CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: Pex68 on March 28, 2008, 06:01:08 PM

Title: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on March 28, 2008, 06:01:08 PM
Is there a date code on the 5460346 master cylinder?  All I can find is the D4 stamp.  If so where is it located?
I've seen the CRG report - Chassis - Suspension, Axle, Brakes, & Wheels but it didn't mention anything about date codes.
Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: rich69rs on March 28, 2008, 08:58:04 PM
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3428.0

See the above link.  One of the posted pics shows the location of the Julian date code on a 5460465 (power drum) master cylinder.  The number in the picture is seen via an inspection mirror.

"On the LH (driver) side on the bottom are two additional numbers.  On the bottom to the front is the Julian date code - "170" (June 19).  On the bottom to the rear is the foundry pattern number "D14"."  
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on March 28, 2008, 09:11:47 PM
I saw that post when I searched master cylinder and just double checked again-no other stampings I can find.  This is a 5460346 WT master for disc brakes.  The D4 stamp is where the date would be on a 309.  Am I missing something or do these not have date codes????
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bertfam on March 28, 2008, 10:15:27 PM
No date code on my 346. Just "D1" and some kind of star thingy inside a circle!


Ed
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on March 29, 2008, 09:30:31 PM
Great thanks Ed!  Thought I was missing something or had one of those Chinese knock offs!!!!  Car is going to concourse this year and the pre-qual form asks for a date code.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on September 23, 2009, 04:58:53 PM
Ok, some more questions!
Was told the WT on my 346 was a re-stamp!?!?!  Anyone have any pic's of a original WT stamp so I can compare?  I can post a pic mine too for scrutiny if needed but just wanted to compare for myself.  Also, read Corvette 346's had a date code stamped in the front machined surface where the brake line would attach-is this true for Camaros also?  Nothing mentioned about it in the Brake report and they didn't say anything during judging but thought I'd ask again incase we were all just missing it. :-[  Last thing, what was the broadcast code for 68 power disc and where was it located & how was it affixed to the assembly?
Thanks Guys.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bertfam on September 23, 2009, 06:00:06 PM
Although not the greatest example (a little pitted), here's a picture of mine. Let's see yours.

I've also read that the Corvette units had the date code stamped in a Julian format, but I can't verify that through first hand experience.

The Broadcast Code for the 68 Camaro with Power Disk brakes is CH and it's on a tag attached to one of the Bail Wires.

Ed

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/bertfam/WT-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on September 23, 2009, 06:44:52 PM
Thanks Ed.  Although yours is not the greatest example, the font & size seems to be like mine.  Here's mine.  I did poilsh the pad a little but tried not so much as to remove the broach marks.  What's your take on it? 

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/pex68/WTStamp.jpg)

As far as the Broadcast code, in reading this in the report:
The application code for the master cylinder was stamped on a small pad on the front of the casting, as shown in the sketch below. Note the tag with the broadcast code also shown in the sketch. The broadcast code and the master cylinder application code are not the same; the broadcast code is for the entire assembly and the application code is for the bare master cylinder.
I assumed the entire assembly would have had a different code attached to a bail wire?

So Camaros didn't get a date?  I know John can answer about the Vettes...


Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bertfam on September 23, 2009, 06:56:00 PM
Yeah, you're right. I read your question wrong. The Broadcast Code for 68 Power Disk brakes is "CH".

Yours looks similar, but notice how close together my letters are compared to yours. Also note that the top of my T isn't as wide as yours and the outer "legs" of my W go higher than the middle part. Yours is equal all around. I'm no good at spotting restamps, so I'll let Kurt chime in!

Ed
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on September 23, 2009, 07:14:05 PM
WOW, didn't notice that until you pointed it out...not to surprised if it though as it was bought through a certain vendor many years ago.  Pretty sure I tossed my original years ago too....before I knew better.  Ahh well...live & learn!!  At least I know what to look for now...
Thanks again Ed.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: KurtS on September 25, 2009, 03:10:45 AM
I'd say it's a restamp. But if you couldn't tell, then it's probably good enough to use.... :)
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Pex68 on September 25, 2009, 06:02:03 PM
Thanks Kurt.  It's one of those things I just really paid no attention to, especially since it was bought under the assumption it an original WT master...and being so I never really looked for others or had anything to compare it to.  And funny thing is it went through first year of concours without a word!  I'm having problems with it now anyway so I'll just keep my eyes peeled for a REAL original one.
As always, THANKS Guys!
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on January 20, 2015, 01:37:05 PM
Would anyone else care to post a good pic of known orig. WT stamping for reference.
I'm looking for one and want to have a couple good reference pics. In fact all angle shots of the master at numerous angles would be great.
The repos and restamps out there are making it really tough.
You can Pm or email me if you don't want to post them here.
Thanks
Brad
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: cook_dw on January 20, 2015, 02:44:25 PM
12D of 1967 (68 model)  LOS

(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02562_zpsa65fbdf2.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02562_zpsa65fbdf2.jpg.html)

(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02563_zps1ae0333d.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Matador%20Red%20302%20Camaro/DSC02563_zps1ae0333d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on January 20, 2015, 03:07:16 PM
Thanks Darrell.
Wouldn't happen to have a extra laying around would ya?
Lol.  ;)
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: cook_dw on January 20, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
Nope sorry.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: JohnZ on January 20, 2015, 04:08:00 PM
The "D 1" is the pattern number at the Defiance (Ohio) GM foundry - that foundry logo is to the left of the "D".
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on January 20, 2015, 04:40:10 PM
John was there any connection to D 1,2,3,4 in time frames from Ohio? Just curious about the number. Most want to tie it to date codes in some way.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: JohnZ on January 23, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
John was there any connection to D 1,2,3,4 in time frames from Ohio? Just curious about the number. Most want to tie it to date codes in some way.

Nope. It's not a date code - it's foundry pattern number identification.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 18, 2015, 03:00:56 AM
Does this look correct?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 18, 2015, 08:32:15 PM
Opinions on this stamp. Original?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 18, 2015, 10:26:59 PM
Hi Brad,
    Normally the pad where the code is stamped has a more flatter machined look from some of the ones I have seen in the field. But that is not to say your example hasn't had some surface oxidation to cause the rough texture. I have two WT's on my '67's I can look at but from memory the fonts on yours look legit.

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 18, 2015, 10:33:30 PM
Thanks mike if you can post or pm me pic it would be great.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: HawkX66 on February 19, 2015, 12:48:14 PM
Hi Brad,
    Normally the pad where the code is stamped has a more flatter machined look from some of the ones I have seen in the field. But that is not to say your example hasn't had some surface oxidation to cause the rough texture. I have two WT's on my '67's I can look at but from memory the fonts on yours look legit.

Mike
I've seen a lot with the machined look also, but my original 309 US looks exactly like his surface. My stamping is barely legible though.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Stingr69 on February 19, 2015, 04:39:43 PM
Pad looks aged as if it was rusted.  No expert here, but that stamp looks to be a little too fresh and crisp on an otherwise OLD looking surface . JMO
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 19, 2015, 11:20:49 PM
 Here are the two 'WT' master cylinders on my cars. Both are original to the car with the LOS unit being unrestored.
I looked all over and cannot find any Julian date besides the part number and foundry cast info.
The 05B NOR stamp has a light 'W' stamped compared to the LOS unit.

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 19, 2015, 11:28:36 PM
Mike I have seen both more than once. What's date on Los car.
I know of a early Los that has stamp like your nor .
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 19, 2015, 11:43:02 PM
Hi Brad,

  The 04B LOS UOIT lists a date of April 13, 1967
For the 05B NOR car the NCRS document lists the date of May 12, 1967

Here is a close up of the NOR WT. The machining is not flat so the W isn't as crisp.


Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 19, 2015, 11:52:39 PM
I was looking at stamps and looked over the one date code. Both cars are so close. But we all know there was a lot higher production numbers were higher in nor.
Well I'm still in the market for one for my 7. This all helps me with the hunt for orig.
There are a lot of faked ones out there.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 20, 2015, 12:00:23 AM
The NOR WT characters looks like the one you posted. Where is that from?

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 20, 2015, 12:27:43 AM
Not sure. But this one is a early LOS.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 20, 2015, 12:42:09 AM
 Sure looks exactly like the 05B NOR 'WT'. The LOS has what looks like a skinner W. It makes me wonder if these were machined and stamped at more than one facility to account for the changes in fonts.  The few re-stamps I have seen have the wrong letter T (the top is not narrow)
 Is the part number casting upside down?


Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 20, 2015, 12:53:30 AM
Yes I agree the suspected forged ones seem to have a wider font as you stated. Both letters. But seems same on height.
One out of bunch has raised a question in my mind on whether the pad was always milled before stamped. Is the basic pad shape cast or is it milled flat as most seem to suggest. One of the stamps looks as if it was stamped on a un-milled surface. Not pitted. ?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 20, 2015, 03:13:23 AM
 My thinking is it was milled flat but depending on the wear of the stone (I assume it is a stone of some sort) the pattern will vary as well as to the cut area.
The LOS machined area looks more to one side compared to the NOR cylinder.
And being the master cylinder came with a paint that wore off fast, that would leave the surface exposed to moisture over the decades to pit. Cylinders in engine compartments that developed a lot of grime (worn valve covers, power steering grime and air grime) probably fared better.

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 20, 2015, 01:06:01 PM
 ;)Well in my quest for a true WT, I have gained a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Still sure in my mind that there is a lot to learn and that I must proceed in this search with caution. The seemingly rare but reclusive WT is out there. But it is one you just have to stay in waiting and it will show itself. Once it does having to now use gained knowledge to decide whether it is a imposter or the true WT.  Then it seems that when one does surface, it has somehow in the past 49 years turned to gold. So.......the obsession, fascination, and compulsion to acquire a true WT goes on!  Lol!!!
 
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 20, 2015, 03:35:35 PM
 The picture you posted, what was wrong with that 'WT'? It sounds like you have one already that has a good stamp.

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 20, 2015, 03:49:01 PM
None of these are mine mike. I have gathered these for comparison. The one I first ask about I'm looking at
But it's one of those that seems to be gold to the seller.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: jdv69z on February 20, 2015, 08:07:42 PM
I'm assuming the master cylinders were supplied for Norwood or LA from the same source?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 20, 2015, 08:25:27 PM
Gm used the delco moraine master on all to my l knowledge. I haven't researched that side of it yet.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: JohnZ on February 21, 2015, 04:45:52 PM
I'm assuming the master cylinders were supplied for Norwood or LA from the same source?

Yup - Delco-Moraine Div., Dayton, Ohio was the source for all GM iron master cylinders in those days (except for a few supplied by Bendix).
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 21, 2015, 05:16:59 PM
Then John if one location for all, what's your thoughts on the stamping process. Different fonts or way each was stamped. And was the pad on all masters machined or have you seen any stamped on pad that had not been machined?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: JohnZ on February 23, 2015, 06:01:14 PM
Then John if one location for all, what's your thoughts on the stamping process. Different fonts or way each was stamped. And was the pad on all masters machined or have you seen any stamped on pad that had not been machined?

The 346 master cylinder was also used on some C3 Corvettes, and I've never seen one that didn't have the front pad machined for the ID stamp. Delco-Moraine probably used the same gang-holder stamping process as was used on engines and transmissions, which would lead possibly to different fonts on different days.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 25, 2015, 01:09:14 PM
What is the correct cap for the 67 WT?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Petes L48 on February 25, 2015, 03:04:34 PM
What is the correct cap for the 67 WT?

Here's a thread you can read through from last year.  Apparently 67 to some point in 69 were all the same, then a second version appeared.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12201.0
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 25, 2015, 04:25:46 PM
Yeas thanks. I had seen that post. But most referring to 69.
And answer to my question not definite on 67.
Did they just use one cap on most all masters in each run or year?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 26, 2015, 02:52:39 AM
Two different caps that are possible 67.
Opinions please.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: Mike S on February 26, 2015, 01:13:22 PM
The middle and bottom picture look 67.

Mike
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 26, 2015, 01:20:04 PM
Agree with you on that Mike. But top is in question. This had turned up a couple times and also seems to be a 67. Anybody agree or see the top one on 67?
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: JohnZ on February 27, 2015, 05:46:18 PM
Top one is aftermarket or Service replacement.
Title: Re: 5460346 Master Cylinder
Post by: bc69 on February 27, 2015, 06:30:21 PM
Thanks  John that  is the answer  I'm looking for . So there was one cap used on power disc cars in 67. And this is it.
A reproduction of original anyway. Agreed?