CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: BlackoutSteve on February 17, 2012, 08:11:48 AM

Title: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BlackoutSteve on February 17, 2012, 08:11:48 AM
There is more to this that I am unable to elaborate on yet, but have a look at these pictures.
The car is currently up for sale as a "matching numbers".
Can we crack 10 faults? ;D




It appears that some effort went into the stamping, but zero effort went into choosing the "right numbers".  ???
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: Mike S on February 17, 2012, 01:44:51 PM
 I'm not too up on 1969 Camaro's so I can't find 10 things  ;D  but what little I did find in the few minutes before heading to work are:
Block casting is a 427 ci. On CRG a 427 would be a COPO
The ML would indicate a COPO 9560 ZL1 aluminum engine vs. a COPO 9561 iron block. This block is iron
I'm guessing that the ZL-1 block should be 3946052?
The VIN does not appear on the CRG COPO listing
The engine code has a tilted numeric 1 (the second in the sequence)
The engine code is using numeric 1 in place of the letter I (but that may be OK if I and 1's are used interchangeably)
The engine code has 8 characters instead of the 7 I normally see on BB pads
Were ZL1 engines supposed to painted black?

That's all I can quickly come up with.
Gotta head to work!
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: srode on February 17, 2012, 02:02:30 PM
I don't think thre should be a VIN stamp on that block in that location considering the build date indicated by the VIN.  It should be down by the oil filter on the cast part of the block. Thats 8, need 2 more.
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: william on February 17, 2012, 02:53:36 PM
Iron 427 block casting #3955270 was only used for a few months in very early production '69 full-size and Corvettes. COPO 9561 [L72] Camaros used casting #3963512 stamped MN for 4-speed and MO for auto. None of these are known to have the VIN stamp on the pad.

The VIN indicates the car was built during the 4th week of Sep '69. The engine is dated Oct 17; would have to be '68.

Whoever did this managed to use an incorrect block casting, stamped with an incorrect code, with an incorrectly located VIN stamping.
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: Mike S on February 17, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
This is fun in a way...  :D
Here is another one when digging deeper...
The VIN range for this car is around August 1969 per CRG
The block assembly date of 0101 (what the heck is that number 7 doing here!?) is Jan 1969. IMO, way too early for any COPO car.

But hey....afterall it is a 'number matching' car!
Then again, I have 'matching' features of Tom have seen it before....2 eyes, 2 ears, 1 nose and mouth.  ;D

Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BlackoutSteve on February 17, 2012, 09:43:09 PM
My list.
1. "ML" on wrong block material.
2. "ML" on wrong cast number.
3. "ML" is a ZL1 and the VIN is not any of the ZL1s.
4. "M" font incorrect. Others too?
5. Engine code has one too many digits.
6. Engine date different to that casting's date.
7. The casting number of 3955270 was never in Camaros
8. Engine build date code 21? months prior to vehicle's build date.
9. 9N687XXX VIN should be at the oil filter boss and not on the pad
10. "1"s are used instead of "I"s. "1"s are rare or non existant.
11. One of the "I"s is tilted.
12. ....

If someone did this for stupid fun, and said "Hey, I changed the numbers" (which apparently is what was said in the ebay sale of this car in '08"), that would be, well, up to them. But, the current seller is insisting that this car is a genuine matching numbers car and the potential buyer that I'm helping is being told by the seller than I'm full of sh!t, and money has become involved.
So, I have no issue tearing this car and the seller to shreads for not doing some extremely basic research.
What's more, the seller says this car is possibly a COPO or Yenko, yet the price reflects a regular Camaro.. So he damn-well knows..

After all, I bought a replacement trim tag for my car after damaging the original, and had the paint and trim codes changed. What's more, I even spent $10K having the actual paint and trim changed too! But that's deliberately on the internet and all the numbers-keeping-gurus are aware of it.
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: Mike S on February 17, 2012, 10:02:19 PM
Hi Steve,

4. "M" font incorrect. Others too?

I'm not sure if the M is wrong though in the posted picture I agree it just doesn't look right.
I have seen 3 types of M fonts on BB pads. Some with the middle extended to the bottom and others 1/2 way down.
The 3rd is what visually looks like a an ever so slightly wider character width size for both type of M's.
My feeling is that the supplier of the font stamps may vary?

The 8 digit engine stamp is a dead give away.
Ask the seller to come to this group to try to justify the originality or the buyer to warn him/her.

My hats off to you for alerting the potential buyer of this fake!

Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BillOhio on February 18, 2012, 12:12:58 AM
I saw something about as bad. I was high bidder and went to get the car, 69 z. The car was first week of june, block was first casting, september of 68. Stamped on pad so that was wrong. The block had to be stamped with the head off, the numbers were practically under the head. Guy swore it was right block. I am not sure if he did it or person that sold it to him.  engine wasnt in it when he bought it and he had it assembled. He was ok about me not taking it.. Week later guy paid 32k for it. Was an x77, but not right
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: tmodel66 on February 18, 2012, 12:28:24 AM
Can you give us a link to see the rest of it?
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BlackoutSteve on February 18, 2012, 02:55:28 AM
Can you give us a link to see the rest of it?

More info to follow, but not just now.. :)
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: KurtS on February 18, 2012, 08:07:09 AM

It was a yellow Yenko clone many years ago. 59-S tag.
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BlackoutSteve on February 19, 2012, 02:35:54 AM
Still is yellow but now without the Yenko decals.

Hmm, Frost Green with a green vynil top.. Thanks.
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: KurtS on February 19, 2012, 03:13:32 AM
Here's some info and pics from 2008
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: BlackoutSteve on February 19, 2012, 05:09:28 AM
Yes, I found that link early on and it was emailed to the seller. He is yet to reply.. -Probably because he has no "comeback"..

What I also think silly, is that sale list the engine as a "numbers matching 427 restoration motor".. We all know that there is no such thing. Matching numbers means THE engine the car came with from the factory. Not crates or even factory warranty replacement engines were numbers matching..
In fact, in you want to get down to it, I thought restamping a VIN on a car or engine was illegal..
I'm sure that eBay seller worded that phrase just so the sale would gather more interest.
A bit like many eBay sellers adding "Z28" to the title of everyday parts -like door handles or glove box doors...  ::)
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: Mike S on February 19, 2012, 03:29:45 PM
Matching numbers means THE engine the car came with from the factory.
I tend to agree but I think this "numbers matching" word is a paradox in the car collecting arena.

  This reminds me of former president Clinton's famous quotes:
"I didn't inhale"
When asked about a sexual relation with Monica "It depends upon of what the meaning of the word..."

  I do remember reading somewhere a case where a buyer bought a "numbers matching car" and later found it was a restamp and took the seller to court. The seller was not found guilty because numbers matching didn't mean original. So "numbers matching" is a play of words, IMO.   :-\

  After getting back into this hobby late last year I have done a lot of reading catch ups and the topic of restamps caught my attention and the seemingly wide spread use of it because of that human addiction called greed. But I can't help ponder, what is accepted and what is not, has come down to a pick and choose acceptance in his hobby. I mean, you can now get date coded glass and tell a potential buyer it's original glass. Nobody gets uptight when someone says I got dated glass, hose clamps, wires, etc...  but a VIN or other date codes (alternators and distributors), then the conversations gets explosive. What is the real case here...the act of restamps or the potential value that can be obtained from a restamp that causes a pick and choose practice?  ???
  In the case of this so called Yenko, it's out right fraud. But this hobby needs to get a clear legal definition of what a 'numbers matching' car is so the word game semantics can stop and potential buyers and sellers know what is legally correct in definition and what is not.

Just my 2 cents
Title: Re: "ML" Engine Stamp..
Post by: 68Zproject on February 20, 2012, 02:26:48 AM
I somewhat agree with you Mike, but the problem is with the glass and all those other "dated" parts is they don't change what the car was from the factory and most of them were maintenance items.  Most of the engine stamping is to make a car something it's not.  A 68 could be a z28 but without the original engine or trans there is no absolute way to prove it.  If you have a vin stamped MO 302, it's pretty good proof of what that car is.