CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: 69Z28-RS on May 29, 2012, 01:33:56 AM
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I'm slowly taking apart, cleaning, etc.. parts from my '69 z28/RS which has been *resting* in my basement garage for a bit over 32 yrs. I'm currently working front and rear suspensions/brakes/etc; the current topic is brakes. My car has the orig hoses; I rebult the brakes in the late '70's, and they worked fine then, when parked, and work now, but with 43 yr old hoses, I suspect it would be good to replace them. I looked at the replacement hoses sold by Rick's this weekend, and they have steel fittings on the end (brass fittings on the originals); I just made the rounds of several parts houses, and none of them even list fronts for the '69, but a couple had a 'Wagner' part for the rear one which *appeared* mostly correct, but with the additional crimps. I also just searched for, and read the historical posts re brake hoses and didn't get much other than the change in 'crimping' from the original crimp to the later double crimp mandated for safety.
My plan was to flush the steel lines with alcohol, and rebuild the calipers and cylinders with silicone fluid; replace the hoses. I've a couple of questions:
1) For my car, which I hope to show in 'survivor category', should I reuse my original hoses? I'm only considering this due to the non-availability of correct-appearing new hoses. If you fellas recommend I replace the original hoses, who sells the *best* alternative for front and rear hoses?
2) have any of you had your original calipers (single piston) resleeved with stainless? If so, whom do you recommend for this? I want to be sure I have my original calipers returned to me.
Gary 69Z280RS
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If showing in survivor class you need to use the original. You get zero points for replacement or reproduction parts. Even your original parts are scored according to condition.
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1) For my car, which I hope to show in 'survivor category', should I reuse my original hoses?
Do as you like, but I'd never take a chance on 43-year-old brake hoses - they're a major safety item, and a failure could get you killed. NCRS approaches this specific issue in Corvette Flight Judging with either no deduction or just a minor deduction due to the safety concern. In NCRS Star/Bowtie judging, which is purely absolute originality, with no "condition" deductions (the car doesn't even have to run), replacement brake hoses will get a deduction, but that alone won't fail the Chassis category.
If you're going to DRIVE the car, you're taking your life (and the lives of others) in your hands by using original brake hoses.
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If showing in survivor class you need to use the original. You get zero points for replacement or reproduction parts. Even your original parts are scored according to condition.
Hi Danny, that is correct , however as you know our Vintage Certification program scores as follows;
90% of score is based on originality
10% of your score is based on preservation/condition.
As has been stated, replacing the originals brake hoses with reproduction is recommended, unless you don't intend on driving your car. In addition our program will award points (with a deduction) if you bring the original parts you've taken off (such as brake hoses). I have a few cars that are basically all original including tires, and I wouldn't drive on those tires except for around the block. As John Z. stated, safety should come first.
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All of you fellas are correct :), but of course safety IS the most important thing, as John points out so clearly.
Steve: Given that I can clean/bag the original hoses, does that discount 'scoring' on the replacement hoses? If not, what is your recommended source for hoses? The Rick's repro/replacement has steel fittings (rather than brass); Is there a better source? and what about sleeving the calipers/cylinders with SS (or brass). Does that cause a deduction? Does silicone fluid cause a deduction? Do the judges even look at such things?
Any information appreciated to make my decisions a bit quicker/easier.. :)
Gary / 69Z28-RS
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I have rebuilt both and it's impossible to see the SS inserts on either the M/C or calipers when installed.
Mike
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Thanks Mike,
I've used a couple or three companies before for sleeving various Corvette calipers and M/C, but is there a preferred company to sleeve/rebuild the single piston calipers for the Camaro?
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Hi Gary,
I had my 4 piston calipers sleeved with SS inserts in 1987 and still holding well though I did install new rubber seals recently just for the sake of it.
I had a local shop by me called Apple Hydraulics ( http://www.applehydraulics.com/brakes.htm ) install a brass sleeve for $95. They do brass and SS but I opted for brass to save some $$$$.
They do complete rebuilds or just install a sleeve and you rebuild it. I went for option 2 and got the rebuilding kit locally at LI Corvettes ($28) and saved quite a bit ( over $100 total ) doing the rebuild myself.
Mike
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Gary, On the single piston calipers the internal bore of the caliper is not as critical as to pits because it does not have to seal against the piston.The outside surface of the piston seals against the seal so that surface is critical. The piston slides in & out on a stationary outer seal. Hope that makes sense.
I bought a couple sets of incorrect hoses before I came across these on EBay. They were the closest to my original hoses. Tommy, nice guy & knowledgeable.
www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CAMARO-FIREBIRD-TRANS-AM-NOVA-DISC-BRAKE-HOSES-69-Z28-/130689673166
George.
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These are the ones I bought too.
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Thanks for the information George .. and Sixtynine... Those certainly appear to be more accurate (but with the additional crimps).. and more expensive. :) I'll consider them strongly.
thanks! :)
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Brought this back to life. Who currently sells the most accurate brake hoses? Thanks in advance.
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I bought a set from directly from Tommy Mathison back in April of 2014. Same as NoYenko (George) posted above. The hose markings looked exact compared to my worn originals.
Not sure if its OK to post his email address on this site. I can send you a PM with his contact info if you are interested.
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Thanks for the information George .. and Sixtynine... Those certainly appear to be more accurate (but with the additional crimps).. and more expensive. :) I'll consider them strongly.
thanks! :)
I had a set of NOS brake lines Gary that looked the part except for double crimps and had them stenciled as George showed for our restoration. Just another option if you have some laying around....
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Thanks for the information George .. and Sixtynine... Those certainly appear to be more accurate (but with the additional crimps).. and more expensive. :) I'll consider them strongly.
thanks! :)
I had a set of NOS brake lines Gary that looked the part except for double crimps and had them stenciled as George showed for our restoration. Just another option if you have some laying around....
Do you have photos of that stenciling, chick? Who did/does the stenciling for such items?
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Hans L please pm me. Thanks.
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I bought two fronts from NAPA. They were really close to the originals (both originals failed within weeks of each other - plugged closed).
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What caused that to happen Kurt?
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Maybe the fluid had some sort of a content that broke down the rubber. How could this be.. ? They KNOW what's out there before they develop/design parts.
Maybe take one and fillet it like a fish and inspect the interior. Scratch the inside wall and see if it's breaking down?.. D
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I bought two fronts from NAPA. They were really close to the originals (both originals failed within weeks of each other - plugged closed).
I bought a complete set (front and rear) from Napa as well, and they do appear to look very close to the originals that are still on my car. I think they'll work just fine. Even though the brakes still work, I'm not even going to think of attempting to drive it on those original hoses.
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I bought two fronts from NAPA. They were really close to the originals (both originals failed within weeks of each other - plugged closed).
Same thing happened to my fronts when I went to bleed them before I started my resto.
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Collapsed brake hoses are common, and often overlooked as a source of problems.
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Are you fellas speaking of OLD brake hoses? or NEW? I understood Kurt to say he had that problem with new brake hoses... I assume you aren't speaking of NEW (but maybe 40 yr old stock) brake hoses....?
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Are you fellas speaking of OLD brake hoses? or NEW? I understood Kurt to say he had that problem with new brake hoses... I assume you aren't speaking of NEW (but maybe 40 yr old stock) brake hoses....?
Yes Gary. OE brake hoses were what failed.
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Are you fellas speaking of OLD brake hoses? or NEW? I understood Kurt to say he had that problem with new brake hoses... I assume you aren't speaking of NEW (but maybe 40 yr old stock) brake hoses....?
Yes Gary. OE brake hoses were what failed.
Going back and reading Kurts post.. where he stated... "I bought two fronts from NAPA. They were really close to the originals (both originals failed within weeks of each other - plugged closed)."... I guess I read it too fast and thought he said that the new ones failed.... rereading.. it's more clear that he bought NEW ones BECAUSE the old/originals failed.. (which makes a lot more sense).. Sorry for my misunderstanding!
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For reference, here's what the original brake hoses look like from my 04B Van Nuys Built Z:
Sub Frame Fitting - note the crimping style is different than current DOT requirements:
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7066_zpste9hqmor.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7066_zpste9hqmor.jpg.html)
Caliper Block Fitting - again crimping style differs from current DOT required hoses:
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7067_zpsws7o74va.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7067_zpsws7o74va.jpg.html)
Note the lettering/markings on the hose line in red font:
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7068_zpsha9rzota.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7068_zpsha9rzota.jpg.html)
Note the faint red stripe along the other side of this brake hose:
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7069_zpsrqbkjqw8.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_7069_zpsrqbkjqw8.jpg.html)
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Reproduction hose installed - note hose crimping styles differ from originals.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_6990_zpsmlratey6.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/Fuel%20and%20Brake%20Line%20Clips/IMG_6990_zpsmlratey6.jpg.html)
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I replaced my originals a year or two ago when I went thru my brake system (my originals were actually in a bit better condition than yours Hans!).. :) .. but my car had been stored in my garage since 1980.
Anyway, 1969 originals were 'single crimped' whereas newer (current) safety requirements require 'double crimping' on the ends, so your new 'reproduction' hoses may have reproduction markings, but will have double crimped ends (for safety). I bought new hoses, but not the expensive reproductions, as I can't see that sort of expense simply to maintain a vehicle in functional order (my car is unrestored).
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I replaced my originals a year or two ago when I went thru my brake system (my originals were actually in a bit better condition than yours Hans!).. :) .. but my car had been stored in my garage since 1980.
Anyway, 1969 originals were 'single crimped' whereas newer (current) safety requirements require 'double crimping' on the ends, so your new 'reproduction' hoses may have reproduction markings, but will have double crimped ends (for safety). I bought new hoses, but not the expensive reproductions, as I can't see that sort of expense simply to maintain a vehicle in functional order (my car is unrestored).
Makes total sense. You can see why I didn't re-use the ones on my car!
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Thanks for the information George .. and Sixtynine... Those certainly appear to be more accurate (but with the additional crimps).. and more expensive. :) I'll consider them strongly.
thanks! :)
I had a set of NOS brake lines Gary that looked the part except for double crimps and had them stenciled as George showed for our restoration. Just another option if you have some laying around....
Do you have photos of that stenciling, chick? Who did/does the stenciling for such items?
Yes I do in my build thread somewhere but will check and post a picture. The guy that did mine was the same guy who George bought his hoses from as he's from IL and he used to sell them on ebay. I contacted him and he agreed to stencil my hoses I sent him.
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Thanks Chick... :)
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Here you go Gary!
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/Stenciled%20NOS%20brake%20lines_zpsdysnhh8l.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/Stenciled%20NOS%20brake%20lines_zpsdysnhh8l.jpg.html)
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chick, do believe some of that is date code?
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chick, do believe some of that is date code?
Probably correct but what alternative do you have and how many know exactly what the date code is. My original rear brake hose is on our 68Z restoration and the picture is of the newly stenciled new one to be swapped out later for road service if it happens but the point in all of this is the front NOS service replacements I had stenciled look the part now. :)
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Looks like an easy enough stamp(s) to get made up at places like Staples.
Mike
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Looks like an easy enough stamp(s) to get made up at places like Staples.
Mike
Stamp for the long lines on the back side as well Mike? Be difficult to line a bunch of stamps to look correct I'd think but let us know how you make out. Here is my rear original line.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6057_zpsryfvpxio.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6057_zpsryfvpxio.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6150_zpsmj8kudmm.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6150_zpsmj8kudmm.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6058_zpskzkmfela.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6058_zpskzkmfela.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6055_zpsbzvijj81.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6055_zpsbzvijj81.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6056_zpssknqmxui.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_6056_zpssknqmxui.jpg.html)
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Gary one helpful thing may be to look closely at Chicks friend Skips car and the hose he has on his has a different date. Since it is a 09D car I would think it would be the best example of what your car would have had.
Maybe Chick can provide a better pic that shows all of the stamp of Skips hose?
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You're probably correct, Austin, re appropriate dates, although I've never read anything about 'date codes' on brake hoses (maybe it's out there and I'm not recalling or haven't seen it).
I don't think I'm going to bother with 'date coding' new but obviously NON-original hoses (double crimping precludes them from being original), and I certainly wouldn't pay the 'several hundred $$' for such a reproduction hose.
I have my original hoses 'bagged up' and will probably take them whenever I get my car to the point of showing it in an unrestored/survivor type of judging, but IMO going to such extreme efforts or paying such exorbitant $$ for an obviously non-original reproduction?? part doesn't make sense when a quick look at the double crimping shows it is NOT original... but I wouldn't pay that much for properly dated single crimp NOS hoses either.. :) .. but that's just me. I LIKE original cars and original parts for what they are, but when it comes to reproduction parts (for looks?).. I'm not a fan.
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You're probably correct, Austin, re appropriate dates, although I've never read anything about 'date codes' on brake hoses (maybe it's out there and I'm not recalling or haven't seen it).
I don't think I'm going to bother with 'date coding' new but obviously NON-original hoses (double crimping precludes them from being original), and I certainly wouldn't pay the 'several hundred $$' for such a reproduction hose.
I have my original hoses 'bagged up' and will probably take them whenever I get my car to the point of showing it in an unrestored/survivor type of judging, but IMO going to such extreme efforts or paying such exorbitant $$ for an obviously non-original reproduction?? part doesn't make sense when a quick look at the double crimping shows it is NOT original... but I wouldn't pay that much for properly dated single crimp NOS hoses either.. :) .. but that's just me. I LIKE original cars and original parts for what they are, but when it comes to reproduction parts (for looks?).. I'm not a fan.
Agree Gary on date codes and I did research on the subject years ago and came up with nothing similar to Firestone Tires. But maybe I missed something. Had to laugh about the " when it comes to reproduction parts (for looks?).. I'm not a fan" cause you asked me to post a picture of mine that your not a fan of. :)
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Chick you got me laughing with that one..... ;D
I think that orange paint is going to his brain....
I can see where Gary is coming from though, it is always nice to see the other side of the fence, just to know what you are missing out on.
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So are they date coded or are they not? It would be interesting to find a correlation between other cars built in the same time frame if you could find enough examples. I have the originals on mine and the stampings are legible. My wife enjoys dealing with that kind of stuff, I may look into copying the stamps on my old hoses to duplicate on the new ones just for giggles when I get to that point.
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Your stenciling looked great chick... was curious who did it for you.. :) and for your restoration, it's great. :)
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What does the process run to have them stenciled ?
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What does the process run to have them stenciled ?
To be honest I do not remember as it was done probably 4 years ago and have not seen the guy advertise on ebay for a long time. Believe his name was Tommy and the same guy George (NoYenko) purchased his lines from. He was selling them finished and I just emailed him if he would stencil mine which he did. He was also selling some things on Team Camaro after he stopped selling on ebay.
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What does the process run to have them stenciled ?
To be honest I do not remember as it was done probably 4 years ago and have not seen the guy advertise on ebay for a long time. Believe his name was Tommy and the same guy George (NoYenko) purchased his lines from. He was selling them finished and I just emailed him if he would stencil mine which he did. He was also selling some things on Team Camaro after he stopped selling on ebay.
When he was advertising on ebay, the stamped hoses were priced at $300-$400 IIRC.... (too rich for my blood at the time.. and now... :)
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When he was advertising on ebay, the stamped hoses were priced at $300-$400 IIRC.... (too rich for my blood at the time.. and now... :)
I paid nowhere near those amounts. :)
His name is Tommy Mathison. I have his contact info if anyone needs it, but no idea if he still makes them. I discussed re-stenciling mine as well with Tommy, but I think they are too far gone.
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From my observations they appear to be date codes as well, the same with the GM FUEL lines (believe the date format is the same 10318 on the fuel hose car was 12C)
They were coded using a soft rubber wheel which continuously encoded it as it was being made or processed, from my working in the MRO industry 15 years ago and selling Weatherhead hoses & fittings the long stripe was opposite the numbering and was to ensure it was not being twisted during manufacturing of the individual hose assemblies.
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Reviving this topic for a question. Does anyone happen to know the correct font and size and ink-paint used for the stenciling?
thanks.
Dave
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I've pretty much determined that the font is a Arial Rounded at 18 point.
Does anyone have any clues on the stencil? I have access to a vinyl signcutting machine but what type of material to use?
Maybe this?
https://www.amazon.com/HTVRONT-Adhesive-Silhouette-Machine%EF%BC%8CStencil-Decoration/dp/B08QYWY7JN/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=adhesive+vinyl+stencil+release+liner&qid=1642785782&s=arts-crafts&sr=1-5
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Here is a sample of some NOS front banjo hoses and rear end hoses with the block.
Some have white some have orange lettering. All of the letters and numbers are 1/4" tall.
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Thanks very much for the reply, James.
18 point is pretty close to 1/4" so at least I think have that right.
I was hoping for some info on the best way to make the stencil itself. Using a sign cutter with the vinyl material and PC software. I've watched a few Youtube videos and I think I have the overall process down, just was looking for some hints on the details. Things like the materials used etc. The small characters and the "weeding" seems the most difficult.
I did finally I think decipher the date code scheme. I believe it goes like this:
Date code is in my case "B 11 03 0" which is March 11, 1970 second shift of the form working shift(letter, 2nd=B), day of month(2 digits=11), month (2 digits=03) and last number of year (1970=0)
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Use a stencil cutter and the sticker material as thin as you feel you need.
Cut stencil from sticker material .
Apply transfer paper to the face of complete stencil
Flip over the stencil so it is now face down
remove sticker back
Pull the cut characters from the stencil using a dental pick
Next position the stencil on the hose and press it firmly in place
Remove the transfer paper from the face, pulling back against it's self slowly-
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Thanks again, James.
That's the procedure I'm going to do. Should be fun.