when enough information has been gathered, post it for all to read.

Below is the list of machine shops I contacted. Company name , telephone number, name of engine re-builder and their comments are listed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McQuillen Inc.
8171 East Main Road
Le Roy, NY 14482
1(585) 768-2322

Rebuilt bunch of 1969 z28 302 engines all were pressed pin design.
L88 was only engine factory made with full floating piston pins

Mr. Carl McQuillen - Engine builder
carl@mcquilleninc.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Performance Engine
1-310-679-3604

Tony - Engine builder
Rebuild hand full 1969 DZ - all were pressed pin design
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Hubbard Machine Shop (Been around since 1960's or before)
21030 Meekland Ave
Hayward, CA 94541
1 (510) 537-1885

Wade - Engine builder
rebuilt 2 to 3 1969 DZ - all were pressed pin

Never seen a "FACTORY" 69 z28 with full floating pins for the connecting rods
and has never seen any small block from the factory with full floating piston pins.

Big Blocks, yes, but not small blocks.

Maybe specialty builds had full floating piston pins not service engines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Champion Performance LLC
24290 Sherwood Ave
Center Line, MI 48015
1(586) 755-7400

Mr. Ed. MIchaels - Engine builder
Rebuilt half a dozen dz engines - all were pressed pin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coast Motor supply
1-818-703-9049

Omar - Engine builder
Rebuilt half a dozen 1969 DZ - all were pressed pin design
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro Formance Specialties
1115 East Main Street
Rochester, New York
1-585-288-1499

Spoke to engine builder with many years of experience
Rebuilt several 1969 z28 302 engines - all were pressed pin design.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2
Thanks for that valuable document. I have forwarded that document to General Motors to be included in the next revision of the "AMA passenger car specifications".

3
Bill,
Good picture. But, it doesn't show that the connecting rod is a full floating rod.

4
69Z28-RS, jdv69z,

I agree post pictures of connecting rods that used full floating piston pins and pressed piston pins that came from the factory.

I believe TRW made the pistons for Chevrolet at that time. And yes, pistons are made to support both types of use, ie - full floating piston pin and pressed piston pin design.

I think that we all benefit to get the facts out as best as we can.

69er

5
jdv69z,

Thanks for you contribution. But, most/many pistons are manufactured with the grooves
in the piston boss to accommodate retainers. What really differentiates between full floating
piston pins and pressed piston pins is the connecting rod. If you have your connecting rods available please post pictures of the complete connecting rod and then a couple of close ups of the small end of the connecting rod.

69er

6
jdv69z,

I have no axes to grind with anyone, and my mind is always open to what ever the truth is. But, with truth comes evidence and not here say.  I was just looking through the "AMA passenger car specifications" that another member had posted and I was surprised to find the information regarding the 302's piston pins.
I remember seeing other posts before regarding this topic, so I thought it was fair to bring it up.

It's also not fair to a owner of a 1969 z28, who is passionate about the vehicle that he owns, and during a possible engine rebuild finds that the piston pins are pressed into the connecting rod. And then he wonders, maybe my car is not an original z28, its supposed to have full floating piston pins. We'll that's where evidence and truth comes in.

Its like the early 69 z28 had 1968 Camaro spoilers installed due to the 69 spoilers where not yet available. I remember reading some where on the CRG that members where replacing the short spoilers for long spoilers so that their z28 would be more authentic to to others, maybe even judges. And of course we now know that early 1969 z28's did come with the shorter spoiler.

So, let the truth out and be free and false facts.

z28z11,

Could you post any pictures you have of them, with the original machining. I so want to believe that the 69 z28 came with full floating piston pins. But, I have to see any evidence, here or trade shows.

69er

7
jdv69z,

Great comments as well. First I would like to say any competent engine re-builder should know the
difference between a pressed pin connecting rod and a full floating rod. Not acceptable that the re-builder did not know how to remove the piston pin. Makes me wonder how the rest of the rebuild went. I'm not sure if GM made a "pressed piston pin" and a "floating piston pin" design. Just to clarify, full floating piston pins move freely in the piston pin boss and in the small end of the connecting rod.

Since, you have your originals, if their not installed in your engine could you please post a picture of the connecting rod small end.

Picture worth a thousand words.

Hi 1968RSZ28,

Thanks for commenting. Yes, I'm aware of the "69 Camaro z/28 fact book". But, I supplied quotes from the manufacturer, "General Motors",  "The holy bible of z28 302 cid facts", their is no higher source. Book writers, bloggers etc. can write what they want, but I would like picture proof.

Let Jerry then post pictures of the connecting rods including close ups of the small end, untouched.

Again, picture worth a thousand words.

69er

8
z28z11,

Great comments.

The General Motors "AMA Passenger car specifications" has printed detailed engine information on the 69z28 302cid engine. Its clear it states that the piston pins were the "Locked in Rod" type. The Chevrolet chassis service manual (Page - specifications 7) also indicates that the 69 302  - Piston Pin: Fit in Rod had an interference fit of .0008" - .0016".

I have pointed out the General Motors documentation that reflects that the 1969 z29 302 had "Pressed Pin" connecting rods. I have read many comments from members indicating that the connecting rods in their 69 z28 were full floating. But, NEVER ONCE, has a member posted a picture of the connecting rod showing the small end with "Babbit" on it. A picture would even show the type of machining on the small end of the connecting rod.

I realize the GM parts books shows piston pin retainers to secure the piston pin in the piston boss, and thus float in the connecting rod. But, this could be no more that GM showing the parts availability so that full floating piston pins could be used for the racing circuit.

Just looking for proof of facts. A picture is worth a thousand words. Just want to see pictures of  "full floating"  connecting rods before they are modified.

As I mentioned previously, I had contacted CRG members whom claimed they were the original owners and were about to have their engines rebuilt. I requested that they post or send me pictures of the small end of the connecting rods during the rebuilding process. After that request, I never heard from them again.

In the past I contacted the person whom did the machining work for "Dean's 1969 Z28" the website address is, "http://69camaro.20m.com/index.html". The machine shop told me during the tear down, the connecting rods were pressed pin type and not full floating"

And as I said before, saying its a "Misprint" is not enough proof.

Can some one post pictures of these connecting rods. Please have a close up also of the small end.

69er

9
I was looking through the AMA passenger car specifications that someone posted in General Discussion and the GM Archives link. Page 94 indicates that the piston pins in the 302 v8 (z28 engine) were "Locked in rod". According to this GM document the piston pins were pressed into the rod, i.e. not "Full Floating" as the legendary rumor has been touted since the start of time.

If you look at this document it clearly shows that this line and column has the option to be "Locked in Rod", "in piston", "floating etc". 

Over the years I have contacted several CRG members that according to them were the original owners of a 1969 z28 and were in the process of having the engine rebuilt. I asked them to post or send me a picture of the connecting rod, especially the small end. I never heard from them again.

Maybe I'm misreading this document, but if anyone can comment on this I would appreciate it.

Saying that it's a misprint is not enough.

69er


10
Originality / Re: 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 14, 2016, 03:29:02 PM »
Before I order online I will look for a local show. thanks

11
Originality / Re: 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 13, 2016, 10:16:59 PM »
Thanks for the info. Someone like would know more about it. I will go ahead and order the line and move forward to other issues.

12
Originality / Re: 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 13, 2016, 09:47:56 PM »
Spoke to a GM technician. His comments were to try to get fuel line that is not bent for shipping. Bent for shipping may damage inner fuel line wall. You'll never know, you just end up compensating for the loss in fuel pressure some where else. I kind of agree, I don't think Jerry McNeish would install a fuel line that has been bent for shipping in one his race cars, but I don't know.

13
Originality / Re: 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 13, 2016, 02:10:39 AM »
I dont like bending fuel lines. After straightening a bend, on the outside it make appear okay, but there
may be a slight restriction on the inside. And restrictions may cause a fuel pressure drop. My fuel line is original, but has some problems. The metal is strong hard too believe that it can be bent and straightened without issues. Maybe replacements use metal that bend easier.

14
Originality / Re: 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 12, 2016, 03:37:48 PM »
Do they sell the fuel line already formed to shape?

Can this one piece line be installed with body on frame?

15
Originality / 1969 z28 fuel line
« on: March 12, 2016, 05:53:40 AM »
where can I buy a new one piece metal fuel line from fuel tank to under the hood. I understand that a rubber line  is used from fuel tank sender to metal fuel line and then another rubber line from fuel line under hood to fuel pump. Other wise the metal fuel line is one piece.

thanks for any advice

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