CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: jeff68 on September 12, 2008, 04:08:18 PM
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Does anyone know a good place to have an AC fuel pump rebuilt? I have purchased 2 different rebuilt pumps through Rick's, and both of them have looked horrible. The casting on the first one actually had through holes in it. The casting on the second one had a lot of porosity and just looked bad for a 'show quality' pump. I can only assume that these are Goat Hill Classic pumps, since the part number on the box starts with "GHC".
I would like to have my original AC logo pump rebuilt, or find a source for a nice looking rebuilt unit.
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The original crimped-bottom pumps were never designed to be rebuilt; I wouldn't put a rebuilt crimped pump on my car, for safety reasons.
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The original crimped-bottom pumps were never designed to be rebuilt; I wouldn't put a rebuilt crimped pump on my car, for safety reasons.
What do you think of these units being sold by Heartbeat City? I was considering purchasing one but now have reservations after considering your post.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270282003391
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The original crimped-bottom pumps were never designed to be rebuilt; I wouldn't put a rebuilt crimped pump on my car, for safety reasons.
John, I don't see any inherent danger other than the possibility of leakage. Is that the safety concern? If so, I would think close monitoring wouldn't be too big a burden especially if the car is not driven too much, like mine.
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Leaking fuel is most definitely a safety concern.
Jimmy V.
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Leaking fuel is most definitely a safety concern.
Jimmy V.
Let me rephrase that, Its either gonna to leak or its not, just as a new pump could, and can be easily monitored. JMO. Personally, I'm running an aftermarket Carter on my car.
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The guy who rebuilds the non-rebuildable pumps (Goat Hill Classics) doesn't have the same kind of tooling to crimp the bottom of the pumps that AC used originally; I wouldn't risk the fuel leakage on my car.
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Is there a source for Rebuild Kits for the 'screwed on base' AC pump? like a 4460 unit?
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The guy who rebuilds the non-rebuildable pumps (Goat Hill Classics) doesn't have the same kind of tooling to crimp the bottom of the pumps that AC used originally; I wouldn't risk the fuel leakage on my car.
I was under the impression Goathill uses new parts with onlt the used aluminum body recycled.
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My first one leaked that I got from him, but he took care of it. I had it on until I rebuilt the engine and it worked fine. When it gets to the point where I put it back on, I won't be driving it that much.
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The original crimped-bottom pumps were never designed to be rebuilt; I wouldn't put a rebuilt crimped pump on my car, for safety reasons.
I totally agree with John on this. Kind of like splicing in an aftermarket fuel filter into the hardline between the fuel pump and the carb with rubber line and clamps. Not the best approach. You don't want a fuel leak, regardless of how small.
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My name is Fred Ballard and I DO restore these crimp together type of fuel pumps. I am NOT in any way now or ever have been related to Goat Hill Classics. I am currently working on my seventeenth restoration run and I am actively gathering pumps for my eighteenth run which will begin very soon. I have done over 800 of these so far. I generally only do 2 or 3 runs per year based on customer needs. I need a minimum number of pumps to do a run and I am near that now.
The restoration is $220 plus $20 return shipping in the lower 48 states. This service needs to be prepaid and a personal or company check is the preferred method of payment. The pumps are disassembled, cleaned, replated and rebuilt with diaphragms and valves compatible with current ethanol laced fuels. If you are planning to send yours in, please email me and enclose contact and shipping information with the pump. The service takes about one month from the time that I begin the disassembly process.
I seem to be the only one in the world currently doing these pumps. If you Google "crimped fuel pump rebuild" my name is the only one that comes up. My specialty has been Ford pumps but I have done a fair number of GM and Chrysler pumps as well.
Here is a link to a Ford one that I did that was on Ebay recently. This will give you some idea of the quality of my work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111335656619?ssPageName=STRK:MEUNSOLD:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649
Fred Ballard
28916 Flowerpark Drive
Canyon Country, Ca. 91387-1801
661-251-2362
fredsclassics@hotmail.com
-Fred-
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Thanks for the information Fred. While the CRG doesn't normally allow for sale and wanted ads, since your post is a "service" and something a lot of folks are looking for, we'll keep this one around. However, I've removed your other two posts since they're duplicates.
Ed
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My original pump is in a box on a shelf in my Camaro's garage. That is where it is going to stay. Leaking fuel leaking fuel is something I don't even want to think about on my car.
Jim
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A leaking fuel pump; I mean. JIM :-)
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So, did anyone ever contact Fred about having a Camaro fuel pump rebuilt?
My old AC logo fuel pump weeps very slightly from the crimp upon start-up, but only after it sits for a while. I bought a replacement style AC pump (no logo) to have on hand in case it needs replacement. I also bought an older NOS AC logo pump, but don't want to put it on the car if it isn't compatible with current 10% ethanol gas around here.
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I just completed my twentieth run of these crimped type fuel pumps and I am actively gathering pumps for my twenty first run. I have done over 850 of them so far.
-Fred-
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What's a typical turn around time for a GM pump?
Mike
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The turnaround time varies as I need a minimum quantity of pumps to begin a run. The pumps are disassembled and cleaned. The more time consuming part is the plating. Then they are reassembled with diaphragms and valves compatible with the current ethanol laced fuels. This process generally takes about one month. I generally only do 2 or 3 runs in a year based on customer demand although I have done as many as 5 runs in a year.
Please email me for further information.
-Fred-
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Fred,
Do you offer a guarantee and/or warranty on the rebuilt fuel pumps?
Paul
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Fred,
Do you offer a guarantee and/or warranty on the rebuilt fuel pumps?
Paul
I can cover them for one year although I have pumps out there for over five years with no issues.
-Fred-
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This is an update to my previous post of over 4 years ago as some things have changed. I could not figure out how to modify the original post:
My name is Fred Ballard and I DO restore these crimp together type of fuel pumps. I am NOT in any way now or ever have been related to Goat Hill Classics. I am recently completed my thirty first restoration run and I am actively gathering pumps for my thirty second run which will begin very soon. I have done over 1,200 of these so far. I generally only do 2 or 3 runs per year based on customer needs. I need a minimum number of pumps to do a run and I am near that now.
The restoration is $240 plus $20 return shipping in the lower 48 states. This service needs to be prepaid and a personal or company check is the preferred method of payment. The pumps are disassembled, cleaned, replated and rebuilt with diaphragms and valves compatible with current ethanol laced fuels. If you are planning to send yours in, please email me and enclose contact and shipping information with the pump. The service takes about one month from the time that I begin the disassembly process.
I seem to be the only one in the world currently doing these pumps. If you Google "crimped fuel pump rebuild" my name is the only one that comes up. My specialty has been Ford pumps but I have done a fair number of GM and Chrysler pumps as well.
Here is a link to a Ford one that I did that was on Ebay recently. This will give you some idea of the quality of my work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111335656619?ssPageName=STRK:MEUNSOLD:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649
Fred Ballard
28916 Flowerpark Drive
Canyon Country, Ca. 91387-1801
661-251-2362
fredsclassics@hotmail.com
-Fred-
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Before Picture, Pump is at Fred's for rebuilding.
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Fuel Pump Back from Fred's after rebuilding; Ethanol friendly.
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thanks Jim for the update!
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Thank you for posting your before and after pictures of your pump, Jim. The difference is quite dramatic even from where I sit. There is another option for those with "survivor" class cars. I can rebuild the pump and leave all of the original patina and even the dirt and grease if that is your desire. It is very hard to tell that anything has been done to the pump when completed. I have had very good luck doing them this way. It is more of an issue for me as I need to make absolutely sure that I do not mix that one with the ones that get cleaned and replated. A lot of the Corvette guys go with this option. This way you will still have a pump that is compatible with our current Ethanol laced fuels and still appear to be unrestored.
-Fred-
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I can personally vouch for Fred. I have known him for 25+ years when he worked at the dealership I bought parts from.
--Scott.
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Looks like Fred does great work.
Another option may be a company I've used many times for hard-to-get pumps for old boats.
Then and Now Automotive in Massachusettes. Come back bench tested and ready to go. Nice guys, too.
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Looks like Fred does great work.
Another option may be a company I've used many times for hard-to-get pumps for old boats.
Then and Now Automotive in Massachusettes. Come back bench tested and ready to go. Nice guys, too.
The only problem with Then and Now Automotive is that they do NOT do the crimp type of pumps. They only do the screw together type and Camaros only have the crimp type.
-Fred-
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I have talked with Fred over the phone 3 or 4 years ago. Nice guy! Since there is hundreds out there functioning properly, my next biggest concern would be fuel pump pressure. Which everyone seems to always forget. I had one pump at 9 pounds at an idle and another at 14 from HBC! This is a nightmare with fuel blowing by the needle and seat and flooding the motor with unburned fuel. I searched for HOURS to find the problem. Then my friend finally said stop EVERYTHING, and check fuel pressure. So BOTH of my cars have regulators hidden in the front frame and set at APPR. 5.0 to 5.5-6.0 PSI. SO... with that said, what is the testing pressure after your rebuild process?... Danny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqAz0koDSpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdEhsJqryNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwxHpvT9vP0
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Here is another example of Fred's fuel pump restoration work. This 40669, January 1969 date coded AC pump is original to my 2B Norwood RS/Z so I thought it was well worth restoring. It hasn't been run on the engine as yet so I can't comment on performance. I assume the body of the pump is magnesium (or aluminium or an alloy?) however it has the appearance of being coated as the surface is quite different from the NOS fuel pump of a similar vintage I own. Its also not clear to me if the metal porosity was there when the pump was new or if it suffers from long term oxidation. As you can see from the photos of the pump prior to restoration it was rough. Once again I have not seen this much pocking with any NOS fuel pumps. There is some waviness in the crimped edge between the main body and cad plated lower section however its not noticeable unless you're looking for it.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7898/46784387881_c0e2fdbd81_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehbdzg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehbdzg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4908/46059291684_7b188f50af_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2db6UJG) (https://flic.kr/p/2db6UJG) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4865/46784387581_45b360e370_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehbdu6) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehbdu6) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7860/46059291514_4d5fff72c2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2db6UFL) (https://flic.kr/p/2db6UFL) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
Pre-restoration
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7823/46059387924_2f72495412_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2db7pm1) (https://flic.kr/p/2db7pm1) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4864/46059388044_63532d98a9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2db7po5) (https://flic.kr/p/2db7po5) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Lloyd,
The reason that your pump appears to have a coating on it is that I use a semi gloss clear on the casting to preclude oily fingerprints from leaving stains on the casting. Dirt and fingerprints tend to stay on the castings when they get there. I have one customer who just sent me another of his pumps has asked me to not clear coat the casting which I am happy to do upon request. Your pock marks in the casting are where moisture sat as that is a natural moat for collecting moisture after the engine cools down in some climates. Your pump is pock mark free compared to some of the ones that people send me. I have had them so bad that the stamped numbers are almost illegible. The sides on some of these pumps get extremely pitted as well. We are fortunate on AC pumps that the crimped area is as small as it is because these things are generally over 50 years old and the metal does not like to be stretched for removal and then crimped back together. Any metal man will tell you that you need to use heat and cold to shrink the metal back to where it was. I tried this on these fuel pumps but I kept melting the castings :)
All that said, I also offer a survivor rebuild where only the internals are cleaned and replaced with diaphragms and valves compatible with current ethanol laced fuels. The outside can be just hand washed or even left with the original grease and grime. I have been getting a fair number of requests for this option lately.
-Fred-
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Thanks for clarifying Fred. Have you found way to eliminate (fill) the pocking while maintaining a natural, consistent appearance? Maybe too much to ask however it would be ideal for a factory fresh look.
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Of all the pumps that I restore, the AC pumps seem to be the most prone to corrosion. Carter, which Ford and Chrysler use, seem to hold up much better externally. The Carter pumps however seem to have a propensity to corrode from the inside out. I can disassemble what appears to be a perfectly good Carter core and discover it to be unusable due to excessive corrosion. Luckily this is not all that common. The AC pumps seem to not have the internal corrosion problems of the Carter pumps and both appear to be of different casting materials. I do not see any way to use fillers to repair pitting and still keep a new appearance being as any filler is going to be of a different density.
-Fred-
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Noted, thanks Fred.
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STILL looking and hoping for someone to test the fuel pressure of a rebuilt pump. Pressure, IMO, should be checked during operation for accuracy. As you can see in my earlier post, it can vary quite a bit. Hopefully someone is able to do this as it is VERY important for proper operation during fuel delivery. Danny
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While on this topic, just how long can one expect an NOS AC fuel pump to last with today's ethanol fuel? Is there anything that can be done short of a rebuild to prolong the life (fuel additives, draining the fuel from the pump, etc)?
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Snake oil?
https://www.amazon.com/Bell-Performance-Ethanol-Defense-bottle/dp/B008EFHNKS
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bump
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Run Zero ethanol fuel... 100LL is less than $5 a gallon and is well worth it, available at any municipal airport. FWIW Last I checked I could get 55 gal drums for $175 plus frt.
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Run Zero ethanol fuel... 100LL is less than $5 a gallon and is well worth it, available at any municipal airport. FWIW Last I checked I could get 55 gal drums for $175 plus frt.
If you have an older collector car (our Camaros are a great example) and it is (mostly) original and it isn't driven daily, then you should NEVER put ethanol fuel in it (or your small engine lawn equipment, etc)... ONE more thing the federal gov't has SCREWED up for it's citizens!
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ONE more thing the federal gov't has SCREWED up for it's citizens!
NO! That's the result of the corn lobby. Who ever thought that using food for fuel was a good idea?? Oh, that lobby.....
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It is also one of the main reasons it takes forever to start an engine that has set up for awhile. The stuff evaporates pretty quick leaving you a dry carb. Large or small.
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As far as longevity, My nos fuel filter has lasted for 20+ years and still operates perfectly and, for quite a few years I used ethanol fuel not knowing the consequenses>
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Ethanol only needs one thing to make it better - avoiding.
Ethanol has an affinity for water, which then has a tendency to corrode the daylights out of anything steel it comes in contact with, like gas tanks and fuel lines. It has an appetite for neoprene, rubber and vinyl as in gas lines and neoprene tipped needles in the carb. Viton tips fair better, but I wouldn't use ethanol/gas for anything except late model injected engines designed to use it. I still fill up my later cars with non-ethanol occasionally to clean the injectors (performance and mileage increase is noticeable).
Ever wonder why the vinyl gas lines on a weedeater last about a year when using ethanol ? Ever looked inside one of the carbs on an ethanol powered small engine after a year or two ? Usually not good. Metal bins at our local collection center are always pretty full of weed eaters and lawnmowers that look new and don't start, when a new fuel filter, gas lines and spark plug will most times resurrect them.
The ethanol as an additive was originally intended to reduce the cost of gasoline, due to the amount of grain grown and wasted in the U.S. annually. More often than not, Brazil was used as an example of how cheap ethanol was as a fuel (while burning down the rainforests to plant more grain). We'd be better off using shale resources to help our newfound internal oil independence, and ship the corn to Lynchburg, TN for more useful recreational uses. Leave some for the livestock, too -
Just my opinion(s) - lol.
Regards,
Steve
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I got wrapped up in my digressing from the topic - I forgot to add to the casting material and oxidation questions. Up until several years back, one of my customers was Carter in TN, a fuel pump plant. Pressure die cast aluminum, really pure stuff, made mechanical fuel pumps and even AC pumps under license (I used to have a box full of castings from tooling new production lines, AC logos and all). They were very particular about casting density and porosity, inspection dept. rejected castings like you wouldn't believe. I think a lot of the pitting you see is electrolytic corrosion near the steel portions of the pump, plus road grime. I think Fred does a great job with what he has to work with on 50 year old castings -
Regards,
Steve
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ONE more thing the federal gov't has SCREWED up for it's citizens!
NO! That's the result of the corn lobby. Who ever thought that using food for fuel was a good idea?? Oh, that lobby.....
The BIG problem is our government; Yes, the corn lobby PAYS off the politicians (and we allow the politicians to take it and promise the special interests ANYTHING .. to keep their money flowing!). They ALL (politicians and lobbyists) should go to jail without passing GO... But we (the citizens) allow it to happen by failing to ask such questions of our politiicans and by whom we vote for. HOW does one think someone goes into office with maybe a $value of a few hundred thousand $$, and after a term or two or 10, they are worth MILLIONS.??? Their salary isn't much higher than yours or mine, and they LIVE in an expensive location... WHY do we allow our freedoms and $$ to be stolen??