CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: srode on January 08, 2012, 01:34:40 PM
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Is there a 4th ground strap used on V8 cars? I'm looking at the picture in the lower right corner of UPC U63 A7 and for the life of me can't figure out where that is supposed to be on the car or if it applies just to 6 cyllinders or V8s as well.
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See my reply number 28 below for the "correct" configurations.
Ed
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We found what was believed to be a piece of a ground strap on the front right side inner fender wheel well. Looking at the AIM it looks like it goes from there to the frame which has a corresponding hole.
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It's a little confusing I'll admit, but look at U63 sheet A6 for the V8 engine to body grounds (2 straps), and U63 sheet A5 for the body to subframe ground (1 strap).
Ed
Thanks for clearing it up Ed, that's what I thought was correct. I don't remember seeing any holes in the inner fender on mine Daniel, but I'll look again.
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Hello,
What year are you talking about?
I just checked my 2 67's and they both have only 3 straps. Two from the valve covers to firewall and one on the lower right side between the body and frame. I can't locate a 4th strap.
Mike
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I was asking about a 1969 and can only find 3 as well which matches' Ed's explanation.
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That's interesting...I would have sworn Ed stated there were 4 which is why I checked my cars.
Ed, did you re-edit your reply by chance?
Mike
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There are 4 two connected to the valve covers and fire wall, one connected below the heater box from the frame to the firewall and the last one connected to the front of the frame to the front of the inner fender pass side.
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All the v8 first gen radio ground straps (3) are grounded the same, including w/ac. The 67 AIM U63 A6,A7 gives a better explanation but the 69 AIM U63 A7 shows better detail of the the 6cyl. ground straps (2).
Bob
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Yes, I did edit my first reply because I had it wrong. There were a few changes made along the way and it gets a little confusing! I even got THIS reply wrong, so I'm removing it also.
Please see reply (number 28) below for the "correct" (well, correct per the respective AIM's) configurations.
Ed
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Ok, I had to go look at both of my cars - The picture is from an unrestored car that was originally a 307 3 speed stick. You can see what looks like a ground strap end bolted to the frame. I don't see any evidence of this strap on my Pace Car, no hole in the frame however it might be there and behind the headlight actuator cover. I don't see a hole in the inner fender well for this to be grounded to but it could be there and I just don't know exactly where to look. You can see the bumper extension bolted onto the frame as a reference for location.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6661474725_27a983d94c_b.jpg)
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Steve,
Look at 69 AIM U63 A7 it gives the exact hole piercing location on the fender-skirt.
The 67 Aim shows the frame hole as exhisting. Just looked at my 67, no holes.
Bob
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But should this even be here being this is a V8 car? I'm confused. I have 2 different v8 cars with apparently different straps, but came with AM radios - maybe the hard top was wrong from the factory, I bought it from the original owner in 1979, so to my knowledge never restored and original sub frame.
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I think the strap on the fender-skirt is only for the L6. The 67 AIM U63 A7 revision 6 indicates that it is for the L6 only. The 68 AIM U63 A7 shows revision 2 but there is no picture to show what was revised, nor does it say that the V8 was part of the revision. The 69 AIM U63 A7 does not show this view as a revision so I believe it to be the same view as should have been in the 68 AIM. I believe that the lack of engine identification in the 68 and 69 AIM has lead to confusion
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What I have seen 1969 V8's is four straps. Two straps from firewall to each valve cover. The third from firewall to subframe passenger side (below heater box). The fourth is from the inner fender to the subframe on passenger side forward, just below the battery area.
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Steve,
There are only 2 revisions shown for this radio ground strap. The first is in the 67 AIM 3-30-66 showing the installation of the strap with existing holes (which I do believe existed) and the 68 AIM 2-28-68 that should have shown detailed piercing holes required for the installation of the strap. The 69 AIM is just a detailed carry-over of the 67AIM view.
Bob
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These pictures are from my 1969 Z/28, late June build. First picture is of the strap still attached and the second is of the hole on the frame. Hope this helps some. Also on Ken Lucas's site you can see it here https://picasaweb.google.com/LucasRestorations/SteveKate69Z281#5253878278198530850
Jerry K.
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Thanks Jerry, now I know where it's supposed to go when installed, very helpful. What remains a bit of a mystery is what appears to be some 69 v8s have this strap and some do not. There are no holes in my Z11 frame or inner fender in either of those locations, but there is one in the frame of my 69 hard top.
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Steve,
What about the fenderwell on the hardtop?
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What I have seen 1969 V8's is four straps. Two straps from firewall to each valve cover. The third from firewall to subframe passenger side (below heater box). The fourth is from the inner fender to the subframe on passenger side forward, just below the battery area.
This set up is what's on my car as well. First week July (07A) built car.
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My untouched 02D '69 Norwood car doesn't have that fourth ground strap, and never did - no holes either in the subframe or the inner fender; both holes were to be drilled at assembly.
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Is it possible they just missed the strap when your build was assembled?
My untouched 02D '69 Norwood car doesn't have that fourth ground strap, and never did - no holes either in the subframe or the inner fender; both holes were to be drilled at assembly.
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Steve Shauger,
Hate to put you on the spot but was Ed's post above accurate to the best of your knowledge? Reply 9.
What do you see on 67's and 68's?
What I have seen 1969 V8's is four straps. Two straps from firewall to each valve cover. The third from firewall to subframe passenger side (below heater box). The fourth is from the inner fender to the subframe on passenger side forward, just below the battery area.
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Steve,
What about the fenderwell on the hardtop?
This is a lousy pic of the strap on my 9A of 69 Z28.
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It appears to me to be a mix with some 69 V8s having and some not having the 4th strap. Perhaps they all were supposed to but some were missed? My Z11 does not and did not ever because there are no holes, the hard top did have it. There is not hole in the inner fender on the hard top car but that's because I replaced it and the fender with new ones from GM in the early 80s after a fender bender. I remembered that when I was looking at the pictures posted above, and went out and looked and sure enough no splash apron and no holes on that inner fender for the staple but there are on the other side. The repair is probably when the strap got removed. There's a shop near by with 4 or 5 Gen 1's going through some type of restroation or impovement, I'll have to stop by some time and take a look at them and see how many have the strap or holes from where they were originally installed.
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Steve,
Just being curious, did ether of your builds have the U73 rear antenna?
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No, they both had front antennas Bob. I don't think you could get a rear antenna on a Z11 because it had the spoiler? The coupe didnn't come with much in the way of trim, no spoiler for sure, blue wheels and center hub caps were on it when I picked it up. It did have the hocky stick D90 strip on it though! :)
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Steve Shauger,
Hate to put you on the spot but was Ed's post above accurate to the best of your knowledge? Reply 9.
What do you see on 67's and 68's?
What I have seen 1969 V8's is four straps. Two straps from firewall to each valve cover. The third from firewall to subframe passenger side (below heater box). The fourth is from the inner fender to the subframe on passenger side forward, just below the battery area.
This is Ed's post regarding 69 V8's:
"For 1969 V8 cars with U63/U69, there were three straps. Two on the valve covers going to the firewall (reference Sheet A6), and one going from the firewall to the subframe (reference Sheet A5, which references Sheet A7)."
I would add: a fourth strap from the innner fender to the frame has been found on most cars. It is located on the passenger side subframe just behind the bumper bracket. Refer to U63 sheet A7 lower right illustration. Also see my previous post with pic.
Regarding 67 & 68, it looks like there are no significant changes in the assembly manual from that of the 69.
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Yep. Sorry boys I got it wrong AGAIN!!! (Forgive me, I'm old...) I was reading the "Title" on Sheet A7 in all three of the AIM's incorrectly. It's "(Body to frame AND L-6 engine to body). I was reading it like sheet A7 applied to the L6 engines only. My mistake.
Here's the skinny:
1967 L6 - 2 straps. One on the valve cover to the firewall and one on the inner fender to the subframe.
1967 V8 - 3 straps. Two on the valve covers to the firewall and one on the firewall to the frame.
1968 L6 - 2 (or 3*) straps. One on the valve cover to the firewall and one on the firewall to the subframe. (*Note that the one on the inner fender to the subframe - view 2 on Sheet A7 - was removed at some point during the 1968 model year. The date of the note is 2-28-68, but it's not known exactly when this took effect.)
1968 V8 - 3 straps. Same as 1967 V8.
1969 L6 - 3 straps. One on the valve cover to the firewall, one on the firewall to the subframe and one on the inner fender to the subframe.
1969 V8 - 4 straps. Two on the valve covers to the firewall, one on the firewall to the subframe and one on the inner fender to the subframe.
Of course, this was according to the respective AIM's. What was really done on the assembly line could be another story!
Ed
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Ed,
Think you have a handle on it.
One last thought, I would think that there should have been an item added to the 69 AIM U63 A7 revision record to show the new view of the fenderwell to frame strap.
Bob
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My 69 Z/28 03D build has U63 and only has the straps on the subframe.
My 69 Convertible L65 04D U69 has all 4 straps.
Installation quantities must have been random?
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One last thought, I would think that there should have been an item added to the 69 AIM U63 A7 revision record to show the new view of the fenderwell to frame strap.
Only if it was a running change. If this began at the start of production (which it appears to be), it wouldn't have any kind of "change" date.
Ed
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Ed,
Think you have a handle on it.
One last thought, I would think that there should have been an item added to the 69 AIM U63 A7 revision record to show the new view of the fenderwell to frame strap.
Bob
It wouldn't show in the revision record, as it was on the initial release sheet for the '69 model year; each sheet for the new model year started from scratch, with no reference to the preceding model year.
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Is it possible they just missed the strap when your build was assembled?
Yes, I'm sure it was just a missed operation; someone didn't drill the holes, so the strap didn't get installed.
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Just to add one more question to this, while looking at more pictures on Ken Lucas's site, which by the way has some great photos, I noticed this picture https://picasaweb.google.com/LucasRestorations/SteveKate69Z281#5253880912096151058
This strap is attached at the block, is this incorrect, since after reading above it sounds like it should attach to the valve cover?
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Yes its incorrect according to the AIM, it should be under the outer rear valve cover bolt, under the plug wire support.
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1969 V8 - 4 straps. Two on the valve covers to the firewall, one on the firewall to the subframe and one on the inner fender to the subframe.
Ed
U63/A5 states "All Except C60". So does this mean A/C cars only have 3 straps?
Also, can someone recommend a vendor for these straps?
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U63/A5 states "All Except C60". So does this mean A/C cars only have 3 straps?
No. U63/A5 is regarding the capacitor attachment. "All except C60" had it attached to the firewall under the ground strap, and all with "C60" had it attached to the evaporator assembly.
Also, can someone recommend a vendor for these straps?
All the vendors sell them. HERE'S (http://www.classicindustries.com/camaro/parts/k0114.html) the Classic Industries set.
Ed
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Thank you Ed.
Does anyone have a pic of this strap they can share (firewall to subframe). Seems like a tough angle for a shot...
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Firewall to subframe ground strap.
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Sweet...Thanx Steve!
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Here's mine (different angle)
boston14
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IZRSSS,
Here is a pic of the firewall to sub frame strap. My '69 Z28 is a Norwood built first week of May (05A) with a U79 "Blue Light" AM/FM Stereo, 4-speaker system with the multiplex-amplifier, shown on page 445 of the AIM. I purchased the car with about 45K original miles and restored it. It had all (4) ground straps which I still have. I attempted to clean and reuse the straps but they did not clean up to like new condition so I replaced them. The capacitor (fan blower noise suppressor) in the picture is detail #2 shown on page 439. Note that it states “ALL EXCEPT C60” for air conditioning and includes the body to frame ground strap.
I also included a picture of the Inner Fender Well (skirt) to Frame strap shown for an L-6 engine car on page 441. My car is obviously a V-8 car but it did originally include all (4) ground straps. The "E" head screw with star lock washer was on the strap in frame position so I reused it. All the other screws that go into sheet metal are replacements offered by AMK, #B-11099, 1/4-14 x 5/8” screws, Zink plated with a "D" mark. These are the #9420415 called out in the AIM. Note that the screws that go into the frame are #9420152. I can not be sure if the “E” mark screw I have is original.
Does anyone have an original U79 Radio car build about the same time period as mine with the original ground strap screws still in place in the frame positions? Are they like the “E” head screw? I would love to see a picture!
Thanks.
Dave
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Again...great pics guys & excellent explaination Dave.
Dave - I might be able to help out. I do have RPO U79 (Blue Light Stereo) and thanx to you all's explaination and pics I managed to locate mine. It was hidden underneath the evaporator. I also have reason to believe its the original strap (it's the only one of 4 attached to the car). I'll jack the car up over the weekend and see if I can get better pics including the fasteners.
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Does anyone have an original U79 Radio car build about the same time period as mine with the original ground strap screws still in place in the frame positions? Are they like the “E” head screw? I would love to see a picture!
Thanks.
Dave
Dave - Here is the cable and fasteners that came with U63/A7 (lower left pic/illustration). I also located the left body to engine strap & the fastener on it (firewall/body) is the same. I also think I can see enough of Steve's fastener to say ours are the same.
LA Build (12A)
Hope this helps...
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...WRONG ???
These cars can get really frustrating...U63/A7 (bottom left) clearly shows two different screws / fasteners. Mine are obviously the same. If these are factory they should only be for the body / firewall and not the frame.
Boston's (and I'm only speculating) look the same. If his are the same and are factory (which they certainly look factory), then his screws should only be used on the frame (per AIM) and not on the body / firewall.
Steve's pic show's two different screws. His are probably spot on.
To complicate the issue…U63/A6 & U63/A7 (bottom right) show yet another screw / screws. Can anyone be certain all fasteners ended up where they were supposed to? And to take it one step farther; how is something as complicated as this judged?
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Can anyone be certain all fasteners ended up where they were supposed to?
You guys are getting too hung up on screw and bolt head markings. GM fasteners were supplied by multiple vendors and were dumped in the same bin as other suppliers screws and bolts. No one on the lines cared what the head markings were and just grabed what was in the bin. Most cars have a mix and match number of head markings on their car so don't worry if your car has something different than another car.
Ed
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IZRSSS,
this is exactly what my u69 has.
Here is a pic of the firewall to sub frame strap. My '69 Z28 is a Norwood built first week of May (05A) with a U79 "Blue Light" AM/FM Stereo, 4-speaker system with the multiplex-amplifier, shown on page 445 of the AIM. I purchased the car with about 45K original miles and restored it. It had all (4) ground straps which I still have. I attempted to clean and reuse the straps but they did not clean up to like new condition so I replaced them. The capacitor (fan blower noise suppressor) in the picture is detail #2 shown on page 439. Note that it states “ALL EXCEPT C60” for air conditioning and includes the body to frame ground strap.
I also included a picture of the Inner Fender Well (skirt) to Frame strap shown for an L-6 engine car on page 441. My car is obviously a V-8 car but it did originally include all (4) ground straps. The "E" head screw with star lock washer was on the strap in frame position so I reused it. All the other screws that go into sheet metal are replacements offered by AMK, #B-11099, 1/4-14 x 5/8” screws, Zink plated with a "D" mark. These are the #9420415 called out in the AIM. Note that the screws that go into the frame are #9420152. I can not be sure if the “E” mark screw I have is original.
Does anyone have an original U79 Radio car build about the same time period as mine with the original ground strap screws still in place in the frame positions? Are they like the “E” head screw? I would love to see a picture!
Thanks.
Dave
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Can anyone be certain all fasteners ended up where they were supposed to?
You guys are getting too hung up on screw and bolt head markings. GM fasteners were supplied by multiple vendors and were dumped in the same bin as other suppliers screws and bolts. No one on the lines cared what the head markings were and just grabed what was in the bin. Most cars have a mix and match number of head markings on their car so don't worry if your car has something different than another car.
Ed
the screw that went into my frame was the one that was supposed to be in the firewall and visa versa, I'm sure you are right Ed, the as delivered cars weren't perfectly aligned with what the AIM indicated. Obviously so in my case with the missing 4th ground strap too.
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You guys are getting too hung up on screw and bolt head markings. GM fasteners were supplied by multiple vendors and were dumped in the same bin as other suppliers screws and bolts. No one on the lines cared what the head markings were and just grabed what was in the bin. Most cars have a mix and match number of head markings on their car so don't worry if your car has something different than another car.
Ed
Now that you’ve explained how this part of the operation went down back in the day, it makes perfect sense; why get hung up on it?
Now, for those of you familiar with the Camaro Nationals; would this be a deal breaker moving up from Bow Tie Class to Legend Class?
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Not speaking for the judges in that program, but I wouldn't lose any sleep. The Bowtie class is a 1000 point system and they spend roughly 20 minutes per car. There are many other "significant" areas that attention is paid to.
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It isn't the Bowtie Class that concerns me, its the Legend Class...
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Thanks for the additional pictures.
As we continue to try to restore our cars to more accurate standards, I believe we all can agree that correct NOS and/or clean restored dated coded parts along with the correct hardware are what separate the exceptional cars from the nice cars. And exceptional 1st Gens are not always ultra rare ZL1s, Yenkos, and JL8s, but include all original 6-cylinders well done with neat family histories.
My hope is to find other U79 and/or AM/FM radio survivor cars that still have the original hardware and attempt to discover some commonality on hardware used based on the plant and build date. This research is not limited to only radio ground straps, but includes all the hardware used on our cars. I realize that more than one suppler supplied many of the various hardware pieces on our cars, and the assembly line process was not perfect; mistakes and variation was common and to be expected. But if we can discover from survivors and original cars that one or several hardware markings appear to be common for a build period, we can then only "assume" that a certain head marking(s) to be correct.
Keep the pictures coming along with your plant and assembly build date!
Thanks
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If a 67 came without a radio would it still have the three ground straps?
Richard
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If a 67 came without a radio would it still have the three ground straps?
Richard
Take a look at UPC 63/69 sheets A6 & A7 in the 67 AIM, you'll see that installing the ground straps was part of the radio install process. So no radio, no straps. Nor would you have the static collectors inside the wheel hub dust caps.
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Nor would you have the static collectors inside the wheel hub dust caps.
What's this?
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Shown in the 67-68 AIM U63 A1 but not shown in 69 AIM. Not sure that the 69 had them. The 69 AIM revision 1 shows, "carry over not removed" ???????
Corvette suppliers have them.
Bob
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<<The 69 AIM revision 1 shows, "carry over not removed" ? >>
That's "carryover NOTE removed", which reflects removal of the '68 static collectors; after many years of installing them, they finally determined that the collectors didn't accomplish anything, and cancelled them on all car lines.
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Very Interesting - what do they look like I wonder.
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Very Interesting - what do they look like I wonder.
Here is a shot of the ones in my 67 Camaro's.
Mike
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Thanks for the picture, I would never have guessed or know this exisited.
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Sorry for the goof-up my 69 AIM is not clear and I was guessing. ???????
Bob
Shown in the 67-68 AIM U63 A1 but not shown in 69 AIM. Not sure that the 69 had them. The 69 AIM revision 1 shows, "carry over not removed" ???????
Corvette suppliers have them.
Bob
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Sorry to belabor this issue but I just can not determine where the frame to inner fender ground strap is to be located. I have viewed the photos provided but still can not determine to on location on my 1969 Z/28. Can someone provide some more photos for this strap location and maybe some measurements/distances from other body parts? Thanks - John
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Go back and review Reply#16 of this thread posted by jk1969Z28... It shows both the strap location on the inner fender, and where it connects to the frame. NOTE: What may not be clear re this topic, is that the strap is NOT in the engine compartment; instead it is inside the passenger side front wheel well area. The photos shown in reply#16 exactly match where the ground strap was located on my 09C Z28..
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Thanks 69Z28-RS, I now can visualize where the strap should be installed. Unfortunately I do not have any bolt holes in the inner fender (could be a re-pop) nor the frame. My Z is a 02D LA build so maybe like other members have stated this fourth strap was not installed there. Thanks again for getting me looking in the correct location.
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Thanks 69Z28-RS, I now can visualize where the strap should be installed. Unfortunately I do not have any bolt holes in the inner fender (could be a re-pop) nor the frame. My Z is a 02D LA build so maybe like other members have stated this fourth strap was not installed there. Thanks again for getting me looking in the correct location.
Based on what others have wrote, this particular feature (4th ground strap) was one of those 'hit and miss' features that may not have been applied 100% of the time... (who's gonna inspect inside the wheel well?).. :)
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here is mine on my 03E Norwood z28 only saw it on the passenger side of car
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Eldon - thanks for the photo. I have that strap install, it's the strap installed on the other side of the frame rail connecting to the inner fender ahead on the front wheel I was inquiring about
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I will have another look at mine and see if I can find it
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this should be the one, this is the best pic I could get of it
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PERFECT
Eldon thanks for your quick response and photo.
John
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no problem John, glad I could help