CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: dave hanson on September 15, 2011, 08:45:56 PM
-
i have a cowl tag that reads the build date on my 1969 Z/28 as a 03D which i am told is the fourth week of march. it also has the D80 option stamped on the tag. i have been told that the D80 option was not used until at least 8 weeks after my build date. this guy claims that my cowl tag has to be a forgery therefore it is not a Z/28 !!!! is this true???
-
Dave I split your post from the other to make it easier to find.
Yes, your tag shouldn't have D80, so the tag is a reproduction. As for the car being a real Z28, you'll need to look for other clues. Unfortunately, with a repop trim tag, everything on the car is now suspect, but there's still hope. What's the VIN? We may have it in the database. Also post a picture of the trim tag if you can and the engine pad. If the engine stamping is correct, you'll still have a Z28, but with a reproduction trim tag.
And welcome to the forum by the way.
Ed
-
Dave,
Here's what CRG says about the D80 option...
"The spoiler option was not available in 1967 on any Camaro. It became available as an option on all cars (except those with a rear antenna) in 68-69. It was not mandatory on any car, except for the 69 pace car replicas and later 69 Z's. The narrower 68 spoiler was used on the 69 Camaro up to January - March of 69, when the wider 69 spoiler was phased in. One of the torsion bars on an original spoiler equipped car will be of larger diameter to compensate for the weight of the spoiler. The front center of the 69 subframe will have a drilled hole to mount the center brace of the front spoiler."
Paul
-
Paul, I believe Dave is referring to the D80 stamping on the trim tag and not the option itself.
Ed
-
i have been told that the D80 option was not used until at least 8 weeks after my build date.
Thanks Ed,
My response was based on the above sentence from Dave's question.
Paul
-
so are we saying that teh cowl tag is a forgery???
-
so are we saying that teh cowl tag is a forgery???
Forgery is a harsh word. I like the term "reproduction", but you're correct, it's not a "factory" tag.
Ed
-
Ed:
i think that it is very deceiving to sell a car as a Z/28 with a reproduction tag . i now do not know what i have.
-
Ed:
My cowl tag reads as following: ST69 12437 NOR3041388DY TR 716 51 51 PNT 03C X77D80
-
Dave, post the VIN and a picture of the engine pad and we can go from there.
Ed
-
Yes it is very deceiving to sell a car with a reproduction tag. In some cases I would say criminal. However just because the previous owner sold it with the repro tag does not mean they added it or even knew it was a fake. Unfortunately anything with collector value has become a buyer beware market. There will always be fakes and counterfits, and crooks.
-
You have to weigh the circumstance of the use of the repro tag in question. I looked at a car with a buddy who had the itch for a 69 to add to his stable. The owner presented the original cowl tag in a zip lock along with pictures of the damage it had sustained while still attached to the vehicle. It was trashed when the body shop working on his firewall caught it in the sander by "mistake". In MHO the mistake was using that body shop.
The lower GM text was trashed and the tag was distorted by the process along with one of the corners being eaten off. I truly think the sander operator was trying to sand the tag off not knowing what it was. First day on the job inexperience maybe - he looked like he was 12 in the photo's. The vehicle owner at that point made the shop owner order an exact replacement for cosmetic reasons but retained the original tag for chain of custody reasons to make sure everyone down the road understood no embellishment was done. I am willing to accept reproduction mounted tags on a vehicle under these circumstances as long as the original tag remains with the vehicle and is documented as to the situation and reasons for removing and reproducing the original, once separated or undocumented all bets are off.
So Dave as long as documentation vets out the status of the vehicle as being born Z28 03D, you would have a few options. You could retain copies of all the supporting documentation and disqualify the D80 status on the tag, or at this point since the tag is already suspect, remove it, retain it with the above mentioned documentation, and order a true replacement that agrees with the DOCUMENTATION you assemble from legit sources.
I hope she turns out to be a true Z28 ride for your sake, but if nor there is no shame in documenting her as a clone, again as long as that image is used to market her if you sell her down the road.
Just my $1.50 worth of hi-test.
-
Actually, Dave, I think you have a typo there. Isn't the trim tag top line "ST69 12437 NOR 04138BDY" ?
I am guessing this is your car:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3984Q2em1423Q2el2649QQitemZ260851006947QQsspagenameZSTRKQ3aMEWAXQ3aIT
Further, I am guessing, based on your response, that you had no idea it was a fake trim tag on the car when you purchase it.
Actually, under Oklahoma law it is technically a "counterfeit" tag... others may wish to call it reproduction, or whatever, but if it doesn't reflect the exact same info as what was on the original tag, what is it reproducing? ... guess that is a whole other topic.
You are not the first guy to be taken advantage of. I can only imagine the sick feeling in your stomach right now.
Sad thing is, there may be nothing you could do about it. But... then again, there may be.
Send me a PM if you wish.
Lynn
-
Cowl tag photo from Ebay listing...
Paul
-
Isn't the trim tag top line "ST69 12437 NOR 04138BDY" ?
NOR 304138 BDY
You made a typo too Lynn!!
Ed
-
Doh!!
I really feel bad for guys that get taken like this. What a shame.
It is easy for the more knowledgable guys to say he should have done his due diligence and had an expert look over the car... but, most of us are somewhat trusting by nature until we have a reason to suspect someone is selling us a counterfeit. I doubt Dave had any reason to believe he should investigate the tag being swapped out. Most regular guys are shocked to find out it goes on all the time.
-
lynn:
Thanks for your response. when I bought this (Z?) from a restoration shop I really thought that I was buying from the experts.
Dave
-
post some pics of the engine stamping as well. it ststed numbers matching. the vin should be stamped down by the oil filter. those pics were conveniently left out of the auction
-
If you bought that from a dealer/restoration shop I would pursue a refund. They represented the car as a Z28 so they are liable for the accuracy of the car. And It's a pretty safe bet that they changed the tag to increase the value of the car.
-
Sometimes you get lucky on these deals, and it is a slam dunk proving "whodunnit", other times it is virtually impossible to tell who swapped the tag, and when.
Here is hoping Dave can get some satisfaction. Remember, just because the tag was swapped, doesn't mean the car did not start life as a Z.
Kind of like, just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they are NOT out to get you.
-
with the info sent to you can you tell me anything as to what i have?
-
Dave: Sending you an email.
-
I hope worst case it was a GREEN/GREEN color change...
716 51 51 is a PRIMO color combo.
-
I hope worst case it was a GREEN/GREEN color change...
716 51 51 is a PRIMO color combo.
And just tell me what's wrong with a 723 57 57 car? ::) ;D
-
X77-69z28
Are you saying that on the engine block down by the oil filter there should be stamped a VIN number that should match the VIN of the body?
-
X77-69z28
Are you saying that on the engine block down by the oil filter there should be stamped a VIN number that should match the VIN of the body?
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PadStamps
-
The Body VIN should be stamped by the Oil Filter and on the pass side of the trans case... Both stampings should exhibit the same characteristics.... example... if the letter N had an abnormal upright etc in the block stamp, the trans stamp should exhibit the same abnormality.
-
Also check for these.
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN
-
dave, i hope you are lucky enough that the car just had its color changed. did you get any pics with the car of the restoration? check some of the easy stuff first. the left frear frame rail bracket for dual exhaust, see if you can get the numbers off of the engine perches as they are z-28 specific, 3/8 single fuel line, four leaf rear springs, etc
good luck
buddy
-
This helps a lot.