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Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Misse on July 29, 2011, 01:38:14 AM

Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on July 29, 2011, 01:38:14 AM
I sure would appreciate any advice you all would share with me.  I have the opposite problem as the discussion I have read here.  I own a very nice 68 Z-28.  I am being offered (from the guy who did the restoration) the orginal engine, wheels, and all orginal parts taken off during the restoration for 12K.  I am at a loss for what questions I should be asking and what documentation.  I know I need to ask for pictures of the numbers on the block.  Of the additional parts (besides the engine and wheels) which ones are the most important to the value of the car?
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on July 29, 2011, 02:21:05 AM
To the OP, let your morals guide you. If you need or want a Z block have them buy an acceptable replacement and trade straight up, if you don't then sell it to them at a fair market value. You never get anywhere for long by taking advantage of others. I don't believe you should give it to them but you shouldn't hold them hostage either it MIGHT speak to your character. What would someone gain by sticking it to somebody a few grand? What's your ethics worth, maybe some can put a price on that but not me. Just my two cents.

Misse, I am somewhat confused by the statement of "removed during restoration" I thought refinishing the original parts WAS a restoration. The engine block and the trans case are the only components that are VIN specific (I believe). The rims and other parts at date coded but not VINed. Obviously the guy with the parts is not ethical otherwise the parts would be at a reasonable price, now if he $12k worth of parts then I retract that statement, but a block, rim and some other parts don't add up for me. The other question may be why did he not return them with the car, true he could have made an agreement to keep them so they properly his. I guess I am just not a fan of hustling people. I would personally make him a reasonable offer for the block or the lot and move on if he passed. I doubt it would add 12k to the value of the car.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: 68camaroz28 on July 29, 2011, 04:47:27 PM
To the OP, let your morals guide you. If you need or want a Z block have them buy an acceptable replacement and trade straight up, if you don't then sell it to them at a fair market value. You never get anywhere for long by taking advantage of others. I don't believe you should give it to them but you shouldn't hold them hostage either it MIGHT speak to your character. What would someone gain by sticking it to somebody a few grand? What's your ethics worth, maybe some can put a price on that but not me. Just my two cents.

Misse, I am somewhat confused by the statement of "removed during restoration" I thought refinishing the original parts WAS a restoration. The engine block and the trans case are the only components that are VIN specific (I believe). The rims and other parts at date coded but not VINed. Obviously the guy with the parts is not ethical otherwise the parts would be at a reasonable price, now if he $12k worth of parts then I retract that statement, but a block, rim and some other parts don't add up for me. The other question may be why did he not return them with the car, true he could have made an agreement to keep them so they properly his. I guess I am just not a fan of hustling people. I would personally make him a reasonable offer for the block or the lot and move on if he passed. I doubt it would add 12k to the value of the car.

Misse, welcome to CRG first off! If you know who owned the car during restoration I would quickly discuss with him/her on what the arrangement was and if the person had any knowledge of the parts being kept off the car. Depending on what you find out I would discuss with law enforcement as it could be deemed the same as stealing, again depending on what you find out from the owner. Just makes no sense at all and something seems a little out of wack.....
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: sam on July 29, 2011, 07:02:38 PM
did the previous owner instruct the restorer to remove all that original stuff from the car? If he did, the person getting the restoration on his car did NOT want the parts back?
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on July 29, 2011, 09:11:14 PM
I appreciate all the responses and welcome!  When the car went through the restoration they removed the original engine (I'm not sure why) and put in a 350.  The owner I bought the car from did have the original engine, rims, and parts in his possesion when I bought the car.  The seller and the person that helped him restore the car are friends and the seller sold the engine wheels and parts to him.  Now, a little over a year later, I am being offer to buy the engine, wheels, and "every original part and bolt" for 12K.  I know I need to ask for pictures of the casting#, casting date, and engine code.  I am not experienced in these kinds of negotiations and seller is quite experienced.  I do and would appreciate any advice for what other questions I should be asking and also what would be a fair price?  When I asked of the condition of the engine at this time the response I received was "Engine is fully assembled. Just needs typical valve adjustment before running. If you know anything about the 30/30 z28 motor, it has a solid cam. This valve lash is what needs adjusted.  Very easy to do in or out of the car."
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: MyRed67 on July 29, 2011, 11:35:56 PM
Welcome Misse, I'm not sure if I missed something here or what.  If the Engine and these other parts were offered to you when you bought the car, and you are interested in them, why did you not purchase them then?   Is there a considerable $$$$ difference?
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: vtfb68 on July 30, 2011, 12:14:20 AM
The plot thickens. IMHO I feel this was the plan from the start... to  BLACKMAIL the buyer in the future. You (owner of the matching car) are the only one they can try to squeeze. It's easy for me to say "don't pay more than you would for a non matching 302", but they have you in a tight spot. Were thes parts offered to you durning the purchase?  I hate this type of BS.
 You can decline, But let THEM know you have a "friend" that might want it-(the "friend" can't be squeezed as hard).
 I sure hope this works out FAIR. Keep us posted.
  Good luck,
    Victor
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on July 30, 2011, 01:51:39 AM
Well, at least it does sound like he came by it legitimately or kinda anway. I sit assembled or rebuild? It rebuilt ask for the specs and receipts, a list of the "other" parts my help with determining the total worth of the parts. If rebuilt I could see 5k for the egnine, not sure on the rest but as mentioned date coded alternators and starters and such go for big money so if might be at least in the ball park. I have an AAR with the original engine I would pay 12k for the original in rebuilt ready to run condition, but they go for more than a 302 in equal condition, plus I have a complete T/A motor rebuilt with a warranty block so I could get my money back quickly. I would not however pay anywhere close to that for the original engine out of my son RS.

And welcome to the board, it was rude of me to miss it the first time. There are some good people here with a lot of knowledge, they even let a Mopar guy hang out without too much bashing (mostly envy). ;)
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on July 30, 2011, 03:21:59 AM
Thanks again for the responses and the welcome.  In regards to the purchase, I felt like I got a raw deal because in the original accepted offer to purchase it was for the car (as it sat with the 350 engine) plus the original engine and parts, however, when I went to pick up everything, I was only allowed the car as it sat.   I was upset but it was still a steal so I went ahead and bought it.  That is one of the reasons I feel like I am getting it stuck to me now.  I too have wondered if this was designed from the get go.  I hope to e-mail him back tomorrow and try and ask every last question I can think of.  He has let me know that if I do not buy it that with his internet marketing skills he has no doubts he will get every cent of the 12K.  Where besides e-bay do you find these types of private sellers on the internet?  If I did fork over the cash do you think I might get my money out of it if I sold the car later?  Thanks to you all for your knowledge.  I am so green in this area any further comments I would greatly appreciate as well!!
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: tom on July 30, 2011, 10:20:04 AM
Misse, Ask the seller for photos of the block casting and stamping numbers. If you get them, post them here and let the experts verify them. There has been a lot of fraud with sellers creating SS or Z models from plain janes, and selling them as the real deal. I would be reluctant to even consider a value without verification.
Welcome to the forum, and god luck.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: 68camaroz28 on July 30, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Thanks again for the responses and the welcome.  In regards to the purchase, I felt like I got a raw deal because in the original accepted offer to purchase it was for the car (as it sat with the 350 engine) plus the original engine and parts, however, when I went to pick up everything, I was only allowed the car as it sat.   I was upset but it was still a steal so I went ahead and bought it.  That is one of the reasons I feel like I am getting it stuck to me now.  I too have wondered if this was designed from the get go.  I hope to e-mail him back tomorrow and try and ask every last question I can think of.  He has let me know that if I do not buy it that with his internet marketing skills he has no doubts he will get every cent of the 12K.  Where besides e-bay do you find these types of private sellers on the internet?  If I did fork over the cash do you think I might get my money out of it if I sold the car later?  Thanks to you all for your knowledge.  I am so green in this area any further comments I would greatly appreciate as well!!
Thanks again for the responses and the welcome.  In regards to the purchase, I felt like I got a raw deal because in the original accepted offer to purchase it was for the car (as it sat with the 350 engine) plus the original engine and parts, however, when I went to pick up everything, I was only allowed the car as it sat.   I was upset but it was still a steal so I went ahead and bought it.  That is one of the reasons I feel like I am getting it stuck to me now.  I too have wondered if this was designed from the get go.  I hope to e-mail him back tomorrow and try and ask every last question I can think of.  He has let me know that if I do not buy it that with his internet marketing skills he has no doubts he will get every cent of the 12K.  Where besides e-bay do you find these types of private sellers on the internet?  If I did fork over the cash do you think I might get my money out of it if I sold the car later?  Thanks to you all for your knowledge.  I am so green in this area any further comments I would greatly appreciate as well!!

OK, I own a 68 Z/28 and know enough to be dangerous. First off, he's feeding you a line of BS, as for the engine the person it would be worth the most is you Misse, the owner of the car. But hold on, what if the engine is not really the born with engine and is a re-stamp? If you know what to look for and are knowledgeable great but if not take a picture of the engine pad and post so experts can take a peak at that rascal.  Do you know what you have or not have discussing engine, i.e. distributor, alternator, starter, heads, intake and carb? Other words does the guy have the entire engine with many of the goodies, or just a shortblock?  Things like that orig. distributor can be worth a lot of money so you need to be careful that you get everything he had for that car or he will be selling goodies to others for more profit. Some info might be helpful here as it has a lot of part numbers and info on our restoration. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on July 30, 2011, 11:14:35 AM
Where are you located maybe someone here is close enough to help you out.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on July 30, 2011, 08:29:00 PM
Thanks again for all the information!  You guys are great and I am so fortunate to have found this forum.  68camaroz28 that is a truly awesome documentation of the restoration!  I loved the story with the original owner too.  I wish I even knew what all they did to mine.  I was going to e-mail the seller of the engine and parts a list of questions but I keep thinking of more, so I probably won't get it done until tomorrow.  From what I know about this guy I am only going to get one shot at this.  Mopar I live near Dayton, Ohio and the guy that has the engine and parts is near Columbus, Ohio.  If you know anyone near by that would be fantastic!!  This guy knows I don't know what I should and I'm afraid of being taken advantage of (hence the 12K and me not being sure I am getting everything I should), so I will definitely take your advice and once I get pictures post them here for all of your opinions.  Again, thanks to you all and any further advice, it is very much appreciated!
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on July 31, 2011, 12:31:02 PM
As bazarre as it sounds, I am from Florida but I will be in Columbus the week end of the 12th for the Mopar Nationals. I could probably make some time to go with you. Although I am not as up on Chevrlets as a lot on here I am very familiar with collecting numbers and knowling what to look for. I should be able to give you Thursday the 11th if you can arrange it. There maybe someone closer and more knowledgeable that can go as well.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: 68camaroz28 on July 31, 2011, 09:25:34 PM
Thanks again for all the information!  You guys are great and I am so fortunate to have found this forum.  68camaroz28 that is a truly awesome documentation of the restoration!  I loved the story with the original owner too.  I wish I even knew what all they did to mine.  I was going to e-mail the seller of the engine and parts a list of questions but I keep thinking of more, so I probably won't get it done until tomorrow.  From what I know about this guy I am only going to get one shot at this.  Mopar I live near Dayton, Ohio and the guy that has the engine and parts is near Columbus, Ohio.  If you know anyone near by that would be fantastic!!  This guy knows I don't know what I should and I'm afraid of being taken advantage of (hence the 12K and me not being sure I am getting everything I should), so I will definitely take your advice and once I get pictures post them here for all of your opinions.  Again, thanks to you all and any further advice, it is very much appreciated!

Thanks for the kind words on our restoration. What you can do is start to check to see what you have and that way you know what he may have. What rally wheels do you have (check code under trim ring)? Check everything on the engine like starter, alternator, intake, carb, distributor, exhaust manifolds, etc. This preliminary work will also assist with anyone trying to help you out. Then post the what you have found and this CRG gang will help you. Knowing as much as possible is important and worth the time spent now.....
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on August 01, 2011, 01:19:44 AM
You guys have been awesome!  Thank you so much for your help!  Mopar I will try and make arrangements with the seller for the 11th and I will let you know what he says.  That is so nice of you to offer and I really appreciate it!  I'm going to post the e-mail I sent the seller tonight.  I hope I have covered what I should.  If he comes through and sends me the pictures I will post them to get your opinions.  Thanks Again!

I have some questions for you regarding the engine and parts.  Please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that you did the restoration of this car?  If so, do you have any documentation and/or receipts on the restoration of the car and/or engine?  Why was the original engine removed from the car and replaced with the 350?  Is the original 302 engine complete with starter, alternator, intake, carburetor, distributor, exhaust manifolds, etc.?  Has it been rebuilt and in ready to run condition?  If so, who rebuilt it and is there a spec sheet?   If it is not rebuilt is it re-buildable?  When was the last time that it was running?  If possible, I would like pictures of the engine as it sits, as well as pictures of the engine block’s casting#, date code, partial VIN#, and engine code.  I would also like some basic pictures and a list of what parts I would be buying as part of this package.  If you would also take pictures of the rally wheels and the code# under trim ring I would appreciate it.  I thank you for your time.  I am just trying to do my homework.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on August 01, 2011, 02:00:27 AM
Excellent, make sure you have a digital camera and it at all possible a video camera, that way if we forget something or have a question later we can refer to the photo and video. I have done this when documenting paint lines an colors on survivors (Mopars pof course) and it is very helpful. I will state a post and like these guys educate us as to everything we need to consider and we will be prepared as much as possible. This will be fun, I actually have a post asking for some Camaro related ideas for our vacation so you are helping me. If possible I am sure my son will want to accompany us, he is 17 and is build a 69 RS. My e-mail is mopar346@yahoo.com if you want to copy me on the e-mails.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on August 01, 2011, 05:22:41 PM
You guys have been great!  I wish the seller was as nice as you all.  Read his response and tell me what you think.  I can't believe he is not willing to send any pictures....

"This motor ran fine up until it was removed.  The reason it was removed was to ensure it was preserved as Bill intended to drive the car. The valve adjustment required is due to relieving the valve train for storage. Whomever advised you here would understand why. In the event the car was to be returned to the original condition, it could be done and all value would be saved. With a vehicle of this value, this is a common practice. As far as photos and all other items you mention here, I recommend you bring your consultant and inspect all parts. If they plan on removing trim rings from wheels or disassembling the engine for any reason there will be a non refundable deposit required in the event of any damage to the perfect condition rings and engine assembly. This deposit could be part of the overall price if there was a purchase.

As I mentioned, any and every original part that was on the car is still intact which can be returned to the vehicle. There are several boxes. "


I can get over his condensendingness and treating me like a dumb girl but I just don't get it... if he had to list the engine and parts on the internet as he stated he was going to do he would have to take pictures to do that.

Mopar... thanks again, I'd be glad to have your son along!  I'm sure I could learn a lot from both of you  :)   It looks like actually going to his house is the only way I am going to be able to verify anything.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on August 02, 2011, 12:39:36 AM
He sure is acting like a tool. What he says about protecting the original is somewhat common and relieving the valve spring pressure while sitting is also a common practice. If he wants 12k he need to be willing to remove the valve covers and trim rings, we will just have to play that when we get there. Hopefully he will reasonable in person, if you can get a name maybe I can do some research on him and find out if we have a common acquaintance that can deal with him or at least give us some insight on him. I still say you need a list of parts, I don't believe even a complete engine assembly and wheels are worth anywhere near 12k. Small stuff does add up but..... I started a thread on what we need to look at and verify. If you could list your vehicle build date on the thread so I can get some casting date ranges for the parts that would have typical been on it.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: sam on August 02, 2011, 02:33:29 AM
I agree with you Mopar. $12,000 is steep even for the orignal car. If I needed a DZ 302 for my car, and it was not original to my car why would I pay 12,000 for the wrong motor? No matter what, it still would be the wrong motor for my car. Maybe $5,000 complete if all matching for the original car the motor was from. I don't understand why the owner that did the resto di not want the motor and original parts back. I guess it was a trade off for a stronger running 350 and some newer, upgraded parts?
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: tom on August 02, 2011, 02:07:38 PM
IN my opinion, all that stuff should have been included, or at least offered with the car when you bought it. This sounds like someone just trying to milk you for money by witholding part of the car and offering to sell you the rest of it after the original sale, but your going to be nickel and dime you for every penny they can get from you. If you buy these parts, will you get a call next month about some additional parts they "forgot" they had, but for a few more thousand you can buy them now?   
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: maroman on August 02, 2011, 09:53:13 PM
Mopar, your offer is quite generous. I hope this works out the way it's supposed to. But, as a word of caution, he may be reading this as we are. You may want to discuss strategy off line.
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: IZRSSS on August 03, 2011, 12:24:01 AM
Both Tom & Doug have given you good sound advise!

This is certainly none of my business but the price you paid for the car should be revealed to someone (in private) who knows (from this site) as to what a numbers matching 68 Z sells for. The only information I can pick up from this thread is that you bought the car at a steal. If the initial price was as low as one would assume & the seller is by chance not the evil person we are making him out to be, who knows...maybe 12K is a good place to start.

On the other side of the coin...if this individual states the "Original Block" was removed then who knows what other components there are that he helped himself to. And, by the time its all said and done you've dug yourself an even deeper hole... I think Chick's reply 52 is right on the mark.

First and formost, get the seller to send you a pic of the engine stamp/pad and go from there. This in itself could save you a tremendous amount of time and energy.

BTW...Welcome!
Title: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: mopar346 on August 03, 2011, 02:35:16 AM
Mopar, your offer is quite generous. I hope this works out the way it's supposed to. But, as a word of caution, he may be reading this as we are. You may want to discuss strategy off line.

No doubt!
Title: Re: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: KurtS on August 04, 2011, 09:49:26 PM
I just split this topic into its own thread.

What matters is getting a pic of the engine pad to make sure it's real.  Jerry, Ed, or I should be able to verify it.
And then inventorying what is there: carb, alt, starter, fan, etc.

I'd make the first trip just an inspection trip unless you know it's real enough to buy it.

Ouch on the $$. How long has it been sitting?

Misse, did you buy it from Dave in MI?
Title: Re: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: Misse on August 05, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
Hi all and thanks again for all your advice, knowledge, and the welcome!  Especially to Mopar, you have really gone the extra mile and I really appreciate it!  To answer some questions here... the person I bought the car from and the person trying to sell me the parts are two different people but they are good friends.  I have asked the seller of the engine and parts for pictures and he refuses to send anything.  Even though when he first contacted me he informed me that he was about to put all items on the internet (which I'm sure would require photos).  Also, now he has declined to let me inspect the items in person on the date that Mopar was going to be available :(

I didn't buy the car from Dave in MI, but the guy I bought the car from did.  I believe he bought and restored the car around 2007.  I have the previous owner Dave's full name and address and I have been searching on the internet for phone number to try and reach him to see if the car was all original when it left his possession.  Kurt do you know this car?  Back when I bought the car, the seller I bought it from, informed me this Dave in MI used to show the car regularly.  The car sits today with a 350 in it and run beautifully and is an all around nice car, however I have always wanted to put it back original.  From what the seller of the engine and parts is telling me the only reason the original engine was removed from the car was to preserve the value of it, so nothing would happen to it and there is nothing wrong with it, however, when I asked if the engine had been rebuilt he didn't answer.  And with his weird behavior I'm not sure I am able to trust anything he says at this point.

Title: Re: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: 68Zproject on August 05, 2011, 03:38:42 AM
Trust but verify.  I don't think the price is too bad if the motor is complete.  I've had to spend quite a bit to get dated parts that were missing on mine and you have the 350 that you could sell.
Title: Re: Engine value to 1968 Z28 owner
Post by: KurtS on August 05, 2011, 06:20:14 AM
I saw the car back in 2005. It was restored then - here's a pic of the tag from back then. Looks the same.
I don't have an overall pic of the car though and I didn't record the engine code (which probably means it was not visible i.e. painted over).