CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Buddy on December 19, 2008, 02:28:16 PM
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I need verification on the first primer coat as stated in the CRG document http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml , the second high build coat is called out as Gray.
I assume the first primer coat was GRAY also, and that the undercarriage when the car was complete was this first coat of primer(Gray) and the overspray from the body color and rocker blackout when used.
Is this correct?
Thanx
Buddy
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The first prime coat (at least at Norwood) was red oxide - see photo below of my 02D '69.
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Was this true in Feb 67?
Thx
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My car is a feb 67 LOS car, anybody know the 1st coat primer color?
Thx
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my 12d 67 norwood car was red oxide.
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So do both of you have red oxide showing underneath your cars with body color over spray around the edges?
Thanx
Buddy
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Hi , my january 69 SS 350 from norwood had Gray primer , and the car had all the original orange paint when i striped it .
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The grey usually shows up on the floor pans and under the trunk floor... some cars have more.
(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/44169/2603272950059464720S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2603272950059464720WcHHck)
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(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w97/cgrady13/IMG_1521.jpg)
Ok, It looks like Red Oxide was the overall primer for the entire car.
It looks to me that where the primer has been worn away?, the blackish color is possibly from the chemical processes before paint?
Someone help me with what I am looking at.
JohnZ, can you describe this?
Thanx
Buddy
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what year is that car? and what color is the exterior?
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67 Red Exterior w/Gold interior. Look at the following link, the red is primer not paint color. Just my luck the car would be red so to skew the difference. :-[
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145784
Thx
Buddy
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JohnZ, can you describe this?
Thanx
Buddy
Typical underbody showing red oxide primer.
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John
I was referring to the Dark Gray or Black coloring. Where is it from? Did any chemical treatments in assembly cause this dark coloring or is it road grime?
Thx
Buddy
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The greyish black looks like flow coat primer or the like... black out paints, different color paints, clearing nozzels... who knows what could have happened... some of the line guys were jokers.
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John
I was referring to the Dark Gray or Black coloring. Where is it from? Did any chemical treatments in assembly cause this dark coloring or is it road grime?
Thx
Buddy
Isn't the black the first etch coat in the process and the red oxide primer in your pic minimal coverage? Like the epoxies I use today. I did not think they just blew on lacquer primers over the bare prepared metal. According to the assembly process this is what is indicated.
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That red car is an LA built car isn't it. They were on an overhead rack when they got painted so they were higher off the ground then a Norwood built car which was sitting on a truck on the ground when it was painted. Hence they got more primer and body color overspray on the undercarraige of the car then a Norwood built car would.
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The assembly process states that primer was the first paint coat on the car. There is a Phosphate stage before prime, did this create the Dark color in the pic? What color did the phosphate stage turn the bare metal?
Buddy
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The assembly process states that primer was the first paint coat on the car. There is a Phosphate stage before prime, did this create the Dark color in the pic? What color did the phosphate stage turn the bare metal?
Buddy
I believe it is flowcoat primer which is the same color as the inner fenders, rad support, etc!
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The Assembly process doc does not state this? Whats up?
Buddy
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The Assembly process doc does not state this? Whats up?
Buddy
The body shell (at Fisher Body) and the front sheet metal (at Chevrolet) were primed differently. In both cases, when the body (or sheet metal) left the pre-clean and phosphate system, it was a natural steel color (light silvery gray). The body was spray-primed with red oxide primer, followed by primer-surfacers, then color. The Chevrolet front sheet metal was dip-primed (or flow-coated) with black primer, then sprayed with primer-surfacer, then color (as described in the Chevrolet Paint Shop section of the Assembly Process paper). The Fisher Body Paint Shop section describes how the body shell (from the firewall back) was painted, and the Chevrolet Paint Shop section describes how the front sheet metal was painted.
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That is exactly what I read. So, Why is there black with the red oxide under the car??????????????
Process=
1. Cleaned (raw metal}
2. Phosphate (grayish raw metal}
3. Primer (red oxide)
4. Primer surfacer (Gray)
5. Body Color (red in this case)
There is no black here???????
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Hi , my 69 made in norwood was light gray primer for the body shell and doors , no trace of red oxide primer , and the front fender was black primer under the orange paint , that prove the car was originally paint in two different place , body in fisher and front clip at norwood ?????? correct me JohnZ if i am wrong
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I am talking about a 67 Camaro LOS car. Can anyone here answer this?
Thx
Buddy
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What month production is your car?
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February...thx
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Who knows...
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Buddy, I have been researching this topic for years, but had put it on the back-burner for other topics until I read this post. Personally I have yet to see any 67 built in the LOS plant using red oxide primer as its base prime coat, and very few NOR built cars until 1969. What you are seeing in the picture of the floors on the car at Team Camaro is the body color overspray and not red oxide primer. I just sold an 01C LOS car that was red and the floors looked just like this one, covered in red body color not red oxide primer. The primers on that car were all greys: dark grey (black) base prime, with lt.grey being the topcoat sealer. Why I think most would think that this is red oxide primer is that when the red overspray of the body color hits the darker gray it will turn it an orangish/brown color from where it bites into the undercoat. If the owner of that car waxed those red areas he would find it is body color. Red is the hardest body color to distinguish from red oxide primer in 67 & 68 is those reds had an orange tint to them more than the 69 Garnet Red.
As Mark stated above, usually the overspray on the floorpans of the LOS cars was heavy as compared to the NOR built cars, so the picture of the car on Team Camaro can be confusing. Another good place to look for the primer overspray is in the shock tower area. The picture below is from the 67 I am restoring now, it is an LOS built car and no red oxide primer used at any time. Take some pictures of the underside of your package tray area, but set your flash to use the "red eye" reducer so you do not get any harsh light reflections. Doing this should show you the colors of primers used on your car. I had always thought that the topcoat sealer color had something to do with the final color of the car, and I am still leaving that option open. The first cars I have found with red oxide or "ruddy brown" primer/sealers to be predominantly used were in 69, but I have seen just as many with dark grey/black. I do not totally agree with John's statement in the article that red oxide was the base primer, at least not for all years and both plants. I have seen more cars with dark grey (black) than any other color for its base primer in the first gen Camaros.
To answer your latest question, the dark color is the primer surfacer first applied after the phosphating is done. What color is your car? Also what is the exact build date 02? ....................RatPack.............................
*** Anyone with an urestored car that has not had any restoration work to the undercarriage or floors other than being washed, I would like some pictures for a future CRG article regarding this topic. Please send me a private message and I will give you my email address where to send the pictures to. All years of 1st gens are wanted, including Firebirds.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/ratpack68/packagetrayunderside.jpg)
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Can you take a good clear photo of a few of the drain plugs from the bottom? If they are dirty please clean them but do not take off any overspray if there is any...
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FINALLY...Thank you so much everyone for your help..it seems like it has taken forever to figure this out. DP90 should do the trick don't you think?
02B Madeira Maroon N-N..I will attach my Trim Tag
Yee Haw!!!
Thx
Buddy
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Yep DP90 is a good choice for durability and it is self-etching which eliminates a step. Be sure to do any bodywork that you need to before spraying that DP90. We used DP90 on the bottom of the car I am doing now right after it was media blasted. Did the bodywork on the few dents and rust pits, then topcoated it with a sealer from Martin-Senour. I don't have the number off hand but I am heading to the body shop right now and I will get if for you later tonight. It dries to an eggshell finish and is waterproof once it hardens, unlike most primers. Good luck with your car!!!...........RatPack..........
Firstgen, done removed the drain plugs, but they were installed before the car was painted, they did have white/tan/orangish colored body sealant, they had lots of overspray on the inside of the car and some on the outside. My 68 was the same way. I think I have some pictures of them from inside the car, none from outside that I know of.....sorry.............
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Thanx.. I would like the paint # for the clearcoat when you get a chance.
(http://www.amtsinc.com/images/trim%20tag2.jpg)
Thx
Buddy
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Here are a couple of shots of floor pan plugs on an original LOS '69.
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Rat Pack... I was refering to buddy... I just wanted to see how much red overspray was on the bottoms of his floor pan plugs...
I wanted to see if it was consistant and the spray patterns similar to the red on the bottom of his car... I believe you are correct, it would only add confirmation.
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JohnZ, What is the color code of that car? Thanks, Cory
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Rat Pack... I was refering to buddy... I just wanted to see how much red overspray was on the bottoms of his floor pan plugs...
I wanted to see if it was consistant and the spray patterns similar to the red on the bottom of his car... I believe you are correct, it would only add confirmation.
Oh sorry about that.... I got your email and checked out those pictures. I will get with you in the next few days abot them. Thanks.
JohnZ, What is the color code of that car? Thanks, Cory
John, I too would like to know what the color of this car is? Thanks........RatPack......
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I think that's Fred Ficarra's Hugger Orange '69.
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John, that is what I thought it was. Man those LOS built cars had lots of overspray. This 67 Z's floors were just about yellow. The sides of the tunnel were covered in body color. We didn't go back that heavy on the overspray, but maybe we should have?........ You know how the judges are at shows, they don't want what is correct, they want "pretty"....JK!....LOL!!!! :P .............RatPack.............
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I think that's Fred Ficarra's Hugger Orange '69.
Looks like 68 corvette bronze to me.
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Firstgenaddict
That was not my car but an original I found on the net to figure out my questions.
Sorry, I wish that was mine:)
Buddy
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I think that's Fred Ficarra's Hugger Orange '69.
Looks like 68 corvette bronze to me.
That's the color (Corvette bronze) it looked to me as well....
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*** Anyone with an urestored car that has not had any restoration work to the undercarriage or floors other than being washed, I would like some pictures for a future CRG article regarding this topic. Please send me a private message and I will give you my email address where to send the pictures to. All years of 1st gens are wanted, including Firebirds.
Here's some photos of the floors of my car when it was being done, just wiped down, no touch-up yet. 68 LOS 12D I just cleaned them with lots of 409, touched up the rusty spots with either a clear rust converter or Eastwoods flat black rust encapsulator, and left them alone. Didn't want to mess up all the factory drips & runs or color-car is Sequoia Green, floor color has a good greenish/metallic tinge to it. Got dinged for having "Painted Plugs" Oh well, just how it was and not changing it.
RatPack, will PM you, have a few more.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/pex68/DSC00272.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/pex68/DSC00334.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/pex68/DSC00340.jpg)
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If I'm not having a memory glitch, I think DP90 can also be thinned down to be used as a final step sealer prior to color as well as a first coat for the treated metal...
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here is two 69 , 1 lemans blue and other rally green
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2331/69yenko03ey9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4333/4677690751893originalex8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4677690751893originalex8.jpg/1/w430.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img132/4677690751893originalex8.jpg/1/)
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Are those LA or Norwood cars? and what month build?
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I don't know , that are pictures from legendary motor car in Ontario Canada
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If that Rally Green car is a Z then it is a Norwood car. I couldn't find it on their site anymore. Where did you find the underside of the Lemans Blue car on their site? Thanks for the pictures.....RatPack.........
Pex68, were your inner wheelhouses undercoated at the rear? My 10E LOS car had no undercoating the rear wheelwells and the runs in the primer were unbelievable! I have the same amount of runs on the bottom of the car as yours does and my floors and drain plugs were Seafrost Green. Check your private messages..................Thanks!!!
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Inner wheelhouses were undercoated.
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The picture of the lemans blue is on their site , you click restauration , just on upper page , then it's the 69 camaro yenko
http://www.legendarymotorcar.com/legendary.php?obj=currentrestoration
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09A (1969) NOR car after pressure wash.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/100_2530.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/100_2531.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/100_2532.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/100_2533.jpg)
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Nice shots dave... I'm going to paint the LB 10D Z this week... maybe tomorrow... it's in the booth!
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05C Los Angeles car, Red primer. first time the interior has been disassanbled.I have many pictures but can not post on this site.
Victor
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I have many pictures but can not post on this site.
Victor
Use the "reply" button (not the "Quick Reply"), and click on "Additional Options" to add your photos to your post directly from your hard drive; note the image size limitation and number of images per post limitation. :)
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here is two 69 , 1 lemans blue and other rally green
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2331/69yenko03ey9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4333/4677690751893originalex8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4677690751893originalex8.jpg/1/w430.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img132/4677690751893originalex8.jpg/1/)
I know this is an old thread but in the process of re-restoring my 67 5B NOR ragtop and wanting to return the underbody to the correct finish method, I have been studying this topic in detail for a long time and have also read the 'Process Overview' article many times. When I restored the car back in the mid 80's I scuff sanded and sprayed the under body semi gloss black for the clean look. I remember seeing yellow but I never kept record of how much.
Now I want to undo that. No matter where in the undercarriage I sand I uncover the following layers (going from top layer to bare metal).....top layer--> black (my paint from the 80's) --> butternut yellow (original body color and paint) --> red oxide primer layer--> what looks like a dark gray or black very thin layer (phosphate?) --> bare metal. There is no gray to be found underneath so far as reports suggest should be there and overspray over that.
What stumps me is the whole bottom has a layer of butternut yellow including deep inside the tunnel at the top...as if the whole bottom was sprayed. I figured the robotic sprayers would hit the bottom edges mainly and not so much up and into the tunnel top.
These pictures, especially the green example, prove to me that it is possible to have an almost underbody color the same as the top coat. It may sound anal but I am so relieved to see this example and know it can happen. :)
Mike