Messages

16

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: December 11, 2015, 05:17:37 PM »

Fully understanding and very thankful that this discussion can occur at all here. I will look for the photo. At the time that I saw it I should have bookmarked it as it was somewhat related to this discussion.

Steve

17

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: December 10, 2015, 08:17:40 PM »

Brief update.

My source never replied to repeated queries concerning the Prout Javelin headers. He has said in past blog posts that he was responsible for building the engines in '70.

But we are concerned with '69 as the engine pics are from Daytona in July of '69.

To recap, Ronnie Kaplan had dogleg port heads on the '69 TA Javelins. He apparently worked with David Potter, AMC's engine man. This would be several months before these heads showed up on production AMC's.

There are interesting photos afloat, including the headers on the Penske Javelins. Their headers don't look convential either. But, we are discussing why Prout used cast "spigots" coming out of the port and small header tubes that are are apparently welded/threaded into these castings. The question at the end of the day, is are these dogleg heads and exhaust?

Now is where the legwork comes in. Absent a telling qoute from a principal involved with designing and building these headers (Warren Prout) or someone associated, studying pictures and making comparisons to known items, as well as making dimensional comparisons will tell the story.

First, why the hybrid design? Simple, to continue exhaust port shaping outward past where the manifold joins the exhaust port. It is my understanding that even today it is next to impossble to stamp a steel tube in such a manner as to smoothly continue the exhaust port arc (a mirror) dimensionally . In simple words, you can't make a stamping hug the head like a casting can. Unless you sectioned and welded little pie slices together akin to two-stroke motorcycle GP practice from 35 years ago or as is evident by going on Ebay and looking at current Japanese aftermarket chamber makers for RZ350 Yamaha two-stroke twins, a steel header on a four-stroke is going to arc out 2 inches or so further from the exhaust port than a purpose made casting or billet formed exhaust "stub". That is because either steel tube or the stamping die can't conform to the tight arc that the optimally dimensioned casting/billet can. I am not a machinist or toolmaker so I take what they say as ground truth that the die or the tube would break in the process.

Why is this important? Because apparently the intake through to the exhaust "system should be reverse mirrors of each other, and smooth, optimally shaped flow at velocity is key. Velocity being the operative term. All those years ago Prout figured out that velocity was the name of the game (notwithstanding that the crossram intake wasn't optimal in that regard, at least not below "mid-range". Nevertheless, in '69 the crossram must have been thought to be optimal and Prout concntrated on the exhaust. Hence the small tubes. Why not just a small tube conventional header? Because conventional design small tube headers give up power up top.However, an unconventional exhaust can combine velocity and flow shape together to deliver timed volume to maintain power while delivering responsiveness. Perfect for coming off slower corners or after braking.

So, does using a cast flange mean that the head or the exhaust are dogleg port? No, it's either rectangular or dogleg. The famous "trapezoid" exhaust didn't show up until later on Penske/Traco/Nascar engines. That is entirely another discussion. For this discussion, casting clues(heads), and bolt dimensions (exhaust) will have to tell the story.

Stay tuned for results from comparing casting features of the heads and after doing some math.

Steve

18

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: November 02, 2015, 06:12:19 AM »

I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.

klvn8r

I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob

Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one

The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.

Steve

Since posting this other information has come to light, yet not all the concrete facts are together. I would like to wait until all the information that is going to come in does, before revealing the indivdual points and specific references. I do have a back-up photo study comparason between rectangular port manifolds and dogleg port manifolds, but prefer to hold off in the menawhile until some other loose ends come together.

One teaser is that Warren Prout was the fabricator of the Paschal Javelin and he also made the headers with the cast iron/cast steel manifold "spigots", Kaplan was not connected to that Javelin build.

That's is it for now. I'm chasing down a former member of Prout's crew for input and following up on some parallel research with another individual. More to come...


Steve

19

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: October 13, 2015, 03:45:16 PM »

Before posting links, phots, and discussion as a group, which I'm still working on, one small correction is in order. Martin and White were Kaplan's drivers for Nascar GT. Tullius was under the Hurst banner. I'll go into all that as part of the main body of work later.

Steve

20

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Dick Lang Page

« on: October 13, 2015, 06:27:11 AM »

YW

21

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Roy Woods Racing, California Trans-Am racers

« on: October 13, 2015, 06:26:28 AM »

Very glad to hear that you are enjoying the photos. That's why I'm doing this and why others share.

...

Adrian, MI shop used by the team during the season. Note the Matador wagon team car which says Roy Woods Racing on the door.

Photo by Ken Ulrich
...
From the Bryar Trans-Am. Not sure if it's a picture of the girl, the Pinto or the RWR wagon. 

Photo by Ken Ulrich

One minor correction is that the team station wagon is an Ambassador instead of Matador. Easiest way to tell from the angle that it is shot in the top photo is the chrome vertical edge of the front bumper is at the bottom of the fender front. A Matador had a wrap-around grill/bumper and from this angle the outer edge would be at the top of the front fender. Also the Ambo has a tall blunt fender front edge whereas the Mat is tapered.

Steve

22

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: October 13, 2015, 05:47:45 AM »

My pleasure.

S

23

Trans-Am Camaros / Javelin engine and dogleg head development (research topic)

« on: October 12, 2015, 08:42:39 PM »

I wonder, if perhaps, the 'goofy' chassis (obviously not AMC) forced the homemade headers or if they are 'pre-production' dog leg heads.

klvn8r

I'm not sure I'm following the dog leg head assumption. After blowing up the posted photos, I can't see anything definitive that one can say they are dog legs. There is tremendous speculation when it comes to these vintage AMC's, I hate to see it continually promoted. Can you please clarify?
Thanks,
Bob

Recent information is, including statements from David Tom that Kaplan had a hand in at least the one Nascar Javelin, with his part time driver, Tullius, would very highly suggest that the weird cast iron appearing "boxes" coming out odf the head port is for a dogleg exhaust. Apart from whatever Kaplan used for headers on the '69 TA cars(any close-up shots of the then used headers?), he did develop the dogleg ports, I believe, in conjunction with AMC's engine designer ( at this time a consultant or part-time employee?), Dave Potter, for the '69 season. It's reasonable to put together the reasons why, aside from sealing concerns in long, flat-out roundy-round races that:
1) there were several off-the-shelf headers available in '69 for regular production-based rectangular port heads (and had been since at least 1967) rendering hybrid headers as completely unnecessary if the ports were rectangular
2) whereas the Hurst developed 305 c.i. Paschal Javelin may or may not have had Kaplan's help or influence, there is no suggestion that the 5.0 liter engine would have used the Crane developed SS/AMX heads that were rectangular port with oversize 2.08/1.74 valves even though the Nascar engines were based on the large bore (but not as large as the 390, on which the Crane heads were mounted with a nominal .080 larger bore) 343 block
3) the dogleg heads were homologated for TA, and more important, by the AMA
4) see #1 Kaplan did take a part in the build of at least one

The above is based on more researchhaving commenced since this thread started and are talking points until I can gather up the disparate bits of information gleaned from various sources and the photographic evidence.

Steve

24

Trans-Am Camaros / Dick Lang Page

« on: October 12, 2015, 03:23:16 PM »

I don't know if this link with pictures are already posted here:
http://dicklang.blogspot.com/2008/05/1969-wolverine-4-hour.html


Steve

25

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: R.I.P --- Dick Guldstrand 1927-2015

« on: September 06, 2015, 04:40:04 PM »

Very depressing.

Steve

26

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: New Zealand/Australian Camaros And Firebirds

« on: July 31, 2015, 05:14:52 AM »

Thanks.

Steve

27

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: New Zealand/Australian Camaros And Firebirds

« on: July 28, 2015, 10:22:35 PM »

One of the lesser known down-under racing Camaros. This is the John Kay/Peter Finch 'Indy Speed Shop' Camaro that raced in Australia, and which first appeared around 1973/74.

For 1973, CAMS (the Australian motorsport governing body) massively changed the two main sedan racing categories, creating Group C for more production based cars, and Sports Sedan for more heavily modified cars. All the existing Camaros, Mustangs etc already racing in Australia were forced to compete as Sports Sedans from 1973.

The Indy Speed Shop Camaro never really achieved too much against the more modified Sports Sedans, being too heavy and not purpose built to the rules, but was still a cool addition to the ranks, and a nice looking car. It still exists, albeit, in much modified condition to that pictured.

Photo courtesy John Brewer.

Are there any sites or more information on this Camaro in its as pictured configuration?

Thanks.

Steve

28

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Wheels used on Trans-Am Camaros

« on: July 28, 2015, 04:05:02 AM »

Small correction: ROH wheels on Moffat's Mustang.

Steve

29

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Wheels used on Trans-Am Camaros

« on: July 27, 2015, 04:45:59 PM »

Javelin pics originally in 'Collectible Automobile':
http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/articles/cajav20.jpg
http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/articles/cajav21.jpg

Three Moffat pics on this page:
http://www.planetsoarer.com/fats/fats.htm


Steve

30

Trans-Am Camaros / Re: Wheels used on Trans-Am Camaros

« on: July 27, 2015, 04:35:12 PM »

Did any Camaros use deep dish mags like the RORs on Moffat's Mustang or the mystery mags on subsequent private ownership pictures of Donohue's Javelin?

Steve