CRG Discussion Forum

Model Specific Discussions => Trans-Am Camaros => Topic started by: Jon Mello on October 03, 2011, 06:37:53 PM

Title: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on October 03, 2011, 06:37:53 PM
Many thanks go out to Tom McIntyre (http://www.historictransam.com/Drivers/TomMcIntyre.html) for sending me these photos of his early prototype cross ram manifold so we can all enjoy them.
Wayne Guinn's book Camaro: Untold Secrets is a great resource for learning more about these manifolds.

Here's a shot of Tom's manifold as seen from above. The rear of the manifold is to the right.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold001L.jpg)

A view of the manifold as seen from the rear. The hex-head brass plug is not original.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold002L.jpg)

A view of the manifold as seen from the front. The gasket between the lid and base is much thicker than original.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold003L.jpg)

A look down through one of the carburetor openings.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold004L.jpg)

This view shows the lid removed and flipped upside down.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold007L.jpg)

Handmade fuel distribution fixes are seen here at the inside/front of the manifold by intake runners #1 and #3.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold012L.jpg)

Another fuel distribution fix, this one to the rear of the #4 intake runner.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold013L.jpg)

A look at the bottom side of the manifold showing a heat shield riveted in place.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold014L.jpg)

Another look at the heat shield. These heat shields were only used on the prototypes and then
discontinued on the production manifolds. They weren't found to be necessary.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold015L.jpg)

Some material has been added to raise the height of the port and some grinding is evident to clean up that area, as well as to to match up with the cylinder
head ports. Also of note are the oval shaped holes for the intake mounting bolts which probably were necessitated by a decked block and/or milled heads.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold016L.jpg)

Another look at the bottom of the manifold, this time as seen from the front. The shape of the front of the prototype manifolds
around the waterneck area is different than the production units.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold017L.jpg)

Same thing but this time from the rear. The casting date and part number are under this shield, which has never been disturbed.
Another prototype base which has had its shield removed showed a casting number of 0-310510.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold018L.jpg)

The casting numbers on the lid of this manifold. Casting number for this piece is 0-310512.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold020L.jpg)

Closer view and different angle. Casting date which looked like 12-8-67 above appears like it might be 12-3-67.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold019L.jpg)

Someone has put a freeze plug in the hole for the oil filler tube. The Winters Foundry mark
to the right is slightly larger and raised higher than on the production cross ram manifold.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/CamaroManifold021L.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on October 04, 2011, 03:51:23 PM
Here's a link to a CRG report I wrote on cross rams many years ago.

http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: firstgenaddict on October 05, 2011, 08:40:58 PM
Jon, I believe there was a similar if not identical manifold displayed at the 07 Camaro Nats.
I am glad your pics are so much more detailed.

(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/36117/2622342970059464720S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on October 06, 2011, 06:46:38 PM
Thanks for the photo, James. That does appear to be another prototype manifold. I wonder if it is the same one that Wayne used for ID purposes when he wrote his book.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on June 27, 2012, 08:10:56 PM
Original GM cross ram manifold owned by Camaro enthusiast Jay Parsons. The lid is dated 8-21-69 and the base is dated 10-1-69.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-001.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-002.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-003.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-004.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-005.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-008.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/xram-012.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 22, 2012, 11:23:37 PM
1969 article on the Offenhauser cross ram, which is strikingly similar to the GM part. An interesting thing about the
Offy manifold is the variety of lids they offered for it, which allowed different carbs to be used. (Jon Mello Collection)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/TDD1_zps119895b1.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/TDD2_zpsd93761e5.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 1109RWHP on September 23, 2012, 03:14:53 AM
I have never seen a Weber lid like that before. I wonder if there are any around yet.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 23, 2012, 05:21:40 AM
I have seen the Weber lids but have never seen anybody run one on a car. I think they look pretty cool.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 24, 2012, 03:57:50 PM
From the Bell Auto Parts catalog of 1970, courtesy of Robert Lodewyk.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/Offyxram1970_zpsc3faf16e.png)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 01, 2013, 02:20:29 AM
Jon, I've read a fair bit of your articles on the crossram and find you very informative. I'm wondering if you have any info on a car that came to Canada called the Mini Mauler from Baldwin Motion Performance? I may have the original air cleaner from this car. It was a prototype. I also have a 68 prototype crossram manifold. Both were documented by Wayne Guinn and on his website. If anyone knows anything about either the air cleaner or manifold and how any racing history, I'd love to hear about it.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on March 01, 2013, 03:47:48 PM
I have seen the Mini Mauler article but did know know the story about the car going to Canada. If you have some pics of the air cleaner and prototype crossram, post them here when you get a chance.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 01, 2013, 11:40:13 PM
Jon, I also have read the Mini Mauler article and have no proof that the car was sold into Canada. But for sure the crossram and air cleaner from that car showed up in Canada. I purchased the air cleaner at a swap meet in Barrie, Ontario about the same time that someone from Georgetown, Ontario purchased the crossram. When I was at the GM Nationals several years ago I met with Mr. Thompson and had him sign the prototype air cleaner. He did a discussion in conjunction with Wayne Guinn and Rick's First Generation Parts.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 01, 2013, 11:43:08 PM
I'll have to dig up more of my air cleaner pictures but here is a picture of the underside of the lid. Looks like rods were welded in for spacing and then cut out at some point prior to use.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 01, 2013, 11:46:58 PM
Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up. I guess I'm looking for anyone with owner history of that green 68 Z/28 that had the crossram installed by Motion. If I had the VIN I could find out if it was ever registered in Canada, or if the manifold was removed then ended up here.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on March 02, 2013, 06:16:16 AM
I had a schedule conflict and couldn't attend that show but really wanted to. I don't have a VIN for that Mini Mauler car. Sure wish I did but no such luck. Nice to know that you can look up a car's registration history up there in Canada. If I can come up with a VIN of an interesting car that may have Canadian history, I might give you a job to do.  ;)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on March 03, 2013, 05:42:59 AM
CARS magazine road test of the Fathom Blue crossram-equipped "Mini-Mauler" from Motion. (Jon Mello Collection)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MM1_zps8b0e197d.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MM2_zps51df9ae7.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MM3_zpsf015ae54.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MM4_zpsc4d79516.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MM5_zps2c0dfb42.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 03, 2013, 02:25:48 PM
Does anyone know when this article came out in Cars Magazine? I see the dual 4 intake has the splash shield on the back that was not present on the production units.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on March 03, 2013, 04:29:21 PM
It was in the October 1968 issue which may have come out around August of that year and would have been written before that.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: OG69Z on March 04, 2013, 03:08:29 AM
Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up.

68crossram, Thank you for sharing the very informative letter. I'm working on a little project right now and this letter appears to have some data noted that I have been researching. I would greatly appreciate if you could post and share the remainder of the letter.
Thanks again!

The Cars Mag story on the Mini Mauler  sure gets the blood pumping!
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 68crossram on March 04, 2013, 12:03:49 PM
The picture of the letter came from either documentation that Wayne Guinn had or Mr. Thompson. It was displayed on the table along with the crossram manifolds. That is all I have of it. Somewhere I have contact info for Wayne but think he might also have contact info on his website.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on April 11, 2013, 05:04:50 AM
These are some pictures sent to me by the late Scott Madsen a few years ago. His father was Doug Madsen, one of the top
Corvette/Rochester FI mechanics in the country back in the '60s. Doug was the mechanic for Steve Elfenbein's Marina Blue
Z-28 out of New Jersey and this crossram is supposed to be the one that was on Elfenbein's car back in the late '60s. Scott
told me that he was told by Steve that the little squirters in the carbs were done by one of Vince Piggins' guys (probably
Bill Howell).

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR1_zpscecd8cfd.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR2_zpsca758fbd.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR3_zpsa680a24e.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR4_zps9a7bc373.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR5_zpsfb934e9e.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Oct%202012/MadsenCR6_zpsac8f06af.jpg)

Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 30, 2013, 05:07:48 AM
Here are some photos of an interesting fiberglass crossram aircleaner base from the Frank Profeta, Jr Collection.
This base supposedly came right from the Penske garage when they were doing some annual clean up, according
to the person who sold it to Frank. Frank bought it sometime in the early eighties. It did have a seal on it when it
was received but it was disintegrating and making a mess so it was removed. It's not known who had installed the
the seal in the first place.
 
The Penske Racing on the base was probably made from a Dymo label tape gun. The label on the base appears to
be part of the base. Looking at the base from the top you would not immediate catch that it is fiberglass except
that the lip found on the edge of a steel original is not there on the fiberglass part.
 
Warren asks "Did Penske use the vent tube that went into the base on his other crossrams? It's possible this fiberglass
base was made and never used." I have not had time yet to look at the '69 Penske engine photos to answer Warren's
question but that bears looking into.
 
This fiberglass base weighs 1.8 lbs. compared to 3.6 lbs. for an NOS original example. It's not known for sure if this actually
came from Penske or if someone was making the bases as a repop and stuck a Penske Racing label on one. Hopefully someone
here on our forum can verify its origin.

Mitch Moore from Kentucky also has one of these bases and I will post pics of Mitch's base next. If you look at Mitch's and
Frank's base where the vent tube hole has been taped off you can clearly see they were made from the same mold, however
Mitch's does not say Penske on it anywhere.


(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG001_zpsf537e1ac.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG001_zpsf537e1ac.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG002_zps9651b794.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG002_zps9651b794.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG003_zps56cc6404.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG003_zps56cc6404.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG004_zps3e9799ee.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG004_zps3e9799ee.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG005_zps2894e958.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG005_zps2894e958.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG006_zpsaba30738.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG006_zpsaba30738.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG007_zpseb6b4a07.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG007_zpseb6b4a07.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG008_zps3f4e05a7.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG008_zps3f4e05a7.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo


An original NOS steel base on the left vs. the fiberglass reproduction (no lip present).
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG036_zps1330a250.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG036_zps1330a250.jpg.html)
Warren Malkin, Jr photo

Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 30, 2013, 05:19:27 AM
Here are photos of Mitch's base. He claims to have bought this at Carlisle back in the early '80s. Anybody have information on these fiberglass bases?


(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG008mm_zpsaa601731.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG008mm_zpsaa601731.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG009mm_zps110c7fb0.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG009mm_zps110c7fb0.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG010mm_zps5353a92c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG010mm_zps5353a92c.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG011mm_zps70ac77cc.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG011mm_zps70ac77cc.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG012mm_zpsdce651fd.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG012mm_zpsdce651fd.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo


No "Penske Racing" imprint on this base.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/FG014mm_zps75d87bc9.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/FG014mm_zps75d87bc9.jpg.html)
Mitch Moore photo
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on June 01, 2013, 05:19:00 AM
Here we have another fiberglass air cleaner base for a crossram. This is one that Frank Dihartce bought from Dick Lewis around 1980.
Dick told Frank that it came out of Chevrolet Engineering for Penske Racing. Frank's base looks like it came from the same mold that
made the two bases above, however the hole has been punched out for the crankcase breather elbow and no "Penske Racing" is embossed.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram1_zps6c441ed2.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram1_zps6c441ed2.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram2_zpsc2ca4437.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram2_zpsc2ca4437.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram3_zps04669e66.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram3_zps04669e66.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram4_zpsbb57e6b1.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram4_zpsbb57e6b1.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram5_zpsa33715eb.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram5_zpsa33715eb.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram6_zps10071923.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram6_zps10071923.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram7_zps693fcd90.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram7_zps693fcd90.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/FDcrossram8_zps5db41d2a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/FDcrossram8_zps5db41d2a.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JoeC on June 03, 2013, 03:17:00 PM
great pics

I have seen those nozzles before. They were used by some to make a single acc pump Holley work like the double pumper.

The double pumper Holley 850 came out about 1968 and was used on the L88 Corvette then some clever aftermarket co. sold a kit called a
"gear injector kit". The kit had a acc nozzle conversion with the tubes going into the secondaries and a set of gears that replaced the vac sec parts.
It converted a Holley single pump vac sec carb into a double pump mech sec carb.

I have an old Holley 3310 that has the conversion installed.

That tube idea may have come from a Holley engineer working with the cross ram project?
interesting stuff

Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 1109RWHP on June 04, 2013, 03:47:28 AM
Can you post a picture of the carb with the kit on it?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JoeC on June 07, 2013, 01:10:31 AM
here is the old vac sec Holley with the "gear injector kit"

I have an add for the kit from an old magizine
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 1109RWHP on June 07, 2013, 03:33:20 AM
That is pretty neat. I have never seen anything like it. Did it come with a 50cc pump too?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 17, 2013, 02:57:17 AM
Here's a Motion Performance ad showing the kit.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 17, 2013, 03:05:44 AM
CARS magazine feature on the Edelbrock version of the crossram manifold used on their "Z-30" project Camaro.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/RamPower1_zpsad4f70c5.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/RamPower1_zpsad4f70c5.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/RamPower2_zps9cf8a554.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/RamPower2_zps9cf8a554.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/RamPower3_zps3a83056b.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/RamPower3_zps3a83056b.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/RamPower4_zpsaaccb954.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/RamPower4_zpsaaccb954.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 17, 2013, 01:42:10 PM
Here's the CARS magazine feature on their Z-30 "Green Meanie" street/drag racer that was their answer to the
"Blue Maxi" project Camaro done by Car & Driver magazine.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30a_zps8a5c438b.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30a_zps8a5c438b.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30b_zpsbf18df86.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30b_zpsbf18df86.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30c_zps58e74c2d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30c_zps58e74c2d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30d_zps8c3e0b5f.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30d_zps8c3e0b5f.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30e_zps3c3a4e6a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30e_zps3c3a4e6a.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/Z30f_zpsaad9dbb1.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/Z30f_zpsaad9dbb1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 69Z28-RS on September 17, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
I remember the blue maxi, as I have that magazine somewhere in my collection, but I don't recall the 'green meanie'..  Do you have any color photos?  :)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 18, 2013, 01:21:38 AM
Sorry Gary, no I don't have any color shots of the car. I wish I did but it I don't think any ever made it into print. I would deduce that the car was fathom green.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: TODD on September 26, 2013, 12:13:28 PM
Any shots of the side of the car I'd like to see what those side exhausts look like on the car.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 26, 2013, 04:10:55 PM
Sorry, Todd.  Those are the only shots of the car that I know about.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 1968RSZ28 on October 14, 2013, 04:52:42 PM
Vintage crossram photos in a '68 Z28...

Paul
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 01, 2013, 05:45:42 AM
Super Chevy article on the Chevy cross ram from 1982 showing a few vintage pics
as well as the original installation instruction sheets. (Jon Mello Collection)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC1_zps48182e2d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC1_zps48182e2d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC2_zps4024e390.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC2_zps4024e390.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC3_zpsb6d3fc2e.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC3_zpsb6d3fc2e.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC4_zps067559e7.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC4_zps067559e7.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC5_zps188066f1.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC5_zps188066f1.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC6_zpsf6e3111c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC6_zpsf6e3111c.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/May%202013/CC7_zpsc2baa04d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/May%202013/CC7_zpsc2baa04d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 29, 2013, 05:52:10 AM
Many thanks to Frank Dihartce for sharing pictures of his April 8, 1968 dated crossram with us. Frank tells me that
he believes this is the earliest casting date that was made available through the Chevy parts department for purchase
by the general public. These April manifolds still had the provision for the oil shield on the underside on the bottom
half of the manifold. Frank's manifold is using the LIST-4295 carburetors but I think GM was still using the LIST-4210A
carburetors in April '68.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH01_zps7ebfffda.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH01_zps7ebfffda.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH024-8-68_zps9ffc7e3e.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH024-8-68_zps9ffc7e3e.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH03_zpsb9c3db8a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH03_zpsb9c3db8a.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH04_zpsdf3f71c7.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH04_zpsdf3f71c7.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH05_zps377ae158.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH05_zps377ae158.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH06_zpsb9a08749.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH06_zpsb9a08749.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH07_zps7f61f6cf.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH07_zps7f61f6cf.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH08_zpsd659721a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH08_zpsd659721a.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH09_zps115d59d7.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH09_zps115d59d7.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH10_zpse880fd0c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH10_zpse880fd0c.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH11_zps7c076c57.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH11_zps7c076c57.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH12_zps9d3f7924.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH12_zps9d3f7924.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH13_zpsa7138bda.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH13_zpsa7138bda.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH14_zps4c509224.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH14_zps4c509224.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 29, 2013, 06:16:25 AM
More awesome crossram goodies from the Frank Dihartce Collection. Some neat details in these photos.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH15_zps86476774.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH15_zps86476774.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH16_zpse2ccac51.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH16_zpse2ccac51.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH17_zpsf282f19d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH17_zpsf282f19d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH18_zpsd9b1450d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH18_zpsd9b1450d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH19_zpscf5c8cba.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH19_zpscf5c8cba.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH20_zpsb3b55f37.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH20_zpsb3b55f37.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH21_zps04fee2b1.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH21_zps04fee2b1.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH22_zps4ff61109.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH22_zps4ff61109.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH23_zps44b7f0d1.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH23_zps44b7f0d1.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH24_zps3f253af5.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH24_zps3f253af5.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH25_zps421e154c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH25_zps421e154c.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH26_zps3c6ecfd9.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH26_zps3c6ecfd9.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH27_zps8b6e8e9c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH27_zps8b6e8e9c.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH28_zps963ed02d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH28_zps963ed02d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH29_zpsa3cd0586.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH29_zpsa3cd0586.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH30_zpsd1daaccf.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH30_zpsd1daaccf.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH31_zps80ec667a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH31_zps80ec667a.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH32_zps0b9f64b3.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH32_zps0b9f64b3.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH33_zps2a9dd46c.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH33_zps2a9dd46c.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH34_zps2743b1e6.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH34_zps2743b1e6.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH35_zps54436740.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH35_zps54436740.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH36_zpse6465417.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH36_zpse6465417.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH37_zps8ffd27c4.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH37_zps8ffd27c4.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH38_zps17697fcf.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH38_zps17697fcf.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH39_zpsec265ee5.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH39_zpsec265ee5.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH40_zps7d3d7254.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH40_zps7d3d7254.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH41_zpsbff1f138.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH41_zpsbff1f138.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH42_zps5a431fc2.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH42_zps5a431fc2.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH43_zps762372e3.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH43_zps762372e3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 30, 2013, 06:20:40 AM
Here's a November '68 crossram manifold setup, also from the Frank Dihartce Collection.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH01Nov68unit_zps63cb64a4.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH01Nov68unit_zps63cb64a4.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH02Nov68unit_zps1b3de501.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH02Nov68unit_zps1b3de501.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH03Nov68unit_zps1559348d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH03Nov68unit_zps1559348d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramFDH04Nov68unit_zpsaa1735b2.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramFDH04Nov68unit_zpsaa1735b2.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-01_zpsbf41f533.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-01_zpsbf41f533.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 30, 2013, 06:25:55 AM
These are some nice, close-up shots of an original GM fuel block for the crossram set-up, again from the Frank Dihartce Collection.
Many thanks to Frank for sharing these photos with us.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH01_zpsc6d4e1b8.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH01_zpsc6d4e1b8.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH02_zpsb2e0ef90.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH02_zpsb2e0ef90.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH03_zpsf44179ce.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH03_zpsf44179ce.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH04_zpsf4d2e9cb.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH04_zpsf4d2e9cb.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH05_zpscbcf9fe3.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH05_zpscbcf9fe3.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH06_zpsa402b6db.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH06_zpsa402b6db.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on February 03, 2014, 05:02:16 AM
Here's another crossram from the Frank Dihartce Collection. This is what Frank has to say about it...

"This is another crossram 4.8.68 dated setup I bought. It is stamped “KL RACING” on the front runner, and came with two 4295 Holley carbs 891 dated, fuel block with four lines and one hose nipple, oil splash shield, oil fill tube, and water neck. The manifold lid has no date which is consistent with the other 4.8.68 unit I had, and the manifold bottom is exactly the same as my other 4.8.68 unit."

Anyone out there have any thoughts on who KL Racing might be?

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/01xram_zpsc091f78e.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/01xram_zpsc091f78e.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/02xram_zps200dd7ac.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/02xram_zps200dd7ac.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/03xram_zps52ad79dd.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/03xram_zps52ad79dd.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/04xram_zpsb1f86a74.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/04xram_zpsb1f86a74.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/05xram_zpsf19e89de.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/05xram_zpsf19e89de.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/06xram_zps5b154939.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/06xram_zps5b154939.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/07xram_zps74b0908d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/07xram_zps74b0908d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/08xram_zps7c79ff98.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/08xram_zps7c79ff98.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/09xram_zps06525e0f.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/09xram_zps06525e0f.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/10xram_zps6cc6d689.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/10xram_zps6cc6d689.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/11xram_zps577d6d2f.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/11xram_zps577d6d2f.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/12xram_zpsbeb8d3f4.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/12xram_zpsbeb8d3f4.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/13xram_zps189ab144.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/13xram_zps189ab144.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/14xram_zps09858e58.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/14xram_zps09858e58.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/15xram_zpsf75b414d.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/15xram_zpsf75b414d.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/16xram_zps0d9f7413.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/16xram_zps0d9f7413.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/17xram_zps3963b6f0.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/17xram_zps3963b6f0.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/18xram_zpsd5798b74.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/18xram_zpsd5798b74.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/19xram_zps77ab67bd.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/19xram_zps77ab67bd.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/20xram_zps6eacbf7e.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/20xram_zps6eacbf7e.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/21xram_zps136a7734.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/21xram_zps136a7734.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/22xram_zpsa88ca4a4.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/22xram_zpsa88ca4a4.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Steve Holmes on September 03, 2014, 08:48:04 PM
Fascinating and informative thread! Were teams allowed to run either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes in period, or was it only the GM product that was homologated for use?

Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 04, 2014, 04:15:23 AM
Thanks, Steve. You could run aftermarket manifolds starting in 1971 but by then the 2x4 manifolds had been disallowed. Camaros were only able to use the GM crossram in '68 and '69 then they had to go to the single 4-bbl manifold in 1970.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Steve Holmes on September 04, 2014, 08:47:43 PM
Thanks Jon, great info! So given the prices commanded for the GM manifolds, and their scarcity (as I say that there appear to be two of them on ebay as I write this), are HTA car owners running 1968/69 cars allowed to fit either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes or can they only fit the GM intake, as per the period?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 05, 2014, 01:48:25 PM
Steve, the HTA group has allowed aftermarket crossrams since the authentic GM versions are so expensive, among other considerations. Years ago they allowed Vic Edelbrock to use the Edelbrock version of the crossram on his Camaro because, well, he's Vic Edelbrock. Vic had (and still has) been very supportive of the group in a number of ways, so it was a courtesy extended to him. But it has grown from there to encompass some of the other Camaros running in the group.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: cook_dw on September 05, 2014, 04:30:24 PM
Just noticed but I wonder why in the Z30 article they used a small balancer..
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 05, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
Coudn't tell you. I think that's a display engine and not what actually went in the Z/30 car.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: cook_dw on September 05, 2014, 07:11:46 PM
Makes sense..
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on December 15, 2014, 03:04:03 AM
Early prototype crossram manifold advertised for sale on the yenko.net website...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/592374/crossram-corvette-intakes-and-#Post592374
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 03, 2015, 08:11:34 PM
March 1968 Chevrolet Engineering Service Letter introducing the cross ram manifold, aka 2x4 Carburetor Conversion package.
(Jon Mello Collection)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%201_zpsitmytge4.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%201_zpsitmytge4.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%202_zpsvjjm048a.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%202_zpsvjjm048a.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%203_zpsg7whvdxk.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%203_zpsg7whvdxk.jpg.html)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%204_zpsygu0nmdw.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/ESL%20crossram%204_zpsygu0nmdw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 04, 2015, 12:39:31 AM
Chevrolet drawing and instructions for some of the necessary adjustments for the cross ram. (Jon Mello Collection)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Crossram%20linkage%201_zpsfgw4hpvz.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Crossram%20linkage%201_zpsfgw4hpvz.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Crossram%20linkage%202_zpsz4rcpmpy.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Crossram%20linkage%202_zpsz4rcpmpy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 67pACe on May 12, 2015, 06:10:17 PM
I also have an original of the Chevrolet drawing in an old GM parts counter book I received from a dealership. Has lots of interesting stuff. I've collected parts for crossrams over the years and currently have a 6-19-68 top mated to a 6-25-68 base that is in a glass top coffee table. Objects de art is how I see these units now.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Trans Åm on May 12, 2015, 07:10:21 PM
Objects de art is how I see these units now.

No No no, you're doing it all wrong, you need to mount it on a working engine...............then connect it to your wives blender or a washing machine or something. Now that would be a spectacle!
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Steve Holmes on May 14, 2015, 02:35:57 AM
Here is the engine bay of a '69 Z28 road car here in New Zealand I was looking at last week:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/snf9xl.jpg)
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: satman on June 21, 2015, 12:37:46 AM
This manifold was a fantastic piece of engineering it gave us more raw HP per $$$ right out of the box than any modification than any modification we ever made .......... I could never understand why SCCA outlawed it in 1970, perhaps they were trying to save us fuel.

AL
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on June 21, 2015, 03:09:58 PM
Al, did you ever get any help from Bill Howell or other Chevy people on setting up the carbs for the crossram, what jet sizes to use, etc?

BTW, where was that picture taken?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: oldtransamdriver on June 21, 2015, 08:24:12 PM
Hi Al,

Where is our old crew buddy Dennis?  He was at one time, working for a large downtown Toronto Ford dealer.  Dennis was
a neat guy.

Robert
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: satman on June 22, 2015, 02:33:12 AM
  Jon 
   The picture was taken at Lawrence transmission shop in Toronto ...... We shared a large garage with a bunch of stock car racers but my friend Bob Speck would let us use his shop to build our motors. In fact I think we assembled the manifold on my kitchen table. The only help we ever got from GM was from a friend of mine who worked in the parts department at the GM plant in Oshawa, he could get us anything we wanted as long as it would fit in his lunch box.

Bob
Lost track of Dennis originally he was slated to drive the car but we ended up striking a deal with a used car salesman from
St. Catherines and as they the say rest is history. Reflecting back on our race team Churchill's words come to mind " no one has done so much with so little "

AL
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on January 18, 2018, 03:29:40 AM
Crossram manifold with extra goodies for sale.  For the man with very deep pockets.

https://www.hemmings.com/parts/item/14148.html?refer=news
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: 369 on January 26, 2018, 05:48:11 AM
Ouch!
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Kelley W King on January 26, 2018, 04:51:34 PM
For 85K I think I will let you guys move on this one. Odd they were in a rush to get it done for a race but the carbs were not made until about 14 weeks later.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: WorkinProgress on January 26, 2018, 05:18:26 PM
Crossram ad says it was being prepared for a 1968 Sebring race. I would think the matched 824 carb dates are fine. Race date was March 23, 1968.
                                                  - Warren

http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/race.php?raceid=6122
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: maroman on January 26, 2018, 05:39:12 PM
Jon, does it come attached to your Z? If so I the check is in the mail.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on September 27, 2018, 10:23:41 PM
Greetings JON MELLO and others,

Greatly appreciate and RESPECT all your work documenting.

New to the forum, found while researching 1969 Hurst AMX S/S cars.

If I may, on your CRG CrossRam & Carb pages, it appears
there may be a couple typo errors on Holley Carburetor Numbers ?

In the body of the text and in the Carburetor Usage Chart.

imho, ? should the 1968 Carburetor Usage Chart should read ?:

302/290 (2X4) 3906631 (proto) Holley # 3810
302/290 (2X4) 3941140 (early) Holley # 4210
302/290 (2X4) 3957859 (later) Holley # 4295

"It appears" the GM #3942595 302 CrossRam FUEL PIPE Number got typed
in error as the GM Part Number for the Holley List #4210 1st Design Carb,
whereas GM #3941140 appears correct for the Holley #4210 1st Design Carb,
and for GM #3957859 appears correct for the Holley #4295 2nd Design Carb.

Appears GM #3906631 is the correct number for the Holley #3810
which was used as a Proto-Type and starting point for the
Holley List #4210 1st Design Carb used on the CrossRam.

There are prototype CrossRam & Carbs pictures on the web
where the Carb Choke Horn List Number "4210" is ETCHED in place,
maybe "3810" is etched out, and GM #3906631 is left as-stamped.

Also, it appears that ONLY the GM and Offenhauser SBC CrossRam Intakes
were made with the "Central Aft Carb BellCrank Relief Pocket"
which allows the Driver's Side Carb to be mounted "Backwards"
allowing for "improved Fuel Air Distribution"...

Whereas the Edelbrock SBC CrossRam Intake,
as well as the Edelbrock CrossRam for the AMC V8's,
does NOT have the "Central Aft Carb BellCrank Relief Pocket"
which "dis-allows" the Driver's Side "Backwards" Carb mounting. 

May be worth mentioning another "unique" feature of the 4210 & 4295
Chevy CrossRam Holley Carbs are their "Left Handed" Center Hung
Fuel Bowl Inlets, combined with the "Backwards" Driver's Side mounting,
allows all the Linkage and Fuel Lines to be centrally located... "clean".

Also, as best as I've been able to establish, it appears that
the SBC 302 CrossRam 2nd Design Holley List 4295 Carburetors
were the 1st Holley DOUBLE PUMPER CARBS ! ? !


Not only was the Edelbrock AMC CrossRam Intake used on the 1969
Hurst AMX S/S 390 "handicapped" with "non-symmetrical" Carb mounting,
it is my belief that the OEM Holley List # 4584 Carburetors specified
were "re-numbered, re-applied, Chevy 302 throwback" List 4210 Carbs.

Nothing but the upmost respect for your work.
Only trying to learn and understand and clarify.

Thank You, C. Kevin Thomas

  CrossRams page:   http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml
Carburetors page:   http://www.camaros.org/carb.shtml
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on September 30, 2018, 12:45:03 AM
Rounded up some images of what is stamped on some Holley Carburetor Choke Towers.
Interesting to see ETCHED numbers on early versions of both the List 4210 and List 4584.
Holley seemed to be fast and furious with innovations during that 1965 to 1969 time period.
The 1965 Z-16 Chevelle List 3310 and other '65 Chevys had
the 1st Dual Line Center Inlet Fuel Bowls
as far as I can tell with research done to this point.

May I ask, does anyone have, would someone post, clear pictures of
an original un-restored Holley List 4210 Stamped Carb Choke Tower, and
an original un-restored Holley List 4295 Stamped Carb Choke Tower with a 1968 Date Code ?

Another subtle difference between List 4210 and List 4295 Holley Carburetors was
both had Roller and Slot BellCranks, but the List 4210 had a "constant radius" Slot,
where the List 4295 had a "W" shaped Slot, so 1:1 4210 versus Progressive 4295 ?

Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: BRG Z28 on October 01, 2018, 11:38:02 AM
When did the switch take place from 4210 to 4295? I have a 7/68 4210
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 01, 2018, 05:59:56 PM
Using GMPartsWiki, there is a GM Catalog that says it is from October 1968 at the top of the pages
but on the bottom left of the pages it says Rev. 7-1-69... so less than "definitive"... but...
it does list BOTH the 4210 (1st Design) and the 4295 (2nd Design) CrossRam Carburetors...
So maybe by at least Sep-Oct 1968 the 4295 Carburetors were "in the system"... ?
It would be nice to know for sure just when the 4295 Carburetors where phased in,
and guess the GM change to 4295's is what makes 4210 Carburetors so rare maybe.

http://www.gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=218307
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on October 03, 2018, 01:51:42 AM
I don't think you're ever going to find a "hard" date for when the 4295 replaced the 4210 carb but it would have been sometime during the summer months of '68.

I don't have a collection of photos showing 4210 and 4295 choke tower numbers so I personally can't help with that but maybe someone else here can. Some of the pictures above show numbers altered with an electric engraver. I would not call that etched, and there is no telling who altered those numbers. Maybe I'm wrong but that does not seem like something Holley would have done.

You are correct that there is an error with the '68 cross ram carb listing for '68 on our carburetor page and I will get that fixed when an opportunity presents itself. The 3810 is thought to have been a developmental carburetor while the manifold was undergoing initial development.  There would not have been a cross ram unit that left GM for public consumption with a pair of these 3810 carbs on it, in my opinion.

The '68 cross ram carbs should read...
302/290 (2X4) 3941140 (early) Holley # 4210
302/290 (2X4) 3957859 (later) Holley # 4295

You're also right about the 3942595 part number being incorrectly types for the carburetor when it was one of the fuel pipes so that is another thing for me to fix. I appreciate your help so that I can put correct information out there.

I don't believe the 4295 is the first Holley double pumper as I remember talking with GM engineer Bill Howell (part of Vince Piggins' Product Promotion Group) and he told me years ago that he was testing an 800 double pumper carb on the Penske Camaro right after the '67 Trans-Am season finished. This was before the cross ram was available and was in the Oct-Nov 1967 timeframe.  I just asked him again a couple of days ago about cross ram carburetors and double pumpers and here is his reply..."As a test engineer in the lab, I had no release responsibilities, so I did not keep track of part numbers and minor differences in many new parts being considered for release.  By the time the 2x4 package was released for production, I was in Vince's group, so I had limited interest in those details.  I knew the carbs were 600 cfm, and their double pumper characteristics.  In their production layout, they were difficult to work with, so we reversed end for end the float bowls to get the fuel fittings outboard.  This also increased the difficulty in setting the fuel levels, as in production, they were different front to rear. I would have to adjust the fuel to the bottom of the sight plug, and then raise or lower it to the correct recommended level after reinstalling the sight plugs.  Your recollection that the Marlboro test in 1967 probably involved a double pumper 800 cfm is correct in my memory (tho I have no written record for reference).  It amazes me how accurate my memory of the 1960's is compared to the 1980's.  I guess that speaks to the level of excitement I was experiencing during those times.  I hope the above information is of benefit for your research."
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 20, 2018, 06:18:19 PM
Agree that the "Engraver" marked carbs look something other than "legitimate"...
but when I saw pics of early claimed original Hurst S/S AMX CrossRam 4584 Carbs
and pictures of early claimed original Chevrolet 302 CrossRam 4210 Carbs both marked the
same way with an Engraver it made me wonder if that's what Holley may have done in '68.
At least on very early "needed now for sanctioned racing teams" at the beginning of the season where
the winter off-season R&D ran a little long leaving little time for "production versions" of those carbs.

Wonder if the 800 Double Pumper was a one-off 302 CR "R&D" Carb not produced and sold?
Or maybe if they were a pair of the short-lived Holley List 4223 850 cfm Center Squirter Carbs?

Find it very interesting where one can see the progression in the 3 carbs used on the 302 CR,
from Single Line Vac Sec, to Dual Line Center Hung Mech Sec Single Squirter, to Dual Line Double Pumper.

It's just a curiosity, specifics of 3 Holley 1st...

Holley List 1272 = ? 1st Modular Model 4150, 1957 ? debuted on a Ford
Holley List 1850 = ? 1st 600 cfm Vac Sec Modular Model 4150, also 1957 ? Ford 312
Holley List 3310 = ? 1st Holley Dual Line, 1965 Z-16 ( one of a few List #'s debuted on Chevy's in '65 )
Holley List 4295 = ? 1st Holley Double Pumper, 1968 302 CrossRam

Surprised have been unable to find those Holley "firsts" already specifically documented...
Amazed two of them are still going strong as the most popular Universal Carbs, the 1850 & 3310...
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on October 24, 2018, 03:13:25 AM
Might be worth talking to somebody at Holley for their opinion on the engraver markings but with this many years gone by, nobody there might be "in the know".
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 25, 2018, 08:43:47 PM
Past Holley contact attempts failed to turn up knowledgeable "old timers".
They "sent me" to Holman-Moody and Daytona Performance for "History" questions.

Interesting, in practice Bill Howell says they reversed the
production Cross Ram Carbs Fuel Bowls for outboard Fuel Lines
making Float Level setting more "complex" but the overall set-up
easier to work with than production "compact all central" layout.

Seems maybe Holley Center Squirter Carbs were developed prior to
Double Pumpers, "implied" by possibly a numerical order application
of Holley Carburetor List Numbers...
List 4223 being an 850? Center Squirter & List 4224 being a 660,
whereas the later Cross Ram Double Pumper Carbs are Holley List 4295.

Came across a post of yours in the "Traco Fans" thread, page 11, post 160,
with a pic of Bill Howell & Mark Donohue at Marlboro Raceway testing tires
and "the new Holley Double Pumper Carb", after the '67 TA Season,
maybe in Dec '67, as mentioned in your previous reply posted here.
From it I see where my previous post incorrectly asks about possibly a "pair"
of Center Squirters being tested then, when it was a single Carb Intake Test.

Any chance maybe the ~Dec '67 Single Carb Marborol Test was a Center Squirter ?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: BRG Z28 on October 25, 2018, 09:14:39 PM
Most of the 4210 I have seen, the air horn have been drilled for center squirters. I assume this was never done by Holley.... Were the center squirters a Holley acceccery? If not who made the Holley center squirters?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 25, 2018, 11:16:32 PM
Yes, have seen "modified" List 4210 Holley Single Squirter Mechanical Secondary Carbs
with aftermarket "custom" Squirters with extra "tubes" that reach back to the secondary side.
see pics ( one modified 4210 pic i think is from elsewhere in this thread iirc ),last pic is a 4223 850 Ctr Squirter

Due a Google Search for Holley 4224, it's still made and available as I understand, it is a 660 CFM Center Squirter.  The 850 CFM Holley List 4223 lasted only 1 or 2 years and was then discontinued.  Can also google search it for pictures.  They have a single 4-Tube Center Mounted Pump Shooter that is located where the Air Cleaner Stud usually screw in, then there is a separate "special crossover" Air Cleaner Stud "Plate" that mounts across over top of the single 4-Tube central Squirter that sprays into all 4 Throttle Bores at once.

The Linkage for Center Squirters is the Slot & Follower Type and 1:1
The 1st Design List 4210 linkage is also the same way.
the 2nd Design List 4295 linkage is Slot & follower, but "Staged",
not 1:1, and the first true "Double Pumper".
The Center Squirters, List 4223 850 CFM, and List 4224 660 CFM,
are "Single Pumpers" but have the single centrally mounted Squirter
with 4 Discharge Tubes and squirt into all 4 Venturis at the same time.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 25, 2018, 11:20:47 PM
Or are you speaking of a 4210 modified like this pic I may have saved from earlier in this thread ?
Second vintage pic is a pair of List 4224 660 Center Squirters on an AMC Cross Ram.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 01, 2018, 10:28:07 PM
? The FIRST Holley Double Pumper Carburetor ?  ???

Further research unearthed a clue that as Jon Mello suggests the
Holley List 4295 GM # 3957859 2nd Design 302 Cross Ram may NOT be the first...
as he mentioned in the text accompanying the possibly Dec 1967 photograph of Bill Howell
and Mark Donohue testing a "Double Pumper" on the Trans Am Camaro at Marlboro Raceway...

GM # 3955205 Holley List 4296 is the 800 CFM (per GM SS Special HD Catalog)
Double Pumper from the '69 ZL-1 Camaro and I think the 1968 L-88 Corvette 427 ?

... Need more research, the same GM SS Special HD Catalog page 37 for 396-427-454 says:
"The stock 1 x 4 Barrel Carburetor on the large block Heavy Duty Engines
was the 850 CFM Holley with throttle bore of 1.75"."

Yet fails to provide GM No., holley List No. or if a Double Pumper...  ???

Notice that the L-88 Holley List Number is "Later / Higher" than the CR 302, but buy only 1 digit !
Yet the L-88 List 4296 800 DP GM Part No. is "Earlier / Lower" than the List 4295... hmmm...

? Anyone have information on what OEM Carburetors were used on the 1967-68-69 L-88's ?
Appears the Stock L-88 Carburetor may be an 850 CFM Double Pumper,
but have yet to find Part or List Numbers and one with 1967 or 1968 Date Codes...
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on November 02, 2018, 03:12:38 AM
I have not researched carburetors on your level so it will have to be someone else to come to the rescue.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 02, 2018, 06:00:11 PM
Ok, Thank You, I put this in the Cross Ram thread since maybe it had the 1st Holley Double Pumper.

Holley List 4295   GM # 3957859 = Double Pumper = 1968 302 Cross Ram, 2nd Design

Holley List 4296   GM # 3955205 = Double Pumper = 1968 L-88 2nd Design, and 1969 ZL-1 427
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: BRG Z28 on November 05, 2018, 11:13:49 PM
I feel lucky I was able or find two 4210 matching date carbs in the last couple of months. Is there any trick to get these carbs to run good? Everything I have read, they have a big “bog” when the secondaries kick in. I know they will not rever run as well as my 4295’s but is there any recommendation or “tricks” to get the maximum performance and drivability out of the? Thank you,
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 06, 2018, 10:31:17 PM
Congrats on the "nice find"  8) ...
? Intend to post up a bunch of nice sharp pictures of those 4210 Carbs ?


Only from looking at vintage information, NOT from real world experience,
and something I'd NOT do to the original 4210 Base Plates...
but would do to a pair of 2nd correct replacements,
or even better fit replacements with the later "W" Slot & Roller Linkage, ? Progressive,
where the 4210 is a "Constant Radius" Slot & Roller Linkage, ? 1:1.

The "Constant Radius" can be seen Modified in vintage pictures
by grinding an "Entry Flat" at the 1st part of Slot's Front Edge,
or even fitting with a small Adjustable Plate.
This delays Secondary Opening improving non-bog chances when they open.

Understanding is for those 4210 Type Single Pumper Mechanical Secondary Carbs
the Secondary Main Air Bleeds should / must / are / will be Very Small...
So the Secondary Boosters come on real quick, and probably drip otherwise...
tough on mid-range drive-ability but is what makes that arrangement have a chance of working... imho
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 10, 2018, 09:55:12 PM
Thank You BRG Z28 for these pictures of a pair of 1:1 Slot & Roller Mechanical Secondary Single Squirter
1968 302 Cross Ram 1st Design GM # 3941140 Holley List 4210 Carburetors with
"875" July, 5th Week, 1968 Date Codes, # 4743 and # 5806 Metering Blocks...
? 5th Week July 1968 Date Code any "clue" to when the 2nd Design List 4295 Carbs were Phased In ?...
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on November 11, 2018, 10:13:30 PM
Wayne Guinn's book "Camaro Untold Secrets", which you might find an interesting read, says...

Holley 3810 (which he states is p/n 3941140) was specified for use approximately Nov '67
Holley 4210 (which he states is p/n 3942595) was specified for use approximately Mar '68
Holley 4295 (which he states is p/n 3957859) was specified for use approximately May '68
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: BRG Z28 on November 12, 2018, 02:02:14 AM
Jon, the 4210’s that were just posted June of 1968.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 12, 2018, 02:23:47 AM
Wow, using Google some places want $190 + for that book... wow... maybe can find it at the Library...
But, ah, it is a source of the Carb info that appears to contain errors maybe...
A few post back it was discussed, a Fuel Pipe Part Number found it's way in there somehow...
Yeah, who's to say how long Holley kept crankin' out 1st Design 4210's, to use up parts produced maybe?
Or maybe the was a minimum quantity ordered requirement by Holley for Chevrolet... or even SCCA...

Anyone have say a 1971 or so Holley Catalog ?  To look up the 4210 & 4295 Specs
in the Numerical Listing, mainly orig Squirter Size(s), Jets, Power Valves, Venturi & Throttle Dims...
Pretty sure both have all (4) 1-9/16" Throttle Dia 1-1/4" Dia Pri Venturi and 1-5/16" Dia Sec Venturi.

1988 is the oldest Holley Catalog I have and both 4210 & 4295 are absent from the Numerical Listing in the back...
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on November 13, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
The 4210s above appear to be dated 5th week of July '68.

Sorry, I do not have any Holley catalogs but maybe someone else can help.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on November 16, 2018, 10:20:51 PM
BRG Z28 - re-reading my previous post it is kinda a little unclear...

For your 4210 Carbs, I would consider getting another Pair of just Throttle Plate Assemblies with the
Staged or Progressive "W" Shaped Slot & Roller Bellcrank like on the 2nd Design 4295 Carbs
instead of the stock 4210 1:1 "Constant Radius" Bellcrank,
and save and leave your stock 4210 Bases unmodified.
But finding Throttle Plates with the "W" Bellcrank AND all 4 Butterflies in 1-9/16" Dia. may be difficult.
Vendors do sell only the SHAFT Assemblies with the "W" Slot Bellcrank, but for 1-11/16" Dia Butterflies.
As for getting Only Shaft Assemblies, understanding is a Throttle Plate from any ol' Holley List 1850
would be a workable Throttle Plate with 1-9/16" Dia. Throttles, but the Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank
would need to be changed out for the "W" Slot and Roller Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank Linkage.
But the swagged on Shaft Ends would have to removed from the purchased Shafts for 1-11/16" 'Flies,
the standard shaft ends removed from the 1850 Base Plate shafts, and the Staged "W" Slot and Roller
shaft end pieces attached / welded onto the 1850 Shafts which are for 1-9/16" Dia. Throttle Plates.
Unless, someone like Daytona Performance or Braswell Carburetion would make some up for you.
Clear as mud, right ?  ;D
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: OG69Z on December 02, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
Quote from: PHAT69AMX

[size=12pt
Anyone have say a 1971 or so Holley Catalog ?[/size]  To look up the 4210 & 4295 Specs
in the Numerical Listing, mainly orig Squirter Size(s), Jets, Power Valves, Venturi & Throttle Dims...
Pretty sure both have all (4) 1-9/16" Throttle Dia 1-1/4" Dia Pri Venturi and 1-5/16" Dia Sec Venturi.

1988 is the oldest Holley Catalog I have and both 4210 & 4295 are absent from the Numerical Listing in the back...

This is from the 1975 Holley Catalog:
https://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/IMG_1787-2_zpsrpnwphmh.jpg.html](https://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/1969Muscle/IMG_1787-2_zpsrpnwphmh.jpg)[/URL]
http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/IMG_1786_zpsgkid3cxg.jpg.html](http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/1969Muscle/IMG_1786_zpsgkid3cxg.jpg)[/URL]
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 24, 2019, 04:48:25 AM
BRG Z28 - re-reading my previous post it is kinda a little unclear...

For your 4210 Carbs, I would consider getting another Pair of just Throttle Plate Assemblies with the
Staged or Progressive "W" Shaped Slot & Roller Bellcrank like on the 2nd Design 4295 Carbs
instead of the stock 4210 1:1 "Constant Radius" Bellcrank,
and save and leave your stock 4210 Bases unmodified.
But finding Throttle Plates with the "W" Bellcrank AND all 4 Butterflies in 1-9/16" Dia. may be difficult.
Vendors do sell only the SHAFT Assemblies with the "W" Slot Bellcrank, but for 1-11/16" Dia Butterflies.
As for getting Only Shaft Assemblies, understanding is a Throttle Plate from any ol' Holley List 1850
would be a workable Throttle Plate with 1-9/16" Dia. Throttles, but the Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank
would need to be changed out for the "W" Slot and Roller Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank Linkage.
But the swagged on Shaft Ends would have to removed from the purchased Shafts for 1-11/16" 'Flies,
the standard shaft ends removed from the 1850 Base Plate shafts, and the Staged "W" Slot and Roller
shaft end pieces attached / welded onto the 1850 Shafts which are for 1-9/16" Dia. Throttle Plates.
Unless, someone like Daytona Performance or Braswell Carburetion would make some up for you.
Clear as mud, right ?  ;D

Do you have a picture of the "W" cam on the 4210?
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 24, 2019, 12:34:35 PM
BRG Z28 - re-reading my previous post it is kinda a little unclear...

For your 4210 Carbs, I would consider getting another Pair of just Throttle Plate Assemblies with the
Staged or Progressive "W" Shaped Slot & Roller Bellcrank like on the 2nd Design 4295 Carbs
instead of the stock 4210 1:1 "Constant Radius" Bellcrank,
and save and leave your stock 4210 Bases unmodified.
But finding Throttle Plates with the "W" Bellcrank AND all 4 Butterflies in 1-9/16" Dia. may be difficult.
Vendors do sell only the SHAFT Assemblies with the "W" Slot Bellcrank, but for 1-11/16" Dia Butterflies.
As for getting Only Shaft Assemblies, understanding is a Throttle Plate from any ol' Holley List 1850
would be a workable Throttle Plate with 1-9/16" Dia. Throttles, but the Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank
would need to be changed out for the "W" Slot and Roller Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank Linkage.
But the swagged on Shaft Ends would have to removed from the purchased Shafts for 1-11/16" 'Flies,
the standard shaft ends removed from the 1850 Base Plate shafts, and the Staged "W" Slot and Roller
shaft end pieces attached / welded onto the 1850 Shafts which are for 1-9/16" Dia. Throttle Plates.
Unless, someone like Daytona Performance or Braswell Carburetion would make some up for you.
Clear as mud, right ?  ;D

Do you have a picture of the "W" cam on the 4210?
John

Correction the "W" slot on the 4295.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 24, 2019, 12:47:36 PM
Here you go...

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 24, 2019, 04:46:58 PM
Here you go...

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

Thank you,
Do you know if that cam has three steps on the action? The first step would be primary actuation only, the second step would slowly bring the secondary butterflies along with the primaries open, followed by a third step that would be the change visible in the picture that would rapidly finishing opening both sets of butterflies. Do you know if that describes the action?
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 25, 2019, 12:55:42 AM
No, it does not have three distinct steps.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 25, 2019, 04:04:25 PM
No, it does not have three distinct steps.

(http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8694.0;attach=25549;image)

Jon,
Thank you.
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: crossboss on May 25, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
Here you go...

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

Thank you,
Do you know if that cam has three steps on the action? The first step would be primary actuation only, the second step would slowly bring the secondary butterflies along with the primaries open, followed by a third step that would be the change visible in the picture that would rapidly finishing opening both sets of butterflies. Do you know if that describes the action?
John




Hey John,
Are you thinking this type of carb linkage for the 'unicorn' intake?
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 25, 2019, 04:55:29 PM
Here you go...

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/Frank/crossramfuelblockFDH-02_zps016f7370.jpg.html)
Frank Dihartce photo

Thank you,
Do you know if that cam has three steps on the action? The first step would be primary actuation only, the second step would slowly bring the secondary butterflies along with the primaries open, followed by a third step that would be the change visible in the picture that would rapidly finishing opening both sets of butterflies. Do you know if that describes the action?
John




Hey John,
Are you thinking this type of carb linkage for the 'unicorn' intake?

No the carburetors on that intake are in line with each other. The Crossram linkage layout is absolutely not useable in that configuration. I was reading with interest on this site the development between the List 4210 and the list 4295 carburetors. As a result I asked about the cam slot timing on the 4295. With Jon's picture I can see a defined two step shape on the cam slot, my two carburetors have a definite three step cam slot. The cam slot on mine is not someone's regrind but a Holley part made that way for the 302 Tunnelport engine racing program. I was just wanting to compare and Jon kindly helped me out.
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on May 26, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
? Possibly post a pic of the 3-Step style for reference ?
I do not have real parts or carbs on hand, just past Holley experience.
? 1st Design 4210 had "1:1" basically constant radius slot, except a slight primary tip-in ?
? 2nd Design 4295 2-Step "W" Slot is a "staged" design, primaries 1st x degrees, then secondaries ?
I myself have not seen a 3-Step, would be interesting to see.
My grandiose ideas, lol, "I'll make a nice 3D Model animation of the 3 styles"... LOL 
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 26, 2019, 09:19:30 PM
? Possibly post a pic of the 3-Step style for reference ?
I do not have real parts or carbs on hand, just past Holley experience.
? 1st Design 4210 had "1:1" basically constant radius slot, except a slight primary tip-in ?
? 2nd Design 4295 2-Step "W" Slot is a "staged" design, primaries 1st x degrees, then secondaries ?
I myself have not seen a 3-Step, would be interesting to see.
My grandiose ideas, lol, "I'll make a nice 3D Model animation of the 3 styles"... LOL

I just took a nice picture of the 3 step cam yesterday. It was too large to attach here, so I'll resize it and post it here.
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 27, 2019, 12:25:00 AM
John, what is the Holley LIST # for your Tunnelport carburetor(s)?

If you have trouble posting the pic let me know and I can help.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: JohnSlack on May 27, 2019, 01:19:22 AM
John, what is the Holley LIST # for your Tunnelport carburetor(s)?

If you have trouble posting the pic let me know and I can help.

It is not a Holley list # carburetor, it is one of the special carburetors that FoMoCo had Holley make for the 302 Tunnelport engine program, as such it is a race only item. I have done a lot of searching on the internet and you guys were the only source I had seen of a good picture of the 2 step cam. (Thanks to you Jon.) I had been wondering about the cam on the 4295 and now I know that. But I feel it's only fair to share my side of the story, even if it is Brand X Blue. You guys seem really open to looking at both sides of the story of what was going on with T/A.
John
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on May 27, 2019, 02:59:42 AM
Good info, John.  Yes, we are really open to learning about all sides on this forum because that paints a whole picture and not just a single facet.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on September 27, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
Am I seeing things ?...
Looks to me like that maybe the GM Mold Maker got things turned around out of place ?...
See picture, on the left is the claimed prototype Crossram that Bill Howell laid "wet flow guide ridges" in
using strips of solder and epoxy as one of the final stages of development to equalize exhaust gas temperatures.
Pictured on the right is the plenum floor of a production GM Crossram...  ?  notice the difference ?...
The plenum floor "wet flow guide ridge" pattern is not symmetrical left-to-right or front-to-back, and...
it appears the Mold Maker got it incorrectly turned around backwards when modifying the production mold ?...
Or am I seeing things ?....

And it looks like Offenhauser took the "safe route" and made the "wet flow guide ridge" pattern symmetrical...
And Edelbrock left out the plenum floor "wet flow guide ridge" pattern all together.


Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: Jon Mello on September 28, 2019, 05:35:33 PM
Yes, the factory did make a mistake which they corrected.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: crossboss on October 07, 2019, 06:17:17 PM
Jon,
It appears the Edelbrock Cross-Ram would be the better performer, as I see it. However, I have zero experience with a Chevy Cross-Ram intake. I DO have experience with the Boss 302 'Cross-Boss' Cross-Ram intake, and Inline carb. That said, the smoother runners, and less restriction will run better, no doubt. The 'bumps' on the inside will lead to fuel puddling, and can quite possibly make cylinder to cylinder air/fuel distribution non consistent aka some cylinders will run lean, while some may run rich. Yes, its a passionate and timely hobby with determination to make these things run.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: TangoBravo on October 07, 2019, 06:40:04 PM
The runners on the bottom of the manifolds were to direct fuel toward cylinders that were running leaner. The fuel comes out of suspension easily and form rivers that puddle and trickle down the long runner tubes. The channels were an attempt to even the fuel mixture on cylinders that tended to run lean and guide it away from the rich ones. Chevrolet engineering and folks like Smokey Yunick found this out and re-routed the fuel to try to improve things. Smokey even built a clear top to view when revved up full song on a dynamometer when he was investigating this. Hope he was wearing some Kevlar where it counted!
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: crossboss on October 07, 2019, 08:48:47 PM
The runners on the bottom of the manifolds were to direct fuel toward cylinders that were running leaner. The fuel comes out of suspension easily and form rivers that puddle and trickle down the long runner tubes. The channels were an attempt to even the fuel mixture on cylinders that tended to run lean and guide it away from the rich ones. Chevrolet engineering and folks like Smokey Yunick found this out and re-routed the fuel to try to improve things. Smokey even built a clear top to view when revved up full song on a dynamometer when he was investigating this. Hope he was wearing some Kevlar where it counted!



Correct. On my intake, using a not so scientific approach when it was off the engine, and the lid removed I would use a garden hose to 'see' where the water would go. As I mentioned, some cylinders ran lean, some ran rich. Removing the 'bumps' and 'dividers', and filling some areas with Devcon made all the difference in the world! Remember, this was a trial and error effort. Once I hit the sweet spot, the engine ran smoother, revved quicker, and most important, cylinder to cylinder distribution was optimized. Granted this was on a Boss 302 engine, not a small block Chevy. However, the 'theory' of air/fuel filling each cylinder equally as possible works the same on any engine.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 07, 2019, 09:53:59 PM
I am no expert, just doing research, and some things I find, or come across, or see surprise me.
So I ask the community and look forward to the discussion and can only hope to learn more.
No intention to stir things up or dispute...  only discussing...
It is my hope to gather and share some more information about this topic.

Yes, research and direct communication resulted in findings that the plenum floor "wet flow ridges" made out of strips of solder and epoxy as seen in the Prototype version pictured above were done at GM by GM Engineering to equalize "wet flow" distribution, Exhaust Gas Temperatures, and equalize all 8 cylinders on the dyno, so they were found to be needed to accomplish that.

So... the production casting flow ridges are incorrectly oriented, since they are non-symmetrical, when compared to the solder strip / epoxy prototype...  or at least it appears that way to me.  And since the production casting flow ridges are incorrectly oriented compared to those in the prototype then the production version would NOT result in equalized cylinder distribution or at least as it would seem...

I would think the Edelbrock version would be "inferior" since it contains now "wet flow equalized distribution management ridges" ?...  where GM Engineering found that they were needed and incorporated them.

I've yet to find online a picture of a production casting with the wet flow ridges oriented like those solder/epoxy ones shown in the pictured prototype.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: crossboss on October 07, 2019, 11:38:16 PM
I am no expert, just doing research, and some things I find, or come across, or see surprise me.
So I ask the community and look forward to the discussion and can only hope to learn more.
No intention to stir things up or dispute...  only discussing...
It is my hope to gather and share some more information about this topic.

Yes, research and direct communication resulted in findings that the plenum floor "wet flow ridges" made out of strips of solder and epoxy as seen in the Prototype version pictured above were done at GM by GM Engineering to equalize "wet flow" distribution, Exhaust Gas Temperatures, and equalize all 8 cylinders on the dyno, so they were found to be needed to accomplish that.

So... the production casting flow ridges are incorrectly oriented, since they are non-symmetrical, when compared to the solder strip / epoxy prototype...  or at least it appears that way to me.  And since the production casting flow ridges are incorrectly oriented compared to those in the prototype then the production version would NOT result in equalized cylinder distribution or at least as it would seem...

I would think the Edelbrock version would be "inferior" since it contains now "wet flow equalized distribution management ridges" ?...  where GM Engineering found that they were needed and incorporated them.

I've yet to find online a picture of a production casting with the wet flow ridges oriented like those solder/epoxy ones shown in the pictured prototype.



Phat-
Like yourself, I am no expert on Chevy's Cross-Ram design. Just like I am no expert on a Chrysler 'Rat-Roaster' Cross-Ram. What worked for me on the Boss 302, was by my own 'learning tricks'. Every intake is different, so as the old saying goes: "What works for me, may not for you". My only assertion would be what DID work for the Chevy racers (like Tom McIntyre's) intake. Obviously, Smokey was keen on making odd ball stuff work, and a genius. That said, Chevy's small block canted valve prototype heads were really not much better in achieving the power they desired, yet Ford did have great success with their Boss 302/351 Cleveland designs. My point is not to say whom had a 'better' design, just what worked better on a given engine combo.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: TangoBravo on October 08, 2019, 12:08:46 AM
The distribution dams were a try-it and see how it works experiment. (These type of manifold distribution corrections were done well into the 1980's at some speed shops I am aware of. Fuel comes out of suspension and needs to be channeled to try to even cylinder a/f ratios!)The dams were done with epoxy and wire (reportedly) on a set of O-dash numbered experimental developmental manifolds (reported to be 4 or 5 of them) They were being sent back and forth and developed ASAP. There was tremendous pressure to get them done fast and some were raced in the developmental configuration. When they were casting the first early production pieces, an error was made configuring the dams in the molds and the dams were reversed front to rear-an apparent last minute lay-up under duress. And undid what they were trying to do. The error was quickly corrected and the regular production manifolds were cast correctly. Wayne Guinns Crossram guide, Mark Donohues "Unfair Advantage" and Smokey Yunicks wonderful autobiography have some great insights to what was going on.
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: PHAT69AMX on October 09, 2019, 12:43:40 AM
TangoBravo and others - might you be able to say if these Distribution Dams in this claimed 1967 casting prototype on the left in this picture from the previously posted 2018 Hemmings For Sale Ad are oriented the "correct" way or are they "reversed" ? 
Title: Re: Crossram manifold
Post by: crossboss on October 09, 2019, 07:11:30 PM
Boys,
FWIW, and sorry If I go off topic. Here is the Boss 302 'Cross-Boss' lower portion of the cross ram intake. IF you look you can see the 'bumps' I was referring to that are one of the offending problems in the design near the entry of the ports. Removing them and modifying some areas with Devcon made a world of difference. Im sure the Chevy racers did similar 'mods' to correct the flow on their intakes as well.