CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: nuch_ss396 on July 21, 2007, 10:58:01 PM
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Can anyone tell me the approximate, or actual date the N/66 "Sport Wheel" option was cancelled? According to Jerry MacNeish, it was only available from Sept '68 to
Jan '69. I've seen a number of SS Camaros with post 1/69 builds and the owners claim the N/66 wheels were original to the build. Jerry, if you're here - chime in please.
Even though the N/66 option was cancelled, could someone still get the N/66 wheels put on their car ( by the dealer ) prior to deliverey? Are there any "documented"
cases of known N/66 equipped Camaros with post 1/69 builds?
Steve
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It was not on the 12/68 order sheet and no later cars have been documented.
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So Kurt,
Should I then infer that any post 1/69 Camaro's with N/66 were basically owner installed?
I've gotten into some interesting exchanges with SS Camaro owners over this subject in the past.
Clarification please: "no later cars have been documented" - Does this take into account dealer installed N/66 wheels, or just RPO's? Do dealer installed N/66 wheels
count anyway?
Steve
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Steve,
I'll have to check but I think the latest car that I documented with these was a Dec built car. If you're restoring a car and it was built after Jan, I would not use these wheels unless you don't care about technical correctness.
Jerry
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Jerry,
Do you happen to know exactly when in Dec. that car ( the one you're referring to ) was built?
I am considering the restoration, and about correctness, you know my response to that. ;D
BTW, as a Judge, where do you stand on "documented" dealer installed options ( eg. N/66, D/80, hood pins, etc. )?
Let's say someone purchased a '69 SS off the lot and wanted to add spoilers or the N/66 Sport Wheels. If the owner
has paperwork that shows that the dealer installed these options prior to delivery ( to the customer ), would you
accept them as "documented"? Just wondering....
Steve
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Documented via factory documents.
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I don't know what the Camaro judging standard is, but the published NCRS Corvette judging standard specifically excludes any dealer-installed (or removed) items:
"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to the purchaser, exclusive of any dealer- or purchaser-inspired additions, deletions, or changes."
For instance, if a Corvette has a dealer-installed luggage rack, there is no deduction for the presence of the rack, but there IS a deduction for the alteration to the body to install it (the holes drilled in the body panel).
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John,
I can understand that. So, how do all the Supercars fare in judging? They are all dealer modified ;D
Do they judge Yenko's, Dana's, B-M's, Harrel's, etc. in a different way?
Steve
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John's answer about Corvette judging is the same as Camaro. The cars have to be restored to the way they left the plant. No add ons, if you add them, there are points taken off. Many like to install that engine mount recall kit. If we see one on a car, there is a point deduction. If you add spoilers and they were not factory installed, there will be a point deduction.
If you have the window sticker to the vehicle or dealer invoice, the car must match in every option.
Jerry
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Jerry, do you deduct points for a non-original (but correct) engine, trans, rear axle, or other component if the guy has documentation it was replaced under warranty by the dealer?...............RatPack................
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Jerry, do you deduct points for a non-original (but correct) engine, trans, rear axle, or other component if the guy has documentation it was replaced under warranty by the dealer?...............RatPack................
In Corvette judging, the components must be those that were in the car when it left the plant; warranty replacements, "CE" blocks, etc. get deductions. As an extreme, Corvettes that were ordered with Special Paint in prime (which shows on the trim tag) must be presented for judging in prime or they get a total deduction for paint.
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If you have the paperwork from the dealer stating the engine change, that is the only time that you will be allowed credit on a CE engine. In any other cases, you are always better off with a dated correct engine or restoration engine.
Jerry
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John's answer about Corvette judging is the same as Camaro. The cars have to be restored to the way they left the plant. No add ons, if you add them, there are points taken off. Many like to install that engine mount recall kit. If we see one on a car, there is a point deduction. If you add spoilers and they were not factory installed, there will be a point deduction.
If you have the window sticker to the vehicle or dealer invoice, the car must match in every option.
Jerry
Just so I understand. how do judges deal with cars that do not have documentation? For example, does a car have to have a D-80 on the trim tag to have spoilers even though not every car equipped with a spoiler had the D-80 on the trim tag (like LA cars)? I'm a realist, many more cars now exist with spoilers and cowl hoods than ever left the factory (very popular add on through the ages) but, just as grounded in reality, that doesn't mean that every car that has a spoiler and lacks documentation didn't leave the factory that way...so how do judges cope with such items when judging?
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I would hope that owners of cars that were modified at the dealer when new and had paperwork to back it up would not be penalized points for leaving those items on. If they get docked points and start removing the dealer installed items for the sake of judging we are losing a cool part of the cars history. There ought to be a way to encourage owners to preserve how they left the lot.
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John's answer about Corvette judging is the same as Camaro. The cars have to be restored to the way they left the plant. No add ons, if you add them, there are points taken off. Many like to install that engine mount recall kit. If we see one on a car, there is a point deduction. If you add spoilers and they were not factory installed, there will be a point deduction.
If you have the window sticker to the vehicle or dealer invoice, the car must match in every option.
Jerry
Just so I understand. how do judges deal with cars that do not have documentation? For example, does a car have to have a D-80 on the trim tag to have spoilers even though not every car equipped with a spoiler had the D-80 on the trim tag (like LA cars)? I'm a realist, many more cars now exist with spoilers and cowl hoods than ever left the factory (very popular add on through the ages) but, just as grounded in reality, that doesn't mean that every car that has a spoiler and lacks documentation didn't leave the factory that way...so how do judges cope with such items when judging?
In the case above with the N66 wheels, the car would have to be built in the time period the option was available first. Also the installation of the option would have to be identical to factory. In the case of cowl induction hood the relay, hole above fuse box and accelerator linkage would be check proper location and originality of components.
Regarding the dealer installed items. That opens up a can of worms itself, for instance was this item an RPO or over the counter. My take is that over the counter items were NOT a factory item ( RPO) and shouldn't be considered in a" Original Judged Class/Factory Born Class". If the option that was added was an available option during that cars build period, and they have real verifiable documentation that the deal installed it fron new,then I feel some consideration should be given.
If I owned a car with over the counter items and accessories, I would have it judged without first and then add the option or accessory as I see fit. This is only my opinion, and also feel the more exceptions made, the more diluted judging becomes.
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In the case above with the N66 wheels, the car would have to be built in the time period the option was available first. Also the installation of the option would have to be identical to factory. In the case of cowl induction hood the relay, hole above fuse box and accelerator linkage would be check proper location and originality of components.
That sort of thing is a no brainer...if the car's build date predates or antidates the availability if the option then the judge's decision is clear. That was not the thrust of my question. Options that were readily available over a longer period of time (i.e. spoilers, gauges, bumperettes,etc) were more of my concern. Are the judges comfortable saying that, for example, an 11A '69 LA built Z/28 that currently has spoilers and gauges but has no documentation did not leave the factory that way and mark it down accordingly? Which amounts to calling the owner a liar without much evidence...I have a '69 SS350 (my wife's, LA built, no paper work) that currently has a full gauge package..which I added (because she wanted it that way) and spoilers (also added for the same reason). I would divulge that I added those items but others might not....but if I didn't say, how are the judges to know?
Regarding the dealer installed items. That opens up a can of worms itself, for instance was this item an RPO or over the counter. My take is that over the counter items were NOT a factory item ( RPO) and shouldn't be considered in a" Original Judged Class/Factory Born Class". If the option that was added was an available option during that cars build period, and they have real verifiable documentation that the deal installed it fron new,then I feel some consideration should be given.
If I owned a car with over the counter items and accessories, I would have it judged without first and then add the option or accessory as I see fit. This is only my opinion, and also feel the more exceptions made, the more diluted judging becomes.
I have struggled with this very problem. I have a '69 307 coupe (TH350, AC, PDB, PS) which I purchased from the original owner. 63K miles and a pristine interior (needs a repaint outside). The original owner passed on the brown '69 RS his wife wanted when buying this car so had the dealer install a vinyl roof and add body side moulding to make it up to her. Now in my book the body side moulding should go. But the vinyl roof is another question. It's applied like a '68 roof not a '69 so immediately looks odd, but vinyl roofs were factory options and this one has been there since "new" just not since it left the factory. Conceptually I struggle with this every time I look at the car.
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In the case above with the N66 wheels, the car would have to be built in the time period the option was available first. Also the installation of the option would have to be identical to factory. In the case of cowl induction hood the relay, hole above fuse box and accelerator linkage would be check proper location and originality of components.
That sort of thing is a no brainer...if the car's build date predates or antidates the availability if the option then the judge's decision is clear. That was not the thrust of my question. Options that were readily available over a longer period of time (i.e. spoilers, gauges, bumperettes,etc) were more of my concern. Are the judges comfortable saying that, for example, an 11A '69 LA built Z/28 that currently has spoilers and gauges but has no documentation did not leave the factory that way and mark it down accordingly? Which amounts to calling the owner a liar without much evidence...I have a '69 SS350 (my wife's, LA built, no paper work) that currently has a full gauge package..which I added (because she wanted it that way) and spoilers (also added for the same reason). I would divulge that I added those items but others might not....but if I didn't say, how are the judges to know?
I would not worry about adding the options if they were available and you installed them as the factory.
Now if your cars exterior or interior doesn't match your trim tag you would most likely receive a deduction. The only POSSIBLE exception would be if you indeed had dealer documentation, then you could at least plead your case with documentation ( not real keen on hypotheticals).
Unless you are going to have this car judged at the concours level, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Like I stated previously have it judge without the vinyl roof first and then install it as you please.
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I had a 8000 mile 69 Yenko that got a 68 vinyl top when new. It was ordered with the top but came without it so Yenko ordered a new vinyl top and installed it but it was a 68 and not a 69. I actually like the looks of it. You could never remove that top but it sounds like it might get docked points.
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I would not worry about adding the options if they were available and you installed them as the factory.
Now if your cars exterior or interior doesn't match your trim tag you would most likely receive a deduction. The only POSSIBLE exception would be if you indeed had dealer documentation, then you could at least plead your case with documentation ( not real keen on hypotheticals).
Unless you are going to have this car judged at the concours level, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Like I stated previously have it judge without the vinyl roof first and then install it as you please.
I'm not worried about my wife's car, we built to make us happy...it has a matching drive train and all the right pieces but we cahnged the interior color and added the spoilers and the gauges (way back in '97)..it's real clean and real pretty but not a concourse job for sure...I mention it to illustrate the point. It is a legit SS and has bolt ons that are consistant with SS models (the gauges and spoilers)...how - hypothetically - would it be judged? Can only cars with a paper trail be fully judged? will all cars without a paper trail receive deductions? I am simply curious to hear how the judges deal with what I see as a very sticky situation. BTW, the car has N66 wheels on it and is an early January build - of course they will fool no one here as they are 15" rims from wheel vintiques...look real cool though
(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350side.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350interior.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss_Z28.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350front.jpg)
SEE. PRETTY! Just not as delivered (entirely)
;D :D
Unless you are going to have this car judged at the concours level, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Like I stated previously have it judge without the vinyl roof first and then install it as you please.
I'm not really concerned with judging for the 307 Coupe, but rather with preserving the historical integrity of a car that has not been messed with (the SS above was ridden hard and put away wet so I didn't mind adding a few items here and there) and has low mileage. I know that if I keep the dealer installed vinyl roof then every time the car shows up somewhere somebody will feel obliged to point out that it is not a correct roof...so to me the question sort of boils down to whether or not I want to listen to it....but it also had relevance to our discussion.
The judging does interest me to the extent that I'm curious how standrads are established and how potential areas of conflict are anticipated and addressed. I see the process and standards for 1st gens as pretty well defined (I'm just ignorant of some thigns and wish to be educated)...in the 2nd gen arena I'm seeing less evolution on standards, so I'd love to see how 1st gen judges resolve the issues.
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I would not worry about adding the options if they were available and you installed them as the factory.
Now if your cars exterior or interior doesn't match your trim tag you would most likely receive a deduction. The only POSSIBLE exception would be if you indeed had dealer documentation, then you could at least plead your case with documentation ( not real keen on hypotheticals).
Unless you are going to have this car judged at the concours level, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Like I stated previously have it judge without the vinyl roof first and then install it as you please.
I'm not worried about my wife's car, we built to make us happy...it has a matching drive train and all the right pieces but we cahnged the interior color and added the spoilers and the gauges (way back in '97)..it's real clean and real pretty but not a concourse job for sure...I mention it to illustrate the point. It is a legit SS and has bolt ons that are consistant with SS models (the gauges and spoilers)...how - hypothetically - would it be judged? Can only cars with a paper trail be fully judged? will all cars without a paper trail receive deductions? I am simply curious to hear how the judges deal with what I see as a very sticky situation. BTW, the car has N66 wheels on it and is an early January build - of course they will fool no one here as they are 15" rims from wheel vintiques...look real cool though
I can only speak to the survivor class program I'm involved with regarding points and judging. We don't deduct points for not having paperwork, but do provide bonus points for cars that do. In our class the cars themselves are the documentation. Having an owners manual is a requirement however.
(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350side.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350interior.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss_Z28.jpg)(http://members.cox.net/flowjoe/SS350/ss350front.jpg)
SEE. PRETTY! Just not as delivered (entirely)
;D :D
Unless you are going to have this car judged at the concours level, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Like I stated previously have it judge without the vinyl roof first and then install it as you please.
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I'm not really concerned with judging for the 307 Coupe, but rather with preserving the historical integrity of a car that has not been messed with (the SS above was ridden hard and put away wet so I didn't mind adding a few items here and there) and has low mileage. I know that if I keep the dealer installed vinyl roof then every time the car shows up somewhere somebody will feel obliged to point out that it is not a correct roof...so to me the question sort of boils down to whether or not I want to listen to it....but it also had relevance to our discussion.
Regarding people pointing out the vinyl roof; just document the cars history with a story board explaining the cars unique and interesting history. This way you don't need to repeat and explain this issue over and over.