CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: jdv69z on May 25, 2012, 01:24:33 PM
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I'm curious as to how many of the 67-69 Z/28's out there still have their original drive train, particularly the original engine. Just a general feel. Would it be half? Less than that? More?
As many cars as Jerry Mac has authenticated, I would think he would have a pretty good idea.
Jimmy V.
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I would guess less than 10%. Every Z that I knew of were run hard.
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Probably less than 10% of the Camaros carrying Z28 emblems *ever* had a 302... :)
of those that did, it would be a small percentage.. I would have guessed less than 25%, but couldn't argue with Steve's 10% guess....
Gary / 69Z28-RS
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Jimmy an interesting question. I would agree the number is likely low as these cars were designed to run....
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Also, Camaros have been a big part of the modified market for some time now. Unfortunately, not everyone held onto original drivetrains.
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I think we put to much of a premium on (Numbers Matching). Correct dated parts are correct parts! Lots of these cars now have correct motors, there just out of someone Else's car. What would the hobby be ,if most cars have matching numbers?
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On the flip side of the coin I thought this is what it's all about. Preservation of the cars with originality. Without the original parts it's just another car and you could actually build it out of a junk yard.
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I know of "No Car " this old ,that has "All"of it's original parts. If you bought the car brand new and parked it for 40 years, I would say yes. Parts must come from other cars (junk yards, nos,etc.) Once an original drive train is gone, and you can't find it, your only legal option is from another car! A car can have (Matching Numbers) "VIN", and still have many wrong components.
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You are correct. I was only referring to your previous post about putting a premium on cars with original Numbers Matching drive trains. If I want a Cadillac motor I'll buy a Cadillac. I will walk past a dozen 100 thousand dollar "Camaros" to look at a nice survivor or a well done restored car.
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I agree, to me the original cars are very cool to look at, and to me it doesn't matter if its a six cylinder or V8, Mustang or Camaro. Seeing the original patina and preservation of a classic, is a little special. I still enjoy restored cars, but the survivors and drivers are what I appreciate. There will always be trailer queens out there, and they are part of the hobby as well.....
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I agree, to me the original cars are very cool to look at, and to me it doesn't matter if its a six cylinder or V8, Mustang or Camaro. Seeing the original patina and preservation of a classic, is a little special. I still enjoy restored cars, but the survivors and drivers are what I appreciate. There will always be trailer queens out there, and they are part of the hobby as well.....
I agree entirely. I'm a 'stock' guy. When at a car show and walking towards a car that looks stock on the outside and if I see an aftermarket air cleaner when getting closer, I'll continue to walk past it. But if it passes the air cleaner housing test, then I'll stop and give it a long study no matter what brand or model as long as it is stock.
Mike
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Ditto that Mike, I think a numbers matching drivetrain is a bit more special it's that simple.
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Most every one I see advertised for sale either says "matching number drive train" or "original drive train". Either the very few actual original drive train cars are the ones being offered for sale, or there is a whole lot of misleading advertising going on. I'm assuming most of these cars are not exactly being represented accurately.
Jimmy V.
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I know where your coming from Jimmy. I get so tired of seeing ad's that state: Numbers Matching, Numbers Correct, Correct Drive-train, Date Coded Drive-train. Everyone tries to put there spin on it.
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I think 10% is a little high. Out of all the 60,s muscle cars I have had all the way back to the seventies, I don,t think I have ever owned an original drivetrain car. Junk yard drivetrains were the way to go back then.
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I have been in the hobby for over 40 years. I love cars! Early on, only the corvette guys were concerned about matching numbers. Today, if you have a "Matching Numbers Car", you are either Very Lucky, Wealthy, or Old Enough! Now people say "My car was born with". Things have gotten out of hand. Really, isn't a car a collection of parts, put together on an assembly, to be sold for ones personal transportation!
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That 10% number may be about right.
When I looked to buy a 69 Indy Pace car, I looked for about a year and looked at at least 20-25 advertisements in Hemmings, Autotrader, and other online sources, (ebay was not really established for selling cars at the time I bought my car). Of all the cars I looked into, only about 3 or 4 of them still had the numbers matching motor. Many had CE replacement motors or "correct" motors, while the majority had just any old chevy SB in them. The ones that did have the numbers matching drivetrains were rust boxes or really beat up. Mine was the only pace car that still had the original drivetrain from the factory and the original sheetmetal (qtrs, floors, trunk, etc.) with almost no rust. Also, this was back in 1999 before the muscle car craze and the staggering amount of fraud that exist today.
Even today I still checkout all the 69 Camaro pace car ads, ebay, and Barret Jackson, and it is quite difficult to find these cars with the original drivetrains in them. I guess these cars were not bought with the notion of keeping them stock and instead were used and abused and if the motor or tranny went...pop in another, no big deal. I bet the original buyers of the first gen Camaros had no idea of what these cars would become 35 or more years later.
So, if you have a numbers car, appreciate it and take care of it.
So, 10% seems about right as far as
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I have been in the hobby for over 40 years. I love cars! Early on, only the corvette guys were concerned about matching numbers. Today, if you have a "Matching Numbers Car", you are either Very Lucky, Wealthy, or Old Enough! Now people say "My car was born with". Things have gotten out of hand. Really, isn't a car a collection of parts, put together on an assembly, to be sold for ones personal transportation!
I agree with you things have gotten out of hand. The "born with" quotes are kind of annoying,I can only speak for myslf but my car was BUILT not born!
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The terminology is a bit annoying, after reading so many ads it is interesting how many ways guys will skirt around the issue of the original drive train. I have heard it described many ways, and still find myself reading between the lines to decipher if the car is original or not. Then if your unsure you can ask Kurt, he will tell you his opinion, based on other stamps, but it seems the verification process is still on shaky ground. Different fonts and styles of stamps, plus the person doing the stamping trying to get the stamp strait enough to be legible. I am probably one of the younger guys on this board but when time catches up to these guys that authenticate the cars, Jerry, Kurt , Camaro national judges, etc, if this information is not passed on, then that 10% figure will probably jump up to about 99% with the re-stamps out there. I am not looking forward to anybody taking a dirt nap, just looking into the future and preservation of the hobby, and hoping the information and knowledge doesn't die with them or there hard drive.
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Well I know of at least 3 that dont have their motors 2 cars ,That I know of and I have an original 69 DZ 302 from air cleaner to starter. The number s are on the bell housing flange but cant make them out ...Deck stamp is V0130DZ
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Very interesting discussion. I was in my late teens, early 20's when the muscle cars hit the streets. At the time I had a 65 GTO, and two of my buddies had Camaros. A 68 SS 350, and a 69 SS 396. If anyone's car blew a trans or motor it was replaced with OME or a quick trip to a junkyard. Many times somebody new somebody that had factory parts in their garage because they swapped out the original manifold, carb, or rear end for a piece that they thought would be cool to run. That's just what happened back then, as is still in effect with the modified guys.
I'm very lucky to have found a 68 RS SS 350 4spd with the original (but rebuilt w/more HP) engine and drivetrain. I also have aftermarket wheels on the car and that's the way I like it. I really like looking at the all original, unrestored cars at shows. But, I equally enjoy talking and hanging out with people that have Camaros, like mine.
I did the all stock, all original equipment for many years with other clubs. I deeply respect the effort and money put into the stock class cars. However, when applied to the muscle car era, you have to give us a break and also consider the reality of the times back then. I'd guess that way less than 10% of all muscle cars survived to today with their original equipment. (my original M21 was blown and replaced with another)