CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: blownonfuel on November 30, 2009, 05:39:45 PM
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Hello. I want to bring my 68 rs/ss back as close to period correct as I can since I do not have the original engine or transmission. My car was a L48 auto car to start with and I would like to get it back to that state. I have found a couple of "MU" blocks that will need sleeves due to cylinder bore sizes,pitting,etc. I guess my question is, is it really worth it for me to get the "correct" engine block with the correct stampings or just get a 010 block and stick "291" heads on it and enjoy the car. I plan on keeping my car and enjoying it but would like to get it as close to original as I can. What would you do? How much would the car's value increase with a "MU" engine?
Thanks
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Probably not the answer you are looking for, but my attitude is: who cares what the change in value is? Since you want to get as close to original as possible and you plan to keep the car and enjoy it, I say go for it. The ability to say, "This is a technically correct car for the period." is invaluable. That's my experience.
Best of luck.
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Thanks John.
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my 68 rsss l48 didnt have the original block when i purchased so i bought the next best thing a 68 z28 mo 302 to go in it .man those 302s are expensive but at least they will not hurt the value of my car probably can get more money than if i had the original motor simply for the 302 motor.what does anyone else think?
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I agree that you should go for the correct block. I'm restoring a '69 SS350 and I'm searching for an L48 block as well. I will enjoy the car much more knowing it is as close to original as possible when I'm finished with it.
Steve
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Thanks for the input. Funny thing is that they made many more L48s than either the 302 or 396 but it seems I can find them easier than a L48. Go figure.
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I'll put my "Legends" concours judging hat on and give my best professional opinoin. If you want to have the most technically correct car if the OEM engine is gone, then a dated correct original engine is the best way to increase the value of the car and authenticity of the car. Next would be to install a restoration block, this is one that the casting date lines up with the car with restamped engine assembly numbers and vin numbers.
CE blocks do not have any value from a restoration stand point unless you have the dealer installed paperwork that came with the car. Having a CE block in a restored Z28 or SS, COPO, etc will net you very little points. Only thing worse than a CE block would be an over the counter Target motor from GM.
Hope this helps,
Jerry
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Thanks Jerry. If I can't get the correct block I will probably go with a correct casting and leave it at that. I don't see the point of getting restamps, if it is not it is not. I don't plan on showing or selling the car, I just want to get it close to what it once was and enjoy it. It will never be a numbers matching car unless some miracle happens and I find the original engine somewhere. Most of the "MU" block i have found either need sleeves due to many overbores or they are not even sure what the cylinder will look like since they have lots of rust. It's looking more and more like I might just find a "678" block and some "291" heads and enjoy it.
BTW, what are the plans for the "off" season and the Z28? More dyno time?
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jerry wouldnt a period correct mo 302 add just as much value to the car as the original engine?that was my thinking if i dont have the numbers matching engine then a 302 would be the best alternative for increased value considering the rarity and expense of 302s
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A correct engine be the best alternative. But it still is an alternative. Nothing is as good (or valuable) as the original engine with the partial vin. (that includes re-stampes). An original 302 might add more value, but in my opinion that would be because a real 302 has a higher resale value than a correct L48.
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resale i guess is what i was looking at ive seen 500 dollar cars with a dz or mo 302 sale for more than 8000 bucks.do you think that a 302 is the most valuable small block or would the corvette lt1 be?
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when talking about this subject 2 term's alway's come up nowaday's
#1 NUMBER'S MATCHING
#2 ORIGINAL (BORN WITH)
these two term's are burned into the public's mind just like a 1969 camaro COWL HOOD , we all know that a 1969 camaro hood was named ZL2 COLD AIR HOOD by GM but the public RENAMED IT ! , COWL INDUCTION was for a chevelle, that's the best way I know to describe this , trying to tell someone that a correct date coded engine that fit's a car's build is not number's matching IS FUTILE ! YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME ,
anyway term #1 NUMBER'S MATCHING to the public mean's a car has an engine and or transmission that is the correct number code and date for the car which is what you will have if you find a block that fit's your car's build date and is correct for your car , AND THIS DOE'S ADD VALUE TO A CAR !
term #2 ORIGINAL (BORN WITH) to the public mean's that the car has the original motor and or transmission that it left the factory with ,
I read your first post and the thing that would make up my mind whether or not to do this or not would be the way that you know a 1968 camaro is an RS/SS ? the car's were not coded the only thing that the vin and cowl tag tell's you is what color it was and whether it was a six cyliner or V8 , if you have the protect-o-plate for the car and the fact that it is an RS/SS is solid then YES I would definately find a number's matching engine for it ,
if you do not have the protect-o-plate or some other way (NOT SURE WHAT THAT WOULD BE) to prove it is an RS/SS I would NOT worry about finding a block to match the car's date because it won't matter ,
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Jonboy, Yes, that is what I said. A dated correct engine is the best for any original high performance Camaro. I'm speaking as to having a car judged in the "Legends" certification. If I owned a car without it's original engine, I would want one that was an original engine dated correct for my car.
The whole number's matching word terminology has been tainted thanks to the auction houses and classic car dealers. 20 years ago, number's matching meant original drive train. Since that time when I'm doing inspections, I have to ask the seller if it's the original drive train installed by Norwood. Doing that leaves no wiggle room.
Jerry
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I always considered number matching to include the partial vin stamp on the drivetrain. A correct but not the original, would be "period correct" in my book.
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Thanks Brad for the advise. I'm not sure a protecto plate these days ensures you have a legit car anyway, it seems these days everything can be faked. I know my car is a true SS/RS since I bought it way back when way before the clone or restoration craze began, I have photos and witnesses to prove it, regardless I think you are correct as far as my situation goes. I am leaning on a LT1 short (because I found one cheap) and "291" heads and just enjoy the car. If a "MU" block comes along for the right price then maybe I'll go for it but for now I just want to drive my car again.
Thanks for all the advice from all of you.
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vintage photo's are GREAT DOCUMENTATION ! they can prove an RS or SS pretty easy ,
say could you post some of those vintage pic's ? love e'm !
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I'll have to dig them up. I'm sure the pictures would make many here cringe. I bought the car, well actually my parents bought me the car when I was a freshman in H.S. (early 80's) and the guy that owned before me in the 70's was into the fender flair/CanAm look. The car had some ugly flairs and the top of the rear quarter panels were flaired into the rear spoiler. It probably had a few pounds of bondo and paint thinner cans making up the flairs. I'll dig them up, where can I post them?
Thanks
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best way to post pics is load them to photobucket then post them here , I bet that car had some a dem cool luminum slots too ! jack e'm up in the back paint the inner fender well's orange , shackle's in the back I bet !
I guess the movie corvette summer caused some of that !
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I just scanned a few of them and uploaded them to Picasa Web Album. You will see some pics of the front end of my car smashed up, this was due to a guy with a horse trailer running a red light, it was too late for me to stop. You will also see some pics of the "new" front end and my racing days. Those days are over, time to put it back as it was and enjoy it. The car is in primer now so it does not look as rough as it did once. Please remember those pics are from 20 plus years ago and I was in H.S. working part time as a dishwasher so the car was rough not nice like what you see on here. I am glad I held on to it all these years and never chopped it up when I raced it. I still have all the deluxe interior,PS,PB,A/C,12 bolt rear,etc. The car was originally light green with black vinyl top. I plan to put it back that way.
http://picasaweb.google.com/blownonfuel/68Camaro#
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I uploaded a few more. The car with the Huggar Orange front end is what the car looks like at this point. This was taken back in the early 90s and before I was married and had kids. Back to original and cruising, I hope.
http://picasaweb.google.com/blownonfuel/68Camaro#
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cool , I like the 55 2dr hrdtp REAL GOOD !
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I'm with Jerry on this one. If the "born with " block is gone, IT'S GONE. The most correct thing you could do is to find a correct casting and dated block as a replacement. Even if you found a MU block it would be difficult to have it also date correct. Possible, but very hard. It would still have an incorrect vin on it. The only thing better would be to deck it and restamp with your vin and production date and MU. I know many people out there have a problem with that and I appreciate that aspect also, but that would make the most correct restoration,( as it came from the factory) which is what we all strive for, right? It's a shame that the honesty factor sometimes looses out to the almighty buck. When these car's weren't worth so much it wasn't much of an issue, but that's the times we live in. By the way on the MO block issue, really the blocks are the same, came from the same foundry, are machined the same, only that stamp is different. I'm pretty sure I am correct on that and please correct me if I spoke in error. Well i'll get off my soapbox now and everyone have a happy holiday!
Clem
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By the way on the MO block issue, really the blocks are the same, came from the same foundry, are machined the same, only that stamp is different. I'm pretty sure I am correct on that and please correct me if I spoke in error. Well i'll get off my soapbox now and everyone have a happy holiday!
Clem[/size]
All MO (Z/28) blocks were cast at the Saginaw Foundry and machined/assembled at Flint V-8; MU (L-48) blocks were cast and assembled at both Flint and Tonawanda.
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still which small block is the most valuable the 302 or the corvettes lt1? i dont have the original block with my 68 rsss but i want to make the car as valuable as i can thats why i have the mo to go in it.am i thinking wrong on the resale value?
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Jonboy I say the 302 is worth more. Especially a 67 or 68 302. That's my opinion.
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John,
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John'
Thanks for the correction on my statement about the blocks. Learn something every day. Just for my information though, are the castings and machining for the MO blocks any different than the MU blocks. Were the MO blocks from the Saginaw foundry for any particular reason such as better quality or different material content? They all have the same casting numbers, correct? Thanks for any info you can share.
Oh, sorry about the last post, fat fingered the keyboard. Clem
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John'
Thanks for the correction on my statement about the blocks. Learn something every day. Just for my information though, are the castings and machining for the MO blocks any different than the MU blocks. Were the MO blocks from the Saginaw foundry for any particular reason such as better quality or different material content? They all have the same casting numbers, correct? Thanks for any info you can share.
Oh, sorry about the last post, fat fingered the keyboard. Clem
There's no difference between an MO and an MU block, and neither was handled any differently at the foundry or at the engine plant. The foundry had no clue what the block was going to end up as, and neither did the machining department at the engine plant; the block had no identity until it reached the engine assembly line, where the assigned suffix determined what kind of innards it was to receive (crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, heads, intake, water pump, etc. and the pad was stamped with the assembly date and suffix after the heads went on.
In '69, the ultimate identity as a "DZ" block was determined in the machining department, as the block was drilled for 4-bolt main caps.
All solid-lifter small-blocks for Corvettes and Camaros were built at Flint V-8; Tonawanda only built hydraulic-lifter small-blocks. There was no difference in the casting material at the two different foundries - all castings for Flint V-8 came from the Saginaw Foundry (45 minutes away by the captive internal truck fleet that ran 24/7), and Tonawanda's foundry was on the same site as the engine plant.
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Jerry,
For judging/value and authenticity, if one has a dated correct original engine, what is the acceptable window for the date? Can it be after the build of the car?
Thanks, Steve
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In '69, the ultimate identity as a "DZ" block was determined in the machining department, as the block was drilled for 4-bolt main caps.
John'
There were also 350 4 bolt engines in 69 so what was the difference between the 302 4 bolt main and the 350 4 bolt main?
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Crank,Cam?
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In '69, the ultimate identity as a "DZ" block was determined in the machining department, as the block was drilled for 4-bolt main caps.
John'
There were also 350 4 bolt engines in 69 so what was the difference between the 302 4 bolt main and the 350 4 bolt main?
No difference at all - the 4-bolt blocks were the same until the innards were installed to match the intended application; technically, there's no such thing as a "DZ block" - it wasn't a "DZ"-suffixed engine until it got to the end of the engine assembly line. Prior to that, it was just another 4-bolt block.
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If the original motor is gone! The next best option, "In My Opinion" is a close time frame built motor, out of a like car. That having the correct casting numbers, and engine suffix,for that time frame. Essentially the same car ,built around the same time frame. The vin number will never match, but this is close as you can get with out commiting fraud! (Remember ,these motors were never installed in sequence with relation to vin's)......DON
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(Remember ,these motors were never installed in sequence with relation to vin's)......DON
Just to clarify, nobody in the assembly plant paid any attention to block casting dates or engine plant-stamped assembly dates; they just yanked the correct part number engine assembly out of the shipping rack, hung it on the engine dress line, and stamped the car's VIN on it that it was going to meet up with.
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Having a CE warranty block in my 69 Z11, and Keeping it right where it is, I'd like to propose that a change be made from Chevrolets warranty designation CE "Chevrolet Engine" to CE "Cousin Eddie".
I also propose that during the month of December that all owners with Cousin Eddie's hidden under the hood raise a Billy Beer in acceptance of our black sheep status in the Chevrolet family. The other eleven months of the year we can all go back to ignoring they exist.
JohnZ, can I get a second on the motion ;D
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does anyone think that a MO 302 would add just as much value to a car as the original l48? that was what i did when i found out my wifes 68rsss l48 didnt have its original born with engine.i thought if i didnt have the original then the most expensive sbc was the mo 302 to keep the cars value as high as posiible.was that the wrong way to look at the situation?
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In my opinion in the case of the MO 302 in a RSSS car it would be more of the some of the value of the parts. An MO 302 is worth more than an L48 in most cases but the original L48 engine would increase the value of the car more than the MO 302.
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does anyone think that a MO 302 would add just as much value to a car as the original l48? that was what i did when i found out my wifes 68rsss l48 didnt have its original born with engine.i thought if i didnt have the original then the most expensive sbc was the mo 302 to keep the cars value as high as posiible.was that the wrong way to look at the situation?
The highest value was gone when the origional engine was. Now it's a 68 with the wrong motor. As stated it's presently the sum of the parts. It could be worth more to a buyer if it had an L-78 in it they needed for another car, or not. If none of this made a difference then origionality would not be desireable and demand more money.
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I also propose that during the month of December that all owners with Cousin Eddie's hidden under the hood raise a Billy Beer in acceptance of our black sheep status in the Chevrolet family. The other eleven months of the year we can all go back to ignoring they exist.
JohnZ, can I get a second on the motion ;D
Yup - I'll drink to that! :-)
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If the original motor is gone! The next best option, "In My Opinion" is a close time frame built motor, out of a like car. That having the correct casting numbers, and engine suffix,for that time frame. Essentially the same car ,built around the same time frame. The vin number will never match, but this is close as you can get with out commiting fraud! (Remember ,these motors were never installed in sequence with relation to vin's)......DON
I suppose we could take this one step further . If you replace any part on your restored car with part that was not born with the car and fail to divulge that information you are committing fraud.