CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: DeanZ10 on January 30, 2012, 08:24:01 PM

Title: Engine Stamp
Post by: DeanZ10 on January 30, 2012, 08:24:01 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/midshipmanP/69pacecar/engnumbers/PART%20OF%20ENG%20NUMBERS/DSC_2361.jpg

Do these numbers look correct to you guys? Font, location etc.
It is from a BB pacer on Ebay.

Font looks funny for date stamp especially?
Thx
Dean
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: william on January 30, 2012, 08:32:53 PM
By N614xxx the VIN stamp was on the side of the block near the oil filter.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: bertfam on January 30, 2012, 08:34:39 PM
The CAR IN QUESTION (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z11-1969-CAMARO-Z-11-CONVERTIBLE-PACE-CAR-MATCHING-NUMBERS-396-4-SP-SEE-VIDEO-/150741395813?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2318e32965) has been on ebay before and it's a nice restoration, but the engine is a restamp.

Ed
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: Mike S on January 31, 2012, 03:11:10 AM
The CAR IN QUESTION (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z11-1969-CAMARO-Z-11-CONVERTIBLE-PACE-CAR-MATCHING-NUMBERS-396-4-SP-SEE-VIDEO-/150741395813?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2318e32965) has been on ebay before and it's a nice restoration, but the engine is a restamp.

Ed


   What stands out are the fonts of the partial VIN on the block don't match the font on the tranny partial VIN. I assume the 69 engine and trannys were stamped the same time when the car was built.
The ad states "WE HAD THE ENGINE & TRANSMISSION REMOVED & PROFESSIONALLY INSPECTED FOR AUTHENTICITY"
Sounds like a play of words? Authentic doesn't necessarily mean original or 'born with'.

Mike
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: tom on January 31, 2012, 04:00:15 AM
inspected dosn't mean found, proved, verified, it just means inspected. What are the results of the inspection ?
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: Mike S on January 31, 2012, 04:09:50 AM
inspected dosn't mean found, proved, verified, it just means inspected. What are the results of the inspection ?
Agreed ....
I gave it a quick 'inspection' and the number 4 jumped out immediately to be different between the block and tranny partial VIN. The red font flag went up then.
 Inspection done!

Mike
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: KurtS on January 31, 2012, 06:22:50 AM
The ad states "WE HAD THE ENGINE & TRANSMISSION REMOVED & PROFESSIONALLY INSPECTED FOR AUTHENTICITY"
It's always nice to know that it's an authentic engine and trans, not one of those newfangled hologram versions.....

For reference, 124679N614011.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: TooManyReels on February 09, 2012, 01:57:22 AM
Not trying to highjack this tread, but want constitutes a respamp. ( I'm quite sure I know, but continue reading) Restamping of the block pad with new numbers # once it been deck with a different build date # to make it look like the original build date, or restamping a partial vin #, or both.

Lets say, a person could not find the matching motor/block. But they were able to find a correct casting block, correct casting build date, along with an original date coded pad # (Block never  decked) that matched the cars original build date, but the block  does not have a partital vin number down by the oil filter.

Lets say all these facts were true, would it not technically be considered a numbers matching block. Note, I did not say numbers matching motor.

How would anyone ever know once a car passed hands one or two times. Especially, if the the car is not in the CRG data base. How would anyone able to tell if it was a respamp or not since some times the stamping beside the oil filter is not there or ledgible.

I know it would be unethical if you knew and did not tell the  buyer the hole story.  But I'm sure its has happens.

TMR
Eddie
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: tom on February 09, 2012, 04:16:51 PM
In my opinion that would be fraud, if it was used in any way to document or verify a more desireable (higher priced) model. There is all ready too much fraud in the collector car market.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: x77-69z28 on February 09, 2012, 04:42:39 PM
transmission stamp is funky as well!
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: DeanZ10 on February 07, 2013, 05:24:47 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/midshipmanP/69pacecar/engnumbers/PART%20OF%20ENG%20NUMBERS/DSC_2361.jpg

Do these numbers look correct to you guys? Font, location etc.
It is from a BB pacer on Ebay.

Asked this question a year ago. Would like to revisit. Hopefully the picture still shows up.
Typically the vin# is at best difficult to see whether it is located on the pad or by the oil filter.
I am mostly curious about the date stamps. Obvioulsy if that stamp stands out as not being correct, be it font or height etc., It is safe to say that certainally the other stamps would be questionable. So...a few questions;
1. Is there anyone out there that has the exact fonts and numbers that Norwood used? If so, are they common place?
2. If not, then could I assume it would be very easy to spot a restamped date code??
3. Using this picture as a template. Does this date stamp have the correct fonts? Numerals?
4. Did the person doing the stamping take special care and time to make each stamp parallel to the block edge? Seems doubtful...but??
5. Also, I have seen the CRG report showing where the date stamp should be for a big block. Seems correct location here on this pic, correct??
6. Finally, After the VIN# was moved down to the oil filter, was the date stamp still put in the exact same place or did workers realize they had more room and could have moved it to the right towards or even in the middle of the pad??
I hope to start a search within the year for a BB 4 speed car and want to know as much as possible before I post pics to the forum.
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: bertfam on February 07, 2013, 06:11:52 PM
To answer your questions:

1. No, but there ARE people out there that will restamp blocks (for a fee) with similar fonts. To the untrained eye, they're more difficult to spot, but if you have a lot of real stamps (as we do in the database), they're easy to pick out.
2. See above.
3. Sorry, I won't go into details since this would only help the fakers out there.
4. No
5. Read THIS (http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#partialVINs) for the VIN location.
6. See #3 above.

If you find a car you're interested in, post a picture of the pad and we can tell you if it's real or not.

Ed
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: DeanZ10 on February 07, 2013, 06:49:59 PM
Ed,
Thanks for the responces. Guess I expected #3 and #6 responses. Since question #4 is no I assume question #3 must be no as well.

"If you find a car you're interested in, post a picture of the pad and we can tell you if it's real or not."

I did originally post this pic one year ago and still have not gotten an answer if the date stamp is real or not.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: bertfam on February 07, 2013, 07:15:05 PM
The VIN is a restamp. I'd have to ask Kurt if the suffix is or not. I don't have enough 69 stamps to compare it to.

Ed
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: KurtS on February 07, 2013, 08:30:34 PM
Dean,
You clearly asked about the pad and received a clear response.
If one is a restamp, you can assume the other is too.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: DeanZ10 on February 09, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
Kurt,
Thanks for the opinion of what a clear response should be.  I can imagine someone had a correct dated block for their car and not knowing better, stamped their VIN# where they thought it should be. Clearly plausible. I have learned that nothing should be assumed when talking about these cars.
Perhaps after the many years of experience you have had, it is clear. Don't think Ed would have suggested you would know about the date stamp if he assumed the same.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 09, 2013, 04:00:21 PM
Dean,  when I first traded for my 69 Z28 in '76, and knowing it was all original (based on it's condition and history at the time), when I inspected the pad, and found NO VIN stamp, but correct engine assembly stamp, I was *very confused*, becuase all the other Z28s I'd had and knew about up til that time had the VIN on the pad.   I went close to 10 yrs before I learned thru a car magazine ad, that 'late Norwood' cars had the VIN stamped into the cast surface above the oil filter boss.  Knowing the car was original, I NEVER considered 'stamping' the VIN in myself!   Instead, once I learned about the different stamping location, it only remained for me to pull the engine so I could *verify*, which I finally did in the late 80's and went to great extremes before I could even *detect* the stamping... special light, sunlight, enhanced high res photos, etc.   My point is, I think someone would ONLY stamp something into an original part IF they had strong suspicions already, that it was a 'fake'.. and the only wanted to make it a 'better fake'...   at least, that's MY opinion.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: bcmiller on February 09, 2013, 04:46:12 PM
Dean, I will just say this.  If the VIN is a restamp, it really doesn't matter if the assembly date/suffix stamp is real or not.  The block has been messed with, therefore no original.
Title: Re: Engine Stamp
Post by: DeanZ10 on February 11, 2013, 12:05:59 AM
Lots to learn and consider. I do appreciate your responses.
Thank you!!