CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Maintenance => Topic started by: IZRSSS on July 03, 2011, 02:17:16 PM
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Trust me when I say I hate to bring this topic up again, & again, & again! I did a search and there was a great trouble shooting guide. If anyone knows where it is please post the link. I can't get the D$#%$@ things to open. Sorry I'm in a bad mood but shmuck down the street had an all night party & I slept real good for 2hrs :(.
I already replaced the switch & relay once. Now I checked the relay again & I get vacuum from the green but not from the red @ relay switch.
Any help would be great...
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I put the word Door in search ...some topics in there...Hope this helps...last night fireworks outside by bedroom had to get up at 6:00 am...but what a beautiful morning today in Minnesota Happy 4th everyone
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...Alrighdy then, lets try this...
PURESS - thanks for helping out.
I'm guessing you get to the actuators from underneath. Spotted a plastic cover that bolts to the fender-well. Is this correct? Oh...& the check valve is fine I think. I did what John recommended, flushed it out, air dried, peaked through & saw light.
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... DjD
Administrator
Dennis Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 25,141
Blog Entries: 15
Re: 69 RS vacuum headlight testing
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You can test the headlight switch by putting a vacuum guage on the orange hose that feeds the vacuum relay. With the engine running and the lights off you should have vacuum present on the orange hose. When you turn the headlights on that vacuum should stop.
To check the vacuum relay disconnect the red and green feeding the headlights. With the engine running and the headlights off you should have vacuum on one of the 2 open ports and when you operate the override it should switch to the other open port.
Here's more on the system, I have just come into possession of a '68 AIM and will be adding more to this.
http://www.camaros.net/techref/articles/ftecref001.html
For those who are interested...this post by Dennis over at Team Camaro was by far the best! This test confirmed my switch & relay work fine. As for the actuators, the word is, if only one side slides open (doors) & the other side does not, the actuators are amiss. Not the case here. Must be a line leading to them. Maybe if I keep talking to myself long enough I'll figure it out... :-\
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You can isolate the headlight switch, manual valve and the actuators of a 69 following this posting
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1578761&postcount=3
Entire thread here: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195773
And here also: A post on 68 and my posting on the difference in 69 of the hose order. It has a picture of the switch hose order and the page from the 69 AIM. Don't yet know how to post pics here. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=196249
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Accessed the actuators to check for leaks, & red/green hose orientation. All checked out okay. Then, couldn't resist banging them around a little bit before installing the shield's.
Next checked all hoses topside for leaks & correct orientation per AIM. All checked out okay. Next cranked up the engine long enough to build up enough vacuum. Pulled the light switch and nothing. Here's where it gets really weird...even though I had tried this earlier w/o success, I again switched the red & green hoses at the relay valve & the system worked like a champ. Am I all wet or is the AIM wrong with regards to red vs green orientation at the relay?
Thanks for your help guys...the links really helped.
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I did the same thing swap the red & green hose on the vac relay,now it works fine.I think the relay is made backwards.???
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Marty - Glad it helped.
Are you running a reproduction valve or original 1969 valve?
I tend to see the same valve reproduction part listed as BOTH a 68 or 69 valve.
But folks who have the 68 AIM and original valves say its
shows the valve order as green on top, yellow, the red on the bottom.
But the 69 AIM states its valve is like traffic light red top, yellow, and green on the bottom.
I think this is where folks have gotten confused looking at 68 specs for 69, vise-versa
The actuators are identical both 68 and 69 so why they changed the valve who knows.
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I think you might be on to something. Its an OER & we all know about OER (garbage)...part # 5638498 and its listed for both 68 & 69. I will eventually switch back to the original relay to see if it works. You know what they say...if it ain't broke don't fix it. Knowing me I'll probably end up in the same predicament all over again trying to unravel spaghetti.
One thing that has always bothered me is how sluggish this system is. Perhaps 40+ yrs ago this was state of the art but waiting for these things to open & close is kinda like watching paint dry. Is there anything out there, maybe actuators that can boost the system w/o jeopardizing authenticity?
Jack...did you happen to switch your relay out with an OER or a 68?
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I decided to remove the actuator's and lubricate. This was mentioned in one of the links above so I thought I'd give it a try. It helped some so if anyone is interested here are some pics on how it was done. For those of you who have done it before please offer any additional advise.
I think these are original actuators so if anyone is interested I included additional pics. If anyone knows...are there any stamps on the original actuators? I couldn't find any.
...word of advise, if you have a digital camera take plenty of shots before you take it apart. And use a good Silicone lube, not WD-40.
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http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=542.0
Trouble shooting guide is an attachment in the second post from the top in the above link.
Sounds like you are well on the way to getting the issue resolved, but the following I have found helpful for checking the operation of the relay valve itself. It is from an earlier post of mine.
"To ensure that the relay valve (mounted on the top side of the vacuum reservoir, driver side front, inner fender) where all the vacuum hoses connect is funcitoning. On top of the relay valve, there is a manual slide switch. With the car running, sliide the switch to the open position - - the doors should open. Then slide the switch to close - - the doors should close. If not, the relay valve may be the problem.
You can also check to see that the pilot valve inside the relay valve is free to move. If you carefully feel under the relay valve, you should feel the stem of the pilot valve protruding. Carefully try to move the pilot valve stem up and down to be sure it isn't stuck. Don't push hard - the pilot valve is spring loaded against the diaphragm in the top of the relay valve. If the pilot valve is free, it should move readily. The pilot valve moves up and down sending the vacuum to the correct hoses to either open or close the doors based on the wheter the reference signal (orange striped line to the top of the relay valve) has vacuum on it (doors closed) or vacuum cut off when the light switch is pulled open (doors open).
The other probelm with the relay valve is that there is a diaphragm in the top of the valve. A busted diaphragm will make the relay valve inoperatble as well. You can check the light switch itself by removing the orange striped line to the top of the relay valve and see if you go from vacuum (switch closed) to no vacuum (switch open) with the engine running. If the vacuum switches on / off with the operation of the light switch, the switch is working.
Good news is that they have now started to supply the relay valve in the aftermarket. I have not had to use an aftermarket relay valve - still have the original one on mine, so I don't know about the quality."
Richard
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Rich,
I wish I would have been a little more patient & waited for you to chime in. It would have saved me about 8hrs of work. The pilot valve at the relay must have been stuck. I removed the two 5/16 nuts from the relay, flipped it over and worked the pilot valve stem up & down & the system works great.
One other thing...now that I messed w/the actuators I am guessing I screwed up the alignment of the doors...is this possible? The alignment is fine horizontally but now I am short on the right side (passenger) by about 3/8", where as before they were perfect ???.
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Yes i changed the vac relay thats why I swaped red & green hoses.Made backwards??I replaced both actuators even though 1 was still working.The new actuators are now leaking a little oil???Marty leave 1 of the actuaors & related parts together,while taking 1 apart, then when you reassemble you have 1 to look at,alot easier than pics!!
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Thanks Jack...I'll keep that in mind for next time, as I'm sure there will be a next time... :-\
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You can lube the inside of the actuators with high quality spray silicone.
Insert the applicator straw in the rear connector and spray a little in.
Then repeat in the front connector.
Then rotate the can clockwise counterclockwise so the rubber edge of the diaphragm inside gets covered, this is the seal on the can.
Then manually push and pull the piston a few times.
You should notice the process gets easier.
A second shot if need be but don't drown it in silicone.
Be careful if you have old cans not to dent the cans there is no way to roll the bend out.
If you find a pin hole you can seal the holes but the corrosion will continue so sooner or later you will have to buy a new can.
Piston Lube can be silicone or Petroleum Jelly. Carefully unhook the rear of the rubber boot on the piston and lube the seal on the can, then the piston.
Manually activate the piston open and close a few times to distribute the lube in the seal.
Replace the rubber boot to keep crud out of the can.
Since the rubber boots can rot and or disconnect - Replacement boots are available.
Brian
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The repop boots are not very good they dont seal over the flange on the actuator,they just kinda sit there,& when the piston moves the rod is exposed.My originals are a little torn in the middle but they seal over the flange & dont move when the piston moves.
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Any clue as to why the right door travel changed. It lacks about 3/8" from closing & I can't make that up by adjusting the door. Does the position of the Lever ASM matter while attaching the piston?
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Brian,
Thanks for outlining the proper way to lube the actuator. Nice to know there are rubber boot repops available. Guess I will have to research them as Jack brings up a good point. As you can see, mine have seen their better days.
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The rubber boots can be re-enforced with some quality electrical tape, or commercial grade film production black "Gaffers Tape" to repair breaks in the links.
The return spring was in decent shape on the right side door? Can you manually close the door or is it binding?
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Definitely binding. Like trying to adjust your hood with a block of wood wedged at the cowl.
I will check the springs latter this evening.
Just in case...any ideas on where to purchase actuators. Found these and they look pretty darn close to original...
http://www.ss396.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=KRQ-299&Store_Code=camaro6769&Category_Code=RSVACUUMCOMPONENTS
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Recomendations from previous posts on CRG suggested Classic Headquarters brand.Thats where I got mine.Seem pretty good but now they are starting to leak a little oil from them.
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That's unfortunate because its a pain to get to them. I guess there is always a risk with most items. Thanks for the heads up.
BTW, was the movement/speed in which the doors open & closed improved? Mine are still like watching paint dry...
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The speed of the actuators is pretty quick,I dont know for how long.Im so used to accessing those things its no big deal anymore,take off the tire , lots more room to work.The only problem I have is putting the wire clip on the front of the actuator,even thats getting a little easier!!I love those hidden headlights no matter how much a PITA they are.They give the car a great L 8) 8)K!! I could do without the AC though,but it was there originally.Good luck!
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Marty
Here (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=626.msg9497#msg9497) is what Jerry M had to say about the actuators. Don't know if they are still available from Ricks.
Steve
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Thanks Steve...I'll give them a call to see if they are still available!
...Gave Rick's a call. They no longer carry the high torque actuators :'(. I found several strange looking actuators on-line. If these are the same type Jerry is referring to they are a totally different design, and run anywhere from $850.00 to $1000.00.
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I got mine at Ecklers formerly "Ricks" They were $160.00 for the pair!!They were pretty much exactly like my originals.Check out Classic Headquarters on the internet.
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I bought mine last in 1982 NOS GM on the shelf at Bristol's Chevrolet.
Classic HQ is making a reliable replacement that has a 1 year warranty and come pretested. Uses new tooling, and quality steel. $84.95
http://secure.classichq.com/68-69-RS-HEADLAMP-VACUUM-ACTUATOR--P485C59.aspx
Rick's also selling these new tooling versions from Classic HQ but cheaper at $79.99. http://www.rickscamaros.com/camaro-headlight-door-vacuum-actuator-rally-sport-rs-1968-1969.html
Classic Industries sells a different tooling replacement manufactured by/for OER - no warranty, $79.99. And we all have our opinions of the quality of any OER product.
But a fresh set of hoses, good vacuum from your intake manifold, new or rebuilt hose bib on the headlight switch, lubed bell-cranks, and silicone lubed canisters, and PJ on the pistons and sealed dust boots make the doors as quick, and reliable as a vacuum system can be.
I love the mechanical pace of the doors on a 68 or 69 vacuum system. I find the electric conversion units too quick, and way too loud to fit the late 60's vibe of the car's design. :)
As to the binding situation I would check the piston connection and make sue the clip its making contact with anything, could the hose have gotten in the way? Basically look at everything you took off and put back on.
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Brian,
Thanks for outlining the proper way to lube the actuator. Nice to know there are rubber boot repops available. Guess I will have to research them as Jack brings up a good point. As you can see, mine have seen their better days.
http://secure.classichq.com/68-69-RS-ACTUATOR-RUBBER-BOOT-ONLY-P486.aspx $7.95
http://www.rickscamaros.com/camaro-headlight-door-vacuum-actuator-shaft-dust-boot-rally-sport-rs-1968-1969.html $8.99
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Brian,
Seems like you've done this a time or two. Appreciate the info!
Thanks again Jack!
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mine and anybody else who says "wow you got yours to work? Can you fix mine too?" LOL
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The best way to trouble shoot the system is to have a vacum pump,starting & shutting off the engine is a pain, just trace out the system like you would an electrical circuit.Plug the pump at the intake manifold hose & start from there.
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Here is the reason for the 3/8" gap on the right headlight door. Its amazing how these cars can make fools out of you. The slop on the canister bracket bolt holes and the slight change in mounting position didn't allow the piston to pull the door shut.
Thanks for the help guys!
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Marty, Great information. I won't even thought of looking at that.
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Here is the reason for the 3/8" gap on the right headlight door. Its amazing how these cars can make fools out of you. The slop on the canister bracket bolt holes and the slight change in mounting position didn't allow the piston to pull the door shut.
Thanks for the help guys!
over 40 years of wear always wins. :)
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Thanks Rick!
40yrs of...yup!
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I know this is an old thread, but I found it helpful.
I would add, to get the most travel out of your actuator -keep the bracket bolts loose and manually close the headlight door as far as it will go. ( you may need someone to hold it closed for you if your springs are attached) then tighten up all the bolts. This also goes for the triangle bracket that you can view underneath, that the door rod pivots on. make sure those bolts are loose with the actuator before tightening. For my white 69, it helped a great deal to lube all the joints, and to make sure they were as friction free as possible. You may have to make small tweaks here and there to get the geometry right where nothing is binding. I thought I had a vacuum leak after replacing a few parts, but it was just the parts poorly aligned. Hope this helps fellow RS guys.