CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: onebad34 on July 21, 2007, 02:50:20 AM
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What is the correct color for the black tailpan on a big block SS 67 camaro. gloss or 60%
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LOL...You will get 10 different answers.......Gloss from me.
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Read http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2308.0;all
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Looked at an all original 6000 mile BB SS396 Camaro this past week in Ohio on one of my road trips. The rear tail panel is pretty glossy. I used to believe that these panels were pretty dull or satin but from I'm seeing lately on original cars is alot more glossy than I remember as a kid.
Jerry
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Glossy, mine is the same as the RS black on the bottom of the doors
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my father has 3 original 1968 SS/ ............ RS/SS ........and a............. Z/28 they have never been repainted because he baught them new. they are all 60% like a satin. NOT GLOSSY at all. I just think people are getting more laxed on originality. Because if you see my fathers original cars he baught new they are totally stock and untouched. The stripes too. Partial sticker and partial 60% satin GM paint
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my father has 3 original 1968 SS/ ............ RS/SS ........and a............. Z/28 they have never been repainted because he baught them new. they are all 60% like a satin. NOT GLOSSY at all. I just think people are getting more laxed on originality. Because if you see my fathers original cars he baught new they are totally stock and untouched. The stripes too. Partial sticker and partial 60% satin GM paint
So if I read your post correctly the Z/28's tailpanel is 60% glossy as well? That would be interseting to see.
Rick H.
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I'm going to leave my Z's tailpan orange. ;)
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As stated recently in another thread, even if originally painted semi gloss, 40 or so years of polishing, and buffing could change the appearance. Makes sense to me, what was once semi gloss, may now appear glossy, even original paint.
Tom
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As stated recently in another thread, even if originally painted semi gloss, 40 or so years of polishing, and buffing could change the appearance. Makes sense to me, what was once semi gloss, may now appear glossy, even original paint.
Exactly! Wax something semi-gloss once and tell me if it looks the same. Even spray detailers will give it more gloss.
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Looked at an all original 6000 mile BB SS396 Camaro this past week in Ohio on one of my road trips. The rear tail panel is pretty glossy. I used to believe that these panels were pretty dull or satin but from I'm seeing lately on original cars is alot more glossy than I remember as a kid.
Jerry
Jerry was the car an automatic or stick? I am trying to find some certain things out about that car. Do you have the guys email address?
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I am getting ready to paint my wife's 67RSSS 396 camaro.
The tail panel was black but what color black?
Simi gloss or some form of matte black?
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All the survivor cars I have seen had full gloss black paint on the rockers and/or rear body panel. I doubt it received the same buff/polish process as the rest of the car and quickly appeared somewhat dull.
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I am getting ready to paint my wife's 67RSSS 396 camaro.
The tail panel was black but what color black?
Simi gloss or some form of matte black?
See the other thread quoted above. I'm in the semi-gloss (or not full gloss) pack. It doesn’t make sense to me that if they were full gloss just like the black cars Chevrolet would make a note to NOT black out the tail pan on black car! Why would they do that if the black-out paint was the same full gloss paint? As to what percentage of gloss it should be, that's a different story, and if the paint was being flattened at the factory, potentially every batch could have been a little different. Also have to take into account when the car was prepped at the dealer, some may have buffed the tailpan, some not. That alone would change how it looked right out the door hence the many different opinions.
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Gloss.....
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I'm 55 and I really don't remember these panels being gloss black when I was a kid. I seem to remember being careful not to wax these panels because wax really messed up the semi gloss.
My 2 cent recollection of ancient history.
Kris
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This debate has been raging for many, MANY years and it won't get settled until original Fisher documentation is found (if ever).
While I have a lot of respect for Jerry, William and Charley, I also believe (my opinion only) that the black was semi gloss based on pictures from the 1968 CAMARO DEALER SALES ALBUM (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.0). This is clearly a semi gloss finish. However, I don't have the 1967 or 1969 Dealer Sales Album, so I can't say what those pictures show, if anything.
The Camaro wasn't the only car in the model line to use black accents. The Chevelle, Nova and Corvette also used black accents and these are known to be semi gloss. Why would Chevrolet make every car EXCEPT the Camaro semi gloss? Not only that, but just about every US automaker had cars with black accents, and these are all known to be semi gloss. Take a look at any Mustang or Chrysler muscle car from the late 60's, early 70's and you'll see what I mean.
Our own WEB site also states the black was SEMI GLOSS (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#BlackoutPaint), but if and when actual paint instructions are found, this won't go away, so paint it whatever amount of gloss you feel comfortable with. Just be aware that if you have your car judged, you'll be wrong no matter what amount of gloss you use!!
Ed
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My 2 cents: In the summer of 1969 a guy on my street bought a brand new 1969 SS 396 right off the lot. Body color was white. Rear tail panel was semi gloss black.
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I saw many of these cars in my youth as well, and if you would ask me, I would swear they were semi gloss or a somewhat flat black also. But now that I'm reading this thread, I have to admit that I'm not really so sure any more. It's been a long time and the memory can play tricks.
Jimmy V.
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Orig paint 69 Yenko I had...gloss black
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Orig paint low mile 68 L78.
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I'll go against the grain with this one too - I saw hundreds of them coming down the line at Norwood iin February and March of 1969, and I never saw one that was gloss black.
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Then someone show me a survivor , orig paint car with semi gloss paint.
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Rear panel blackout, stripes and rocker trim black out on style trim cars was done in the in line repair booth after the car had been painted and firewall had been blacked out in the blackout booth at the end of the paint shop. How many colors of black did they have in the repair booth, a gloss for the stripes and rocker panel blackout (never heard anyone question the gloss level here) and a semigloss for the tail panel?
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Thanks for the replies.
I called DuPont auto refinish and got the following reply.
Use croma one single stage acrylic urethane in code 99G black.
mix 25% 4531 flattner to ready to spray 99G
You should get satin black as original.
I'm 62 years old and remember when the cars were new but I don't remember them being gloss.
But that was along time ago.
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The Dupont guy probably read in a magazine that they were satin...
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Drop the bumper or remove the tail lights. If it still has the factory finish there will be untouched paint. My O5C LA car was glossy since i purchased it in 1980, This year i stripped the car and had it repainted and am now sure it was semi-gloss.
Victor
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There's only one I've seen recently that was OP in the jambs (the jambs and behind the bumper are the areas to really judge IMO because you never really know how much the "exposed" areas have been rubbed/buffed in the 40 or so years), the rest of the car had been repainted. I would have to go back and look at it again closer, especially on the trunk-side weatherstrip lip, but the pics I have are definitely not gloss.
We restored an OP BB car about 10 years ago, way before dig pics (only have a couple film pics of it anymore) and my memory is no help. The one pic I do have shows no reflection.
I've also seen satin OP rocker paint, behind the fender where there was never any sun exposure.
So.... I really don't know. Maybe it was an inconsistent deal?
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What would be the correct sheen for the rockers on RS cars? Gloss or semi-gloss?
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Semi Gloss on both the rockers (Z22 Rally Sport cars), and the tail pan (SS Big Block cars).
Ed
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To add to what I just wrote above, I decided it was time to put this debate to rest, so I contacted Jim Mattison to get the straight poop on this subject. Here's what he had to say (submitted with his permission):
In 1968 through 1971, I was a member of the Fleet & Special Order Department
(the collectors call it COPO) at Chevrolet Central Office, in Detroit. A part of
my daily duties was to approve or disapprove special paint requests, in addition
to handling the other COPO requests. I would innerface with the folks at Dupont
and at the assembly plants.
Your question is an interesting one that I've not been asked in many years.
Every year I would recieve a listing of paint specs for both passenger car and
trucks, to aid in the special paint process. As you know, all big block Camaros
had the upper rear tail panel painted black. A little known fact is that some
of the COPO 427 Camaros had this rear panel painted black also, although in
the restoration process, years later they were repainted body color.
Unfortunately, I no longer have my paint spec books and I sincerely doubt that
there are any other copies around. However, I remember vividly that this rear
panel on the big block Camaros was painted a "Satin Black", not a gloss, nor a
flat black. I hope that this information is helpful
To add to this, we also discussed the lower rocker color on the Rally Sport cars and again, these are a "Satin Black" like the tail panel.
Ed
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Yes! We old dudes rule! I knew it wasn't gloss black. I can not rest easy.
Now I just need to buy a big block SS and correct it's tail panel. ;D
Kris
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Way to go Ed!!!!
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Very interesting... ;D
Mike
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Next case Your Honor.
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I concur, I saw many of these when they were new...SATIN BLACK......for sure! Also, if they had painted them Gloss I would have repainted them Satin myself..gloss is just too nerdy looking. 8)
BM
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Here are pics I have of an OP 69 RS Z's rockers. Car was taken off the road in '79, shoved off in a barn until '05 which is when these pics were taken. I can't say they were all satin, but this one surely was.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/69rockerjamb1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RestoReference/69rockerjamb2.jpg)
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Per the recently bought book: "The Great Camaro" May 1979 printing regarding 68's: "Dull-finish black trunk end panels graced all 1968 Super Sport 396's except those with black paint jobs." Caption with photo on page 45.
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Survivors exist in gloss and satin.
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I guess it all depends on the teminology people use.
Flat = 0 % gloss
Semi gloss = 50% gloss
Gloss = 100 % gloss
Where does the tail panel fall now?
I still lean towards the panels being full gloss, or something real close. The blackout was painted the same time the stripes and rocker blaclout were painted. From a manufacturing perspective no one would have painted the stripes full gloss, and then switched to a something more than semi gloss (say 80% gloss paint) for the tail panel and rockers when 99.9 percent of the peple buying the car would not have known the difference.
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Satin= 30% gloss
Semi= 60% gloss
One wax job would create a more gloss look, imagine several.
Buddy
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[
I still lean towards the panels being full gloss, or something real close. The blackout was painted the same time the stripes and rocker blaclout were painted. From a manufacturing perspective no one would have painted the stripes full gloss, and then switched to a something more than semi gloss (say 80% gloss paint) for the tail panel and rockers when 99.9 percent of the peple buying the car would not have known the difference.
] What about the firewall?
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I think you'll find that the same black paint was used for the firewall, rocker blackout, and 396 tail panel.
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When you talk about levels of flatness, you're really talking about the levels of gloss or reflectivity, which can range from a mirror to a cardboard box. If you had a reflectometer in your toolbox, you could measure your paint's reflectivity and rate it on a scale from zero to 100. Paint industry guys love doing this and have specific terms for the various levels:
Less than 10 Flat
10-30 Matte
30-50 Satin
50-75 Semigloss
75-90 Reduced Sheen
More than 90 Full Gloss
Maybe the paint is the same as the firewall blackout, but the firewall was painted in the blackout booth and thestripes, rocker blackout and tail panel blackout was done in the inline repair booth, requireing both gloss black and whatever this tail panel blackout is to be running in the paint shops manifold system. Just not something that was necessary from a styling point of view and not something you nwould expect to see in a manufacturing process. Its not like the flat black that was used on the tops of hoods of the early 70 mopars like the T/A challengers and AAR cudas which had a purpose, A to keep the reflections down on the hood, B the hoods were fiberglass so it cut down on paint prep time, and C there was a specific style they were looking for.
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I just repainted the tail panel on my car satin black (along with the hood - did the hood to have a look different than everybody else). I am glad I used satin. I did it that way because all of the SS cars that I remember were satin.
One question though. Are there any diagrams as to where the black stopped? I stopped about the center of the bumper (had the bumper off) on the bottom, but was not sure in the trunk area. I went at about a 45 degree angle toward the trunk opening at the corners and stopped in the weather strip channel.
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Here is an original paint from 1975
(http://www.maughon.com/images/camaro/camaro%20rb%20015.jpg)
(http://www.maughon.com/images/camaro/camaro%20rb%20018.jpg)
(http://www.maughon.com/images/camaro/camaro%20rb%20020.jpg)
Buddy
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Buddy,
Thanks for the pictures. Looks like I did it almost right. I stopped at the center of the weather strip channel. I had the weather strip out. Looks like I should have painted it more. I will have to fix that.
What ever happened to that car? Hopefully it is still around.
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Yes but I dont have too much hope for it. 67 RS/SS 396/325 4sp....too bad
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I had a NOS black door stripe decal which matched the paint that was under the trunk weaterstrip. It wasn't gloss & it wasn't flat. More like a semi gloss. It also matched the rockers....Joe
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I think you'll find that the same black paint was used for the firewall, rocker blackout, and 396 tail panel.
Thats what I thought ,I thought this part of the assy. process was done at the same time. I also thought this topic was put to rest two pages ago.
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Yeah...that horse has been beaten to a pulp. Some people just can't accept that they are mistaken. I once thought I was wrong but i was mistaken as well. LOL
jk ;D
Buddy
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So "satin black" it is. Right?
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Affimative. If you want to look at it without %'s. It's flat, eggshell, satin, semi, and gloss.
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The green L78 I posted pics of is one of the most orig untouched Camaro's I have ever seen. It has a gloss tail panel. There is no way it is the same paint used to paint the firewall. I didn't pay any attention to the rockers to see if they were the same paint. Once again I would like to see a orig paint low mile survivor with Semi or satin or flat on the tailpanel.
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What green L-78? I don't see it in the last 4 pages. Only the yellow Yenko.
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What green L-78?
Post # 20 directly after the yellow Yenko.
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I had a NOS black door stripe decal which matched the paint that was under the trunk weaterstrip. It wasn't gloss & it wasn't flat. More like a semi gloss. It also matched the rockers....Joe
So now we're painting D90, D91 and Rally stripes satin black instead of gloss?
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The green L78 I posted pics of is one of the most orig untouched Camaro's I have ever seen. It has a gloss tail panel. There is no way it is the same paint used to paint the firewall. I didn't pay any attention to the rockers to see if they were the same paint. Once again
The Yenko you can tell it has been painted gloss.......The green you can see by the reflectiveness, the black is not gloss but 30 years of wax which would make it appear gloss.
I would like to see a orig paint low mile survivor with Semi or satin or flat on the tailpanel.
Good luck finding one that has never been waxed.
Do you own this car? If you are not the orig owner I would not assume anything. Listen to the experts on this because you nor I are one of them.
Peace
Buddy
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The green L78 I posted pics of is one of the most orig untouched Camaro's I have ever seen. It has a gloss tail panel. There is no way it is the same paint used to paint the firewall. I didn't pay any attention to the rockers to see if they were the same paint. Once again I would like to see a orig paint low mile survivor with Semi or satin or flat on the tailpanel.
That does not look like full gloss to me. Looks like maintained lacquer with flattening agent. Go buy a pint of straight lacquer and shoot a test panel. And shoot a urethane test panel too. Unbuffed, unflattened black lacquer will be glossier than that L-78 tailpanel. Maintenance will bring the gloss up on semi or satin.
Even if it was an unbuffed/non reflowed black lacquer panel it would be as glossy as the adjacent green from upkeep; which it is not. That yellow Yenko is no doubt glossy. Looks like unbuffed lacquer but I could add f. agent to urethane till I achieved that look also. I've buffed flattened lacquer as a test and it came out glossy. And if these panels were indeed semi-gloss and not satin there is no doubt that 40 years of upkeep will raise the glossiness yet. I've sprayed all this stuff so I know. But I don't claim to know exactly what the factory did. If you want to experiment buy some black and f. agent. Or buy some PPG 9248 ,9317, 9266, and straight black and have a go at it. I'm going with semi-gloss or satin. Without a f.agent pecentage weight there is no accuracy on the call.
And you can't use decals as a paint comparison. ( In regard to the other post)
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"Listen to the experts on this because you nor I are one of them." And the experts are ? And you know I am not a expert because ? I have been collecting and working on Camaro's for probably 35 years and have owned probably a couple hundred. I feel pretty confident that the examples I posted were not shiny because of being waxed over the years. I make no claims to be the expert but I know what I have seen over the years and I try to pay attention to orig cars. The Yenko was a 8000 mile car and the green L78 is a maybe 12000 mile car ?
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My post states I don't claim to know what the factory did. Only what I see. As far as I can tell from those who have greater knowledge than I is they were painted full gloss and they were painted semi-gloss. I have not owned hundreds but a longtime friend has and sent as many through a crusher has his opinion too. But it really does not matter because after all this I still do not know what's correct.
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In the end it is your car, paint it any color you like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb5ZjmpmMbg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb5ZjmpmMbg)
:)
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Not a great example. Not a survivor, but OP in the jambs. Clearly not glossy, but the RG next to it isn't either. I would like to go back and check the trunk side of the w/s since that is an area that has neither seen the weather/elements nor has been rubbed/waxed.
My guess is that it was probably inconsistent, but I don't know. The only OP BB car we've done was about 10 years ago. Only have a couple poor pics, but it shows no reflection compared to the yellow next to it (kept indoors since the early-mid 70s) and would've made a mental note had it been glossy since back then the debate didn't really exist and the satin was what was thought to be correct.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RG%20396/100_4198b.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RG%20396/100_4197b.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/RG%20396/100_4181b.jpg)
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Here is a suggestion, since no one can definitely prove the exact color, why don't we all agree to just paint them satin (30%) for creating a current standard since gloss looks absolutely awful.
8)
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I guess it is possible there could have been some variance, but ALL of the original ones I remember in the late 60s and early 70s (not the ones 40 years old that have been waxed) were not shiny. Satin is what I would call them.
Talked to a friend who was a body and paint man for over 40 years and he said they were satin. He said there were several different blends that were used, but there were not what you would call a regular gloss paint. They did have to add flattening agents to the paint. That information was provided to the paint reps from the factory. Now I guess that could explain why there is some variance.
In my opinion, Jim Mattison would be considered an expert and his opinion was stated earlier in this thread.
Buddy and RamAirDave, thanks for the images of the paint in the trunk area.
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"Listen to the experts on this because you nor I are one of them." And the experts are ? And you know I am not a expert because ? I have been collecting and working on Camaro's for probably 35 years and have owned probably a couple hundred. I feel pretty confident that the examples I posted were not shiny because of being waxed over the years. I make no claims to be the expert but I know what I have seen over the years and I try to pay attention to orig cars. The Yenko was a 8000 mile car and the green L78 is a maybe 12000 mile car ?
In my opinion the tail panels and rockers were painted semi gloss. My focus has always been on the survivor cars and have had access to dozens of survivor cars and none have had a full gloss tail panels. I own survivor cars and the black tail panels and rockers were not painted with the same paint used when they painted the complete exterior black. I would estimate it is 70-80 percent gloss. Sorry Charley, but I can't let you get away without a counter point.
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And you know I am not a expert because ?
because you think they were painted gloss is the first clue.
Experts would include Jim Mattison and JohnZ among others.
::)
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Jim Mattison is also the guy that insists my 67 Pace car was built with a 427 even though I have the GM work orders calling for a 396. JohnZ also insisted his steel brake lines around the master cylinder came painted black. Lots of people have expertise, just not in all areas. Jerry MacNeish wrote books on Camaro's and in the books called out Satin I believe but even Jerry recently stated he looked at a very orig 68 and it was very shiny and might have to make a change to his book. Brian Hendersen of Supercar Workshop does what are considered the best Camaro restorations there are also says they are gloss. He was a top judge at Camaro's at Carlisle for years.
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For the record I do not possess 45 years of Camaro history nor have the most knowledgeable restoration data on exactness. And I respect all those who do. I'm just trying to sort all this out.
So one claim is the stripes and tailpanel were painted with unflattened lacquer (black stripes here). Which would mean they have identical sheens. Why has no one ever doubted that the stripes were or were not glossy? The stripes and rear panel would maintain the same integrity or degradation throughout the years on any given car. So how is it that the stripes reamain glossy and the tailpanel supposedly does not? Where is a person that pulled the trigger on these cars? I know what comes out of my nozzle.
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My Final post on this subject....
I WAS THERE when these cars rolled into the dealerships and my friends bought them(I couldn't afford one). I saw them and they were not gloss.
<edited per request; and it was out-of-line>
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What a great guy you are turning out to be Buddy....
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My Final post on this subject....
I WAS THERE when these cars rolled into the dealerships and my friends bought them(I couldn't afford one). I saw them and they were not gloss.
Buddy, we can disagree but do it respectfully. There is no room for your last comment. Lets take a step back and calm down. This forum is means to share ideas, information and theories. If each of us weren't allowed to voice his opinion (without being ridiculed) then we would never learn about these cars through others experiences. There is a wealth of information knowledge on this site let's keep it flowing by respecting each other.
<edited quote>
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Sorry...I was out of line...it just gets a little frustrating sometimes.......
All if fun........ 8)
B
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JohnZ also insisted his steel brake lines around the master cylinder came painted black
I don't know if JohnZ actually said that but I know mine were painted black in 1983 when I bought my PC, along with my booster. The brake lines still are and its not from someones rattlecan restoration of the engine compartment of my car. All of the armored lines on the front subframe are painted black from the master cylinder thu the proportioning valve to the bracket out on the outer edge of the subframe, while none of the brackets or clamps on the lines (the little rubber ones that hold the lines together have paint on them.
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Then you have NIKKISDAD on Team Camaro who insists his all orignal and heavily documented L89 never had any black paint on the tail panel :)
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My Final post on this subject....
I WAS THERE when these cars rolled into the dealerships and my friends bought them(I couldn't afford one). I saw them and they were not gloss.
I saw these cars in my youth as well. I have to agree, I never saw one with the tan pan painted gloss like the Yenko shown in this post. Of course I probably never saw an actual Yenko then either.
Jimmy V
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LOL...I was also there when these cars rolled into the dealerships but remember nothing.
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JohnZ also insisted his steel brake lines around the master cylinder came painted black.
Nope, I never said they were built that way - perhaps you have me confused with someone else. They were black on my original/unrestored '69 Z/28, but that was because the (Canadian-delivered new) car was dealer-undercoated, including the brake pipes from the distribution block to the subframe.
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I don't think we can put the COPO and Yenko cars in the same category when considering tailpan paint. I have seen original 69 COPO cars, I remember a silver one in particular, that had regular body color paint on the tailpan.
Does anyone have an SS car that they know the history of the car from Day 1 that it left the dealership? I would put a lot of weight behind what they think.
I am not sure if anyone would want to do this, and I am not asking anyone to do it, but if you tailpan is glossy, it would be interesting to see what it looks like without any wax on it.
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Mr. Miyagi was there too
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/wax_on_wax_off.jpg)
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I don't think we can put the COPO and Yenko cars in the same category when considering tailpan paint. I have seen original 69 COPO cars, I remember a silver one in particular, that had regular body color paint on the tailpan.
Does anyone have an SS car that they know the history of the car from Day 1 that it left the dealership? I would put a lot of weight behind what they think.
I am not sure if anyone would want to do this, and I am not asking anyone to do it, but if you tailpan is glossy, it would be interesting to see what it looks like without any wax on it.
The very early yenko's were X66 coded and painted just like any other big block. Nothing special about the paint process on them vs any other camaro.
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Here is a suggestion, since no one can definitely prove the exact color, why don't we all agree to just paint them satin (30%) for creating a current standard since gloss looks absolutely awful.
8)
I agree 100%. I will do that.
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For what it's worth my 68 43k mile RS/SS did not have a gloss tail pan nor were the bottoms of the doors or rockers gloss. I have been around enough gloss black lacquer... mine was not gloss. I will bet that the wrong "black" gun was picked up more than a few times during the process. I am willing to bet that more than one person was involved with the process on each vehicle which leaves open the possibility of some having gloss tails and semi rockers or visa versa...
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I wonder if you are right then there must be some gloss firewalls as well....hmmmmm ???
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There is an LA built Cortez Silver Z/28 with Fathom Green firewall "blackout"
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Here are pics of 26000 mile 69 that is still with the orig owner. Orig owner says the tail panel has always been gloss.
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Any chance the original owner has some pictures of that tail panel from when he/she bought the car? I bet not.
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http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/433135/an/0/page/0#Post433135
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Are you saying "I bet not" because you think the owner repainted it ? Because you are stuck on it being semi gloss ?
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Are you saying "I bet not" because you think the owner repainted it ? Because you are stuck on it being semi gloss ?
No, not repainted, just stuck on the fact that Lacquer becomes shinier the more you rub on it. Could be that way now from years of polishing or even some inexperienced or over zealous prep guy at the dealer hit it with a wheel before he even saw the car to buy it. I’ll even buy firstgenaddict’s theory of grabbing the wrong gun or my spin on it, problem with the semi-gloss gun and using full gloss until the semi was fixed but firmly believe they were all supposed to be semi from the factory.
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LOL...Or maybe it was gloss when new as the owner stated.
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LOL, or maybe not...memory fades with time & age but to each his own. To bad those pic's on the dealer lot weren't better.
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That is why it is nice when we find low mile cars with orig owners that we can ask. The low mile takes alot of the fading memory out of the equation.
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Charley, I agree with you 100% on being totally enthusiastic about finding survivor cars to inspect and document but just because one car is one way doesn't mean they were all that way…(hell my car has a body colored firewall (no black out) and it came from the factory that way) But that's why places like CRG is awesome because they compile data on many, many cars before making any call on what the DATA proves. Unfortunately this is a paint finish dilemma where many factors come into play such as fading, polishing, refinishing, ect...and without a lot of hard evidence it's impossible to say what's absolutely correct here and probably why there’s no definitive right or wrong. And as for memory fading, how many times do you say to yourself "I could swear it was this way" or "wow, I don't remember it being that way" when going back and referencing pictures or the AIM when working on your car...I know I do it all the time & that's why I took over 700 pictures when pulling my 59000 mile car apart and probably why it got a score of 91.6% correct my first year in legends concours. Just saying the original owner may remember it one way, and the car may only have 26000 miles on it but it’s still 40 years old and even if the owner only washed & waxed it once a month, that’s still 480 times that panel and paint have been buffed and rubbed on. Even at a ¼ of that number semi gloss will be getting pretty shiny.
Again, just my opinion and opinions are like a**holes, everyone’s got one! ;D
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This car is just another example of survivors that I have seen that have the gloss tail panel. I have yet to see a orig paint survivor with Satin tail panel. The odds seem pretty slim to me that these panels are shiny because of waxing.
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Pex68...Give it up...Charlie believes what he believes and even though 90% of the experts and others believe otherwise you will NOT change his mind. It's like convincing the far left that Obama is destroying our country. Ain't gonna happen 8)
Sorry Charlie..no disrespect here.
Move on...there's nothing to see here......
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LOL...Where are the 90% of the experts ? Who are they ?
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The experts are on that other site. I'm still learning. LOL.
I'll throw my hat into the ring. Originally, many thought these panels were satin black. Research has indicated that they had more gloss, but not like a slick painted, wet sanded and buffed out black. More like an egg shell black which is really black lacquer w/o buffing and wet sanding. That's how my new Chevelle was and other survivor Camaros that I've inspected over the years.
Merry Christmas Everyone! Ho, Ho Ho!
Jerry
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Thankyou...That description fits with what I am seeing on the green survivor I posted pics of. You can see that it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.
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Same way on J. DeMesy's silver SS car that was at the Camaro Nationals this past June. The past owner's family had hired me to inspect the car and try and find it a good home. This SS396 car was one of the nicest original paint cars that I've seen.
But again, I'm no expert.
Jerry
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This is what I have been trying to explain to others. Perhaps they have never picked up a gun nor understand the principles of lacquer or the appearance it has when shot. People think full gloss and immediately compare it to buffed lacquer or urethane, both of which scream glossiness. But unbuffed lacquer has a semi-gloss appearance. And in time with maintenance may get a tad shinier. I've buffed satin paint to a gloss before and it takes more than a little elbow grease with wax to achieve it. We shot a fender with lacquer on a black 69 last month. The entire car was shot with lacquer years ago and until that fender was buffed the difference was night and day. I'm not an origionality expert and can't say if all tails were painted identically. This information is offered for the purposes of paint and it's characteristics and the variations therein.
Thankyou...That description fits with what I am seeing on the green survivor I posted pics of. You can see that it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.
The experts are on that other site. I'm still learning. LOL.
I'll throw my hat into the ring. Originally, many thought these panels were satin black. Research has indicated that they had more gloss, but not like a slick painted, wet sanded and buffed out black. More like an egg shell black which is really black lacquer w/o buffing and wet sanding. That's how my new Chevelle was and other survivor Camaros that I've inspected over the years.
Merry Christmas Everyone! Ho, Ho Ho!
Jerry
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Thankyou...That description fits with what I am seeing on the green survivor I posted pics of. You can see that it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.
He just said' NOT GLOSS'..... ::) Egg Shell is a Semi.
I am confused with this statement....... it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.????????????????
:)
Just keeping going for the fun of it.
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LOL...If you look at the picture of the green tail panel on the survivor you can see the texture in the reflection. just like if you spray straight lacquer and don't sand an rub it. It is glossy though.
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Thankyou...That description fits with what I am seeing on the green survivor I posted pics of. You can see that it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.
He just said' NOT GLOSS'..... ::) Egg Shell is a Semi.
I am confused with this statement....... it is not blocked smooth, but it is glossy.????????????????
:)
Just keeping going for the fun of it.
I'll try this yet again. Spray two panels with black LACQUER. Buff one, leave the other one alone. You will see a difference besides the fact one has more peel than the other. The only way lacquer's shine is enhanced and maximized is by polishing, or reflowed like they did then. So a tailpanel will appear glossy but not to the extent of which it is capable. It's glossiness is relative to a buffed panel. Anyone who has shot a car with lacquer knows it looks horrible until buffed.
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I'm no expert ;),but I learn something new all the time. I always try to replicate what I see regardless of what everyone says. Here is a photo of an original paint 67 big block rear panel. I removed the taillamp for inspection and found that the area behind the taillamp ,that was not faded,to be what I would call semi-gloss. Notice it is about the same as the NOS inner fender panel to the left of the car. 60% gloss is what the paint books show for blackout,and that is what I will use to replicate what I have found on this car. The lower rocker panels are the same color. I will take more detailed photos before starting the restoration next fall. Many more details to iron out and parts to gather! Andy V
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As Bill Clinton would say, It depends on what your definition of Glossy is....hehe
My definition is it is either Glossy or it is not. Lacquer is SEMI (to some degree) until worked out or reflowed.
Why is there no poll on this thread?? Are polls allowed on this Forum??
8)
By the way...Merry Christmas everybody...... :D
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I have been around Camaros for a while and can say that I learn something new about them all the time.
I have inspected more than a few original paint Camaros and what I can say it that I personally have never seen an original paint first generation tail panel which was painted Flat Black or Satin Black, while I have seen original paint first gens, painted with Gloss Black lacquer. Not saying that it won't happen but thus far never has. The fact regarding the degree of gloss is subjective and can be visually affected by several factors, including the base color of the actual car.
Some of the original cars had very little Black paint on them, maybe two coats and you could even see the base color poking through in some areas. This provided for a less shiny black in some cases but it was still Gloss Black lacquer.
Once again these have been unfattened Gloss Black Lacquer. Wether or not is was buffed to a mirror finish afterwards, (which I do not believe it was) doesn't change that they were Gloss Black Lacquer paint.
While wet sanded, buffed and polished Gloss Black will look different than non detailed Gloss Black lacquer, it is still gloss black lacquer and not the same as "satin" or "flat"
Chevelles, Mopars ect may or may not follow this patern and should not be used as a reference as to what may or may not have been done with Camaros.
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Back to the point that no lacquer is gloss when applied. Even if it is called gloss lacquer. You have to finish it to get the glossy look. Believe me, GM did not do this.
Post some pics of these cars you inspected. THX
8)
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The best thing to do is this: go to your local paint supplier and get a spray out card done in black lacquer. Then get a custom match mixed up in the new B/C C/C paint. Many are doing it this way and it's the best way to go as you have someone educated in this paint and what you are looking for.
Jerry
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I think that is a good idea for people with no paint experience. I myself have been painting for 25 years and used lacquer exclusively in the early 80's. I hope people will follow your advice and see for themselves that lacquer is not glossy. (Shiny is not Glossy).
Buddy
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"Shiny is not Glossy" huh ?
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Drop the bumper or remove the tail lights. If it still has the factory finish there will be untouched paint. My O5C LA car was glossy since i purchased it in 1980, This year i stripped the car and had it repainted and am now sure it was semi-gloss.
Victor
Re: black on tailpan on ss cars
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2009, 07:53:36 PM »
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Don't want to start this up again, but i thought this might be another good referance point. Here is a pic to a tail pan with factory paint with the tail light removed. I had waxed the left side to get rid of the fading. The paint around the light matches. The right side of the pic is untouched, dirt and all. It's semi and looks very close to the tail pan on Post #20. Definately not full gloss.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2816camaro/
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Just came upon this site and decided to add my 2 cents (well 2 cents in '68....probably a quarter today) Anyway, read a lot of posts about the gloss and semi-gloss debate and from what I can tell almost all, if not all, are opinions. Hope this will set the record straight as I actually ordered a new 1968 RS/SS 396 Camaro from Southeast Chevrolet (it no longer exists) on Broadway Ave in Cleveland, Ohio in February of 1968 and it arrived in May. Bottom line................The tailpan was painted a Satin Black when it arrived at the dealership. It was a real striking contrast to the LeMans Blue color on the car. So, unless someone else "Actually ordered" and picked up a new 1968 396 Camaro please consider it an opinion as my statement is fact. Thanks for the opportunity to clear up the debate on this subject.
'
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LOL...No matter what side of the discussion you are on your opinion is still just a opinion unless you provide nice color pics to back it up taken back then. You can't really believe that you can come tell us you bought one new, it was Satin and have us just blindly believe you. My Son could join this site and make the same statement but in reality he was born in 81. Welcome to the site and I don't see why you would not state anything other than what you remember but we really are looking for pics etc that really prove. I remember a guy telling us he was there back in the day and watched all the ZL1's being built in a shop in L.A.
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Just came upon this site and decided to add my 2 cents (well 2 cents in '68....probably a quarter today) Anyway, read a lot of posts about the gloss and semi-gloss debate and from what I can tell almost all, if not all, are opinions. Hope this will set the record straight as I actually ordered a new 1968 RS/SS 396 Camaro from Southeast Chevrolet (it no longer exists) on Broadway Ave in Cleveland, Ohio in February of 1968 and it arrived in May. Bottom line................The tailpan was painted a Satin Black when it arrived at the dealership. It was a real striking contrast to the LeMans Blue color on the car. So, unless someone else "Actually ordered" and picked up a new 1968 396 Camaro please consider it an opinion as my statement is fact. Thanks for the opportunity to clear up the debate on this subject.
I think you are right; I totally agree with you as that is what I recall from new ones at that time.. 'glossy' black on the tailpan would have really stood out too much, and my mind remembers 'satin'. Don't you have a pix or two from the first day you bought it? S*
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Wow....this is an old topic. The difference today is with a little gum shoe detective work I can likely find one of the Norwood guys who:
Supervised this operation, mixed the paint or actually sprayed the panel.
Why not assist in the ongoing research? You can Join us and create your own network of connections for a variety of factory topics.
Info here: http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/543679/GM_Retiree_Day#Post543679
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Cool, we will be waiting to see what you can find out.
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Cool, we will be waiting to see what you can find out.
Thanks Mark!
For the rest of you who may be interested in exploring research first hand -this is a great opportunity to share in the rediscovery of the details of historic Manufacturing and Assembly practices associated with GM and its products.
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I'll bet the results of any findings will circle back to being the same paint that was applied to the firewall and R/S rocker blackouts was the same used for the 396 SS tail blackouts. That is the only thing that makes any logical and economic sense for mass production. The 396 BB cars were a small percentage of total production and it would not seem likely Fisher would have a separate gloss percentage mixture just for the BB SS treatment.
I loosened my 67 BB survivors tail light assembly and looked at the original black paint under the gasket and it looks like semi black. It is definitely not gloss.
Mike
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My cousin came back from the war and bought his new 69 Camaro; orange with white interior. Dad and I drove over to see the car; and it was really impressive, it did not even have license plates on it yet. We walked around the car from front to back and the smile on dad's face turned to a frown.
"why did you paint that ugly black paint on the back of a new car?" Dad didn't like it. "It came that way" was the answer. My recollection is that it was neither a bright gloss or a dull flat black. Something in between; we always wondered why they selected that kind of paint for the tail panel. I saw the car up
close a lot; the deal was.......
"wash and detail my car and I'll let you ride around in it with me." So my younger cousin and I spent many hours detailing that car out. Good
memories.
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How skeptical people can be. As for pics (they were polaroids back then) as far as I know all were lost in a fire on Labor Day 1976 along with part of the skin on my wrist. Yes anyone can join a site and say anything. There seemed to be quite a discussion about the black tailpan and I offered the benefit of the knowledge of a person who actually ordered a brand new 1968 RS/SS 396 Camaro, who had to wait around 6 weeks for it and, picked it up at the dealership when it arrived. The memories from a person who spent many weekends washing the car and now many people many think I may be offering an opinion about the satin black instead of fact. I really do not need to research history when I "lived" the history. That was a very special car to me as it was not only my first Camaro (I have owned several since then) but, it was my very first car, the one I remember the most. I have many fond memories listening to The Doors on my 8 track tape player while cruisin' around town. Now I wonder how many on this site actually own a Camaro! How many of you even think I never owned a Camaro! Through all the posts I read about this....not one person expressed actually ordering the Camaro (again, actually living the history, not having to research it). The tailpan was painted satin black. For those non believers you have your opinions.
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I thought John Z ( I pretty much consider his word gospel) put this topic to bed stating ( paraphrase) When they mixed the batches for blacking out (rockers, etc) it was the same color for cost considerations ( see rocker panel color)
Also ,see another Cleveland guy ! Still have my " certificate of purchase " from Super Shops w117th for a 850 Holley I bought years ago.
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.....snip..... How many of you even think I never owned a Camaro! Through all the posts I read about this....not one person expressed actually ordering the Camaro (again, actually living the history, not having to research it). The tailpan was painted satin black. For those non believers you have your opinions.
Not sure where that is coming fro but nobody is doubting if you owned one or not. As for satin or semigloss......those two are very close in sheen and unless someone has a gloss meter each person will interpert it differently, if not the same. In the end I think most would agree it was not gloss and was, in fact, semigloss/satin/egg shell....whatever terminology you want to use. I personally believe the GM reconditioning black paint is the correct gloss for firewall/RS rockers and tail blackouts.
Mike
Mike
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FWIW.. Original paint 68 3D build L78 with 68K miles and has been garage kept all its life..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/DSC02895_zpsf9e07e70.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superslow/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/DSC02895_zpsf9e07e70.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/DSC02894_zps06e1a0a3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superslow/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/DSC02894_zps06e1a0a3.jpg.html)
I can get better pics if needed..
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For what it's worth here is a picture the original owner took in Dec. 1968, of his 09D 68 L-78.
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Why do we keep beating this to death? At last we have some pics. to prove it was satin/ or/Semi-gloss. Even in VINCE Z28 photo, as small as the tail is, you can clearly see it is not as glossy as the rest of the car.
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If the theory is the same black was used in many areas here is a firewall example not exposed to the elements.
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another
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........
Not sure where that is coming fro but nobody is doubting if you owned one or not. As for satin or semigloss......those two are very close in sheen and unless someone has a gloss meter each person will interpert it differently, if not the same. In the end I think most would agree it was not gloss and was, in fact, semigloss/satin/egg shell....whatever terminology you want to use. I personally believe the GM reconditioning black paint is the correct gloss for firewall/RS rockers and tail blackouts.
[/quote]
Until better evidence presents itself, Mike.. I believe as you do.. reconditioning black... for all the 'black out' areas..
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How does the look of GM reconditioning black look compared to the pics I just posted ?
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Charley, So close I can't tell any difference from your photos to things I've painted with it, given that there will be small differences in gloss based on conditions and how it's sprayed.
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Before repainting my tail pan & rocker panels I searched for information on correct paint finish. There are many different opinions on what the correct gloss should be but when John mentioned the blackout paint was the same that prompted me to check that out. I have one picture here of rocker over spray on my car, second is the tail pan on a black 5K original paint car, third is a tail pan on a one owner 11K. The percentage of reflection from all 3 look the same even though it might not show in the photos.
I had to take multiple pictures at different angles to capture a picture that close to what I saw with my eye, so it is hard to determine paint gloss from random pictures.
I think the black 5K rear panel picture was the best for me in determining the correct percentage of gloss. George.
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Let me pose this question. Could it be that different gloss levels were used on different years?
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Probably not, it would come down to the manufacturing process and equipment available. There was already a black gun in the blackout booth used for the firewall on all cars (suppossed to anyway), Why would they have a second black gun on hand that they would need to use on the rockers of all style trim cars (probably 30% of production) and on Big blocks (probably 15% of production. Whatever they used on the firewall (gloss, semigloss, satin) is more than likely what they used on the rockers and on the tail panel. More colors mean they need more piping installed to carry the paint, or local tanks in the booth to hold the paint, all for almost zero gain from a styling point of view. did it really matter to GM or the customer if the paint was semi gloss, or gloss? No, thats just the way it came.
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I look at the pics above and they show reflections, as in they have a gloss. What I see people thinking is correct is a non reflective semi or satin.
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semi-gloss DOES have gloss (not full gloss), but something less. Even "flat" has a small degree of gloss (as it's extremely difficult to achieve totally flat surfaces - re reflections).
During the last 60's/early 70's all of the American car makers used some 'non glossy' black accents on their performance cars. in some cases, it was much much flatter than what Chevrolet used. The problem with all of those 'non full gloss' paints is that just rubbing them, washing them, polishing them, etc... made them MORE glossy! Have you ever seen the flat black paints after they've been washed, rubbed, etc for a number of years? They look more glossy as a result of all that.
So, talking about how glossy, or non glossy, 44 yr old 'original' paint is NOW.. is subject to a LOT of error sources. I'm old enough to remember how these early Camaros looked when new, and I owned some then, and had many friends with them as well. I bought a new '70 RR, with a non-glossy black on the hood, and I remember like yesterday how difficult it was when polishing/waxing the car, NOT to get anything on the black portion, as it made it look ugly when you got polish or wax on the edges of the black hood. A lot of people would just polish / wax the entire thing, for a consistent look, even though it totally changed the 'gloss level' as painted in the factory.
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This is only my opinion, which I've restated as many times as new threads appear. To me the tail panel used "black out" paint which was a semi gloss. If you polish semi gloss it will become more reflective and change towards a gloss. I do not believe based on what I have inspected/examined that the "black out" paint was the same paint they applied to black cars. To prove my observation look at the second picture in NOYENKO posted #131, and you'll see the contrast between the black exterior paint and the tail panel paint.
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Mark,
The tail panels were painted at NOR on the open line area at nearly the same time the RS Black out was painted. This was completed external to a booth.
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From the assemlby report;
"If the car required Z28, Z10, or Z11 stripes or a black rear end panel or rockers, they were masked and manually sprayed in the in-line repair booth/oven system after the reflow oven, including the cowl vent panel; spoilers were painted body color separate from the body, and were final-installed to the deck lid just prior to the repair booth. The rear window filler panel, deck lid and spoiler were masked and sprayed stripe color in the repair booth, and baked in the repair oven before the body went back downstairs to the Trim Shop. The paint guns in the repair booth were fed from manifolds that were part of the main color circulating system so that the repair booth used exactly the same paint the main color booths were using."
Was this physically before, or after the blackout booth on the line?
The statement above indicating the repair booth as the source of panel blackout almost makes it a done deal that the rocker panels and tail panel were painted using the same black paint as the rest of the car was painted with, however while it was reflowed to an extent, it was not buffed out to a final shine like the rest of the body was.
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Mark,
For NOR I have a picture in the book showing this element taking place on the line. I did not precisely determine where just yet but that would be easy enough since the vending machines are in the background. I can look at the prints for vending areas that were set up adjacent to the paint line areas.
We could simply ask the guys that did this work, or you could ask these same guys this question and many more on any topic. I still have a few spots open for the Norwood GM Heritage center trip and tour.
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Good info Festival, can you post a picture of that? We are all fans of pictures here, thanks!
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Mark,
For NOR I have a picture in the book showing this element taking place on the line. I did not precisely determine where just yet but that would be easy enough since the vending machines are in the background. I can look at the prints for vending areas that were set up adjacent to the paint line areas.
We could simply ask the guys that did this work, or you could ask these same guys this question and many more on any topic. I still have a few spots open for the Norwood GM Heritage center trip and tour.
How about some details on the GM Norwood heritage center tour??
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Good info Festival, can you post a picture of that? We are all fans of pictures here, thanks!
Picture is covered by a copyright agreement. I cannot post it on the internet. For those with the book "Echoes of Norwood" turn to page 128.
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[/quote]
How about some details on the GM Norwood heritage center tour??
[/quote]
Details Here: http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/543679/GM_Retiree_Day#Post543679
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it was not buffed out to a final shine like the rest of the body was.
They buffed all these cars?
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I guess polished is to high a description, they were wet sanded with mineral spirits pror to going back into the main line reflow oven. Only cars produced by GM for shows, and special events like the real indy pace cars used at the tracks were actually cut and polished.
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I look at the pics above and they show reflections, as in they have a gloss. What I see people thinking is correct is a non reflective semi or satin.
Not to mention that there is ultraviolet deterioration/oxidation on exposed paint not found on the photos that Charley posted.
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since we are having quite a discussion on 'gloss' 'semigloss', etc, I think it would be beneficial if we all shared a similar definition. The following link has both general definitions, and very good technical definitions of 'gloss' from an optical perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloss_(optics)
and since when we 'see' gloss, we are basically seeing the light reflected from a surface, the following definition of 'reflectance' and reflectivity is important to understand.
http://www.answers.com/topic/reflectivity
Having worked in the optical and imaging fields of engineering for 40 years, I would prefer if we all used similar words and definitions.. :)
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Figured I would beat on this dead horse some more.. Ran across this picture the other day thought I would post it up. My father with his 68 L78 in the mid 80's..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/e7ecf686-fb56-4b9c-81cb-c48d6e5f1ca5_zps5ea1410a.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superslow/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/e7ecf686-fb56-4b9c-81cb-c48d6e5f1ca5_zps5ea1410a.jpg.html)
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Youtube video also..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5q7r-p_M8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5q7r-p_M8)
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Great picture and video, Darrell.. Hopefully your dad is still enjoying them! :)
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He did & still does thru me ( is what I like to think). He passed 7 years ago just a few days ago. 26th..
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I'm sure he enjoys them through you. Man that is A LOT of rubber back there. I remember when guys proudly ran that much tire.
Your a lucky guy to be a second generation Camaro enthusiast :D
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Not to get this thread side tracked..
I'm sure he enjoys them through you. Man that is A LOT of rubber back there. I remember when guys proudly ran that much tire.
Your a lucky guy to be a second generation Camaro enthusiast :D
The same wheels & tires will be run on the 67 from time to time..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/1967%20Camaro/CragerSS2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superslow/media/1967%20Camaro/CragerSS2.jpg.html)
Ending hijack...
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Ok here are some photos of Lucite Black Lacquer.
Flattened 10% 20% 30% by weight then taped off and polished with Meguires swirl remover and showcar glaze
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OCfpD6jITB8/VBsPU83ggQI/AAAAAAAAIt8/htUJhna82d4/s720/100_2101.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--4iYZWJ_F-I/VBsPS1ta-lI/AAAAAAAAItk/L0wZWMY63vI/s720/100_2098.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yQqRsNx1er0/VBsPT1uBq0I/AAAAAAAAItw/dvghrDHDEaU/s720/100_2100.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XOWiZqGeuog/VBsQxQ5Nj6I/AAAAAAAAIu0/e75YrZHHs24/s720/100_2104.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bLzhj87-g5A/VBsPwtMcZwI/AAAAAAAAIuc/dP0RRFScVtY/s720/100B2121.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-knOSvD0072o/VBsPV2vDKXI/AAAAAAAAIuE/eqrIK91VPs0/s720/100_2103.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CMmGLumISOw/VBsQigOp83I/AAAAAAAAIuo/8NOo-gwz-0E/s720/100B2192.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j296Yi5ZLNs/VBsQjCpXHTI/AAAAAAAAIus/GPKco7S-1c0/s720/100B2201.JPG)
Unpolished --- 10% at the top ---20% in the center --- 30% closest to viewer
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3I_0Hr4rcxM/VBsPWlMIvnI/AAAAAAAAIuM/zzx5d7OlO1M/s720/100_2151.JPG)
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10 or 20% looks the closest to what I have to compare it to.
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/1968RallyeGreenSSL78CamaroApril1968-1_zps3251e6c3.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/1968RallyeGreenSSL78CamaroApril1968-1_zps3251e6c3.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/68afterwax3_zps55c5f24a.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/68afterwax3_zps55c5f24a.jpg.html)
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Darrell, your pics are excellent. This topic came up again on yenko.net. Seeing how a majority of the pics for this thread have disappeared, I'll add a couple of mine and an original ad pic.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Tail%20Panel/20120901_154616.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Tail%20Panel/20120901_154616.jpg.html)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Tail%20Panel/IMAG0637.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Tail%20Panel/IMAG0637.jpg.html)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/69%20Blackout/Tail%20Panel%20Black%20out.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/69%20Blackout/Tail%20Panel%20Black%20out.jpg.html)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/69%20Blackout/Tail%20Panel%20Black%20out%20high%20res.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Reference/69%20Blackout/Tail%20Panel%20Black%20out%20high%20res.jpg.html)
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The YSC thread took an interesting turn. I hate dead end threads, so see this quote:
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/640000/69-camaro-bb-blacked-out-panel#Post640000
"Again I am pretty protective of the book research but again for the sake of giving you a definitive answer here is a Photo excerpt from the book "Echoes of Norwood" © 2013 Philip Borris and some additional non published research that was not put in the book (but perhaps I should have?)
"The back panel paint was applied on the line between ovens 2 and 3. The paint was the same paint used on the rockers. The gloss difference was a technical result of the temperature differences within the last reflow oven. The first being where the upper portions of the body were exposed to more consistent heat than the rockers and the reflow process was always more glossy in those areas".
"If there was a temperature difference in plant say a summer day- the body was already hot going into the oven - warm to the touch- as opposed to a winter day where the body would be cool to the touch. All of these factors played into the final reflow outcome"
"Cars built in cooler conditions in plant probably were less prone to high gloss where cars that cycled into the oven on a hot day had better and more consistent reflow due to the oven getting a fairly warm body to start with"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is my hope that this will put this issue to bed once and for all.
The above is an excerpt of an interview from 6 years ago from the paint Department supervisor who was actually there and can prove he was there.
His name appears on the 1969 personnel listing at Norwood as a Fisher Body employee in paint. In addition He supervised the man in the picture below.
My Guess...
Cars built in the summer glossy
Cars built in the winter less glossy
Spring and Fall split the gloss %
Merry Christmas!! Enjoy."
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I don't believe in the Easter Bunny either. :)
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Well he brings me chocolate covered eggs..
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Just because Mr Borris isn't nearly as uniquely knowledgable as he believes he is... doesn't mean that he can't deliver an occasional nugget from his research.. :)
... that particular excerpt has a ring of fact to my ears...
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The quote coupled with the picture on the assembly line leads me to believe what he said was factual at least about the rockers and the tail panel being shot with the same paint. I never argued that point though... Whether it left the factory as a higher gloss or not doesn't matter much to me on my own build. Mine will definitely be closer to satin if that's what the 68 in the print ad is considered. Call it a day two mod if you must lol
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The argument that the temperature differences at different periods of the year (going into the reflow process) being what affected the gloss also made a lot of sense... Personally I doubt very seriously that the specific percentages of gloss level were held to a high tolerance in the plants.
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You can't use any of GMs print ads as being technically correct for anything, they were touched up and or made up by the ads designers. Look at the perimeter of that 68s tail panel, it has a body color pin stripe running around it , and the trunklid emblem is way to high up on the trunklid. Half that car has been modified by the artists, But yes the rocker and tail panel paint is the same physical paint from the same gun, and its relative glossiness or not has nothing to do with a few degrees of factory air temperature. There was probably not much concern given to the level of shine or glossiness of this blackout treatment, If there was a requirement for a particular level of gloss and the paint shops couldn't account for variations in humidity, temperatures and any variations in the drying oven temperatures then they probably wouldn't have a job for very long
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At least for 67 and 68 my opinion is they were satin. That is my recollection and it agrees with most others. Not gloss and not flat. As to what degree, well that is subjective.
In 2009 when I redid the rear panel blackout on my car (this car has been repainted at least 3 times since new and at least the last time they did not paint the back panel black) we tested some different levels of satin. The painter, who started painting in the 60s - and he knew what he was doing, agreed based on his experience that satin was correct.
For 69, I am not quite as sure.
I do agree different degrees of gloss or flatness could have occurred, more likely due to mixing though, and not due to temperature differences. But I will try to check with a couple of old painters that I know. Both have over 50 years experience.
When Ed checked with Jim Mattison, I thought that was very important to note.
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I looked back thru this discussion and noticed several pictures are missing, so I thought I would repost this picture of an original paint 69 with 5k.
Clearly shows gloss difference between body and rear panel. Happy New Years guys! George
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I looked back thru this discussion and noticed several pictures are missing, so I thought I would repost this picture of an original paint 69 with 5k.
Clearly shows gloss difference between body and rear panel. Happy New Years guys! George
How was that verified George? The reason I ask is that normally black is the exception to the tail panel black out. If it is definitely original, that's pretty interesting to say the least.
From CRG:
"Black-out Paint Applications
Certain first-generation Camaro models had semi-gloss black-out paint applied to the body to influence the appearance. There were two types: a "ground-effect" black-out applied to the rocker-panel/body-sill area for certain exterior trim options and a blacked-out tailpan applied to SS-396 cars.
Body sill black-out paint was applied to Z22 (RS) cars in 1967 and 1968 and to Z21 (style trim) and Z22 (RS) in 1969. But there were several body colors that were simply just too dark for this paint scheme to be effective and for these colors, the body sill black-out paint was omitted. Additionally, the body sill black-out was omitted for the 1969 Z11 Indy Pace Car convertible trim package and the 1969 Z10 coupe trim package. A Chevrolet Product Bulletin dated 2-4-69 describes the Z11 (Pace Car trim package) package and includes this instruction: "Body sill to be painted white instead of black." Although no instructions have been found for the Z10 coupe, the intent would have been the same.
There was also a paint color exception for the SS-396 tailpan black-out, but it was limited to black vehicles and the Z11 and Z10. Black SS-396 cars would not have received the (semi-gloss) blacked-out tailpans. But it should be noted that a few original paint black SS-396's have been observed with blacked-out tailpanels - the paint difference is only visible at the paint tape line."
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Dave here is a discussion from years ago on the tail pan paint. http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7348.msg48577#msg48577.
This car is one of the most original 396's I have ever seen, other than a couple things under the hood. It is owned by "black69" a member here. Steve from Vintage Certification may have looked at the car at MCACN. It has been verified as original paint. George
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Dave here is a discussion from years ago on the tail pan paint. http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7348.msg48577#msg48577.
This car is one of the most original 396's I have ever seen, other than a couple things under the hood. It is owned by "black69" a member here. Steve from Vintage Certification may have looked at the car at MCACN. It has been verified as original paint. George
Thanks George. As with a lot of older threads, it's too bad that the pictures can't be archived so they'll be there when we go back for research. I'll be the first to admit that as far as the black on black, all my knowledge comes from CRG. I didn't really hold an opinion either way on that debate. I will say I'm surprised someone bothered to actually paint the black out.
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Does that black SS 396 also have blacked out rockers? By the taillight chrome it has at least the Z21 style trim package on it, and also appears to be an RS, by the lack of B/U lamp in the center taillamp lens.
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If that's Mike N's Baldwin Motion car, then we Vintage Certified it in 2008ish at the Camaro Nationals. There is another Black RS/SS L78 out of Chicago with black w/red hockey stripe that also has a blacked out tail identical to this one. It was in our Vintage display at MCACN's but never certified.
Both black cars were RS/SS's
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Steve, I believe the car I posted the picture of is one in the same, from 2011 MCAN. George
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Ok from front to back these are black lacquer 30% flattener, 20% then rear is 10%
The next sets will show up close of the 20% and 30% which I then taped and polished with fine cut cleaner and then swirl remover - Removing the tape reveals to what extent polishing changes the texture.
Finally shown is what I mix myself -
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5kampAS9I-QMAr-dKZ8lMXzWj4CJG1IysNF_UKFUQpxyO0VAoydKCU3ql1oVgdJ409S1e4vHPTta1PkBcv32ZEJ3fVxyGz20BCUaINcI--ywwId_ZHNC5DUEAKYPMMjQQbs1QhMkfR3aeGIEuGCI57qRuWSwYdgGotWzWw2BNwLWz0kOgRQd9lki6_egGVd_43AyWm_Jy_HIcuPeWzi4vm4I6uGDuwSkiFtobnJ6tQ1Kj7aPH85zIUsm3lQxUYn1o_KCd9APS2V8s-cdyGu2baNL7yjbD_-I5z2F0B3uA-F95jACHruRFIT3C7VoHLcJSPvWxVH_n2kdiD-F70E9vvgPkQrQaUm8Bys12Uk7EUyyu67KKkYF2ZRGyivYowH8dYJwwr0aRMTTh7jOnWfod8uZyNjSGQ1V1eHmEvYC_wrSHZT8ZppebhKEgVcoKV5tCnOHrQivI6gk46NWpS8uEmM9b1TqFyJcbQpd-EygJY0-_U2RKJ5Rt04C4cfT_Ga8JtUmQxF-3gTY_dRSoxKXOh66VC8zz_w6ob5bOvLvf3HwCKqNO_rDquGwZZf5Ig-Ul2Uz=w1265-h844-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CEfJhChrQV4dmEt1LNJuGM7RISG2TJhP-AUnsP0hnKaoz-KWc5doQ84IhwZL6v5-5Ei-pVGOgXW_nDlFRUChXJc7R5up7qtNc3rRKnQ2k_t21-UOy1uJTJ6GHgIJephi5l9QGLhcTQYeaLrMCWfCVgvZcFPiL_5b3c2Lc55qpCIydM73py6U_OqrS0QOQdTplTeG7PekG-d-FP3d-BF2Q8Fm07L8_1efaBgast6Pq1NJz5Bs4aJQjgt83cDwaNK-O0EPTnY49Lpxt4Tl00rOXKKIK-FmcFRX7i-wvFcNDuOAsQE9_eFWcTLpZ_ftcFHdECd-alN8pohlM-lF-QfupDDSqYoFphKfYewkq_s9d3LBxjGkzgkZdwsvw-K3irKAfc0u2PwXyboLyQU-3cx7Rf9hTzX3XTaX7GRUDZRWPWAcXaF7zColXl6vutSFB9oK9iVK6McWW0AP_dPGHMP4M63XPPKeyDlHlnpd-nfDJ_vL5GXyiYXnGwXvFcBSVB7ZpxJIXKfw6ZF5zzY2FPhN1pYH_NnXNOiJMrwQBN1AjJPvs2O3cRs8bFqS8b97RcCK94-W=w1265-h844-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kgOG-M5ECU5uOXBHEiCpFs-1qI10B8klsUNItZY7p_zlGkT6ZM2JDiZqxldwiH3xeQtuRUfCfSjtGE91o6lmdrboftqQ_ivTmsLqJd_bYk1GdyG4uMR_PpDN9LcJlSl0QKyDYNWQgNbXJ3sU24M7YWMHqgar--s8MRz5uZYcm1_EDnv0TQ7eL2o0gShz2U3GKlcSv9rSxQw5LG-QhCxzLsku0USnIudVlxIIAsj0FYl056w-7nUiF8Dr6flFInx3iI1TsO4RR8gENEqjq37dKkSqS29Fm4NwZYB4T0IN4QBzpFnBeC6fmUNoRk8tHAM5tladGgUXLxBTlYQqwAmADhFJ5AzTVOlGPSG6FcaZdBgjIFEwu6feDJwOLtGMdC4gIggjx5GSHQ-zJ6ZS4lPdK5NPkSlcZQ9RDMVz-WkHG8fMGCqXjxkaV1ftEnDIAxMp2KHpTPC1h_Devwn62nKBL7k2GT8mym_a70yztLNdXEvcYrOJ4Dq5_BswbG0G6nxa7g2TBjuu63PT0wmcBHZGMokw1AahB_jYRGkD87iO16r7jzeZacUFXkr8CNj76N6RxSWB=w1265-h844-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5RYTiI-hBtv_TzS2Ch7885tZVIQwv-bqLeurGUG0kJdqcGE4wMiDVFKTyGEjYtooS8groVlrmXmizZRjAoRUB60dWtr-ibBy88nxDYqtM9IZoEJzfsGgy7vk2qGpB_bcQDWXvTGaXb8kb3fKAOemSXBc00qK1ahIBjdm60UGeJaOdMciA81ffx_h59KEFsO9TBOtyZwE_39-nkDM8HyuI67AAroRlmXFq8Wh2g3hzbvOuaaHKkeo06Z-Wyy0zTPrJtUQUgNt3QdgUc16GBpkBKzisq9Xhw3TobVdCUl6Q-9tJGeONl-RDc0DTF-nm3yuYTyV3Mc66eSuOd9afQzXIqN1kWW_KkeG7gBUkfmArRXieSmVnfZ3rM7-pvqEHqRe7539QC_tMnY-WVfkLx58Dtkmz_dJhxdBQJmbRu0fgFwI7WLQL4-ldgvjTWXkOBO41YIrC-ppxomiImi3X259DYSGWXz-B-5tZ3mDQCwSN5xGPUL7vnyCxFDmUaQ28-08QhhneSc6uX42DZbqgNBnu7GOwVsbQ78VXULsIR8cuAE63aOO8ocYnqcr-P0QNUKBu9tn=w1265-h844-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8WqWRwHfwFC3Bg9YZFemUciys51VwownkEF7CHbzDupt8PazSyAtLd0Fsa55Xt_ZnUOQZpys5ygf-UbQPQrY4myrOxkoElbigdjNWJEfuU2VnxZvxq-v_jMtkRsSV-9Ryv3pkPkgBVeuaJTwCmK0DbPX_8kgGSGRhfP9wcOyQefE0G-YncPD_mgApu9UI2mwX9_ScHRW77R7E8F75yb-KvDgSGlC-gWbAiO3kfM0lZr-eOTaP5QIyOdEpCFlu-4U70b_usCzO423_TGLaX3NaEDleqiTtJ6guCEw3SYLDhsKkxq9qxD5Gg9YTL70V1bbKQvpe_7fEv4-HcSUMqEdPqLMYRz0iT4t93L9PymfowWp6Ikm-fWHadEosMrfTolkoaEmboSwP00FdWpsmcne68RNwoMLVtNpMPgzFrO0imP2DXcirUngV8P30n8AQS1WY4RbjXeIwU1EadkPbbGVvZZQYH4rDWhpgXI_cVKRDvG7eg6wdPi4fauTndm8hOC0v-5kK7fBhDl15-HBvQy_gkRkaadkSDTlfX800eWTkFxw8hI8TIex_3IzEJjhH-y4mpqy=w1265-h844-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kE00U16Wp4qgwAEi0GoHpQzSK62XhAmZojsjSLBOWY5fb0uWM2kpBIrHt0jrfF-20Dy8aGKbOzb-sIVFIHIGAa33sqnj4qiGywMykP5BjjC_f22LVe78ykpe2whd2X8TPogM1rLrmJeDs116wSg2z2kTjtLCMxt6h0PAgXZb8eCWYg0MlJEwj1-Mco-GbtOvZ-kQ-ri5X6nBxspVmAR_oug4JTnRjCAOLzCF_2TGiZr6UKGIi6RS9YHP4CtdApS0G3xA51bin83l2rf7sfoVPo8VT9svOVkgESNWnqfzflMyG6urfcTZr_s6LtlbIcx8XPoNLUPfih-x9UObYca6mqQQNN3lKkZZGmIviMlhYJ-xY-FQkIDg56-zcd0E4cVygrin7ydYyUJyIPGvZSDYZYrzlagetTytorSUtrrZTKB6di1PBqfZ7RiXJPcTJmFN_sr9bz_Dh9HDVxCLFnDzekN6i7zOzy8MlWQUNywr77AdFkK9YaTngYNC5v2Hn0htLnx0ynIwHQTgHDuBwS6ihzk7xWwNxuxdqxIlpRY7f8EM3cOrI81hY7sXO8jxbZRwBNKk=w691-h434-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LwQRUULue5AfGk_mGkatWv17-9mb0I_HaK5MRl7TZ2cfjtvPz7dWnFeMB5GYzZH5Hk7XNgoV1eaOp_vKP4lpoUW6ttghPqrqmfoyB0naEKRdsMYlfwzjvZEzi-Tnqek7D3-EbSdgyUrpfkOLBZVCN_rvHLxEVZ3-blQbZC1spWB3Ha1XxZ_lPvK0AHi3awriD_x85d7_65P0ed6RJzPIlReYNCUP9gl8ykwOKqs3VQDmVlpVR5fX_OPZolQakpTIkFamGq7X4FY05mVhcWwsSunYsciFhSElQCLsyIJog2Q-BaQKeIchLZjYtEj3G-Y4z66UuWuiX0p_TXcVgG-QBceAEL-EfbkO3szU8xX1n8vpHma0TbI5lUY38O-T2_CHFVNa8QR1tWv3Bj8Zxn-h7XZw1J3wz_J70q8nYuyhqd0rCbT1fkEzhL6e8LMCMzadfqR49ECGlpY-jMfxNPm_uFC6LMCvq0NUuEJEndC99hT4lMFNoa7m77Gsx6prRvFHhKzMjoIByLSlz-Au-2SoKJMsptLiFxw99Dd0YtX2wtgXZOeZcYK7CS9tgYEvTFIXFCJl=w1195-h896-no)
What I mix is
8 oz black enamel
8 oz clear
4 oz catalyst
5 oz flattener -
1 med wet followed by 2 full coats.
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James, I am liking that sheen and texture. Thanks for helping the little guy or the inexperienced with your vast knowledge.
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Two Camaro's at MCACN for Vintage certification. Kurt was also there examining them.
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.....
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I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to pop up after this weekend.. lol
Notice anything else odd about the white L78?
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Wow, I can't remember the last time I have replied to a post.
But I did see both cars at MCACN. I noticed the tail pan was spot welded to the quarter on the white car. I have never seen that before.
Everything else looked untouched in the area, as in all factory manufacturing. Maybe a rookie or broken equipment that day?? George
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George,
Are you referring to the pictures in reply 174 with the tack welds securing the tail panel to the quarter?
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Kurt was the one that showed me. First time I saw it it was still on the rack.
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George,
Are you referring to the pictures in reply 174 with the tack welds securing the tail panel to the quarter?
Yes that is the picture I was referring to. George
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The tailpanels were not full gloss (I don't think anyone argues that), but the blue one was the glossiest tailpanel I've ever seen. Yes, built in the summer.
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The tailpanels were not full gloss (I don't think anyone argues that), but the blue one was the glossiest tailpanel I've ever seen. Yes, built in the summer.
LOL wonder how many of us looked at that and both commented and took pictures. Know I did!
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LOL wonder how many of us looked at that and both commented and took pictures. Know I did!
x2
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I finally had my 68 L34 re-painted about three years ago (July build Butternut yellow with black top). Based on this thread and other resources I had the painter spray the tail panel in 70-80% gloss. This was done with a B/C C/C system so most of the flattener was in the clear. I haven't washed and polished it more than ten or twelve times but I think the tail panel has become more glossy. I avoided putting any polish or swirl remover on the black. Frankly just polishing it with a cloth seems to have made it somewhat more glossy. It still has a slight semi gloss look but against the butternut it really stands out. But according to the above posts my car may have had a glossy tail panel sheen since it was built in hot summer. Folks may want to consider starting with a little more satin look to start, with the idea that as it gets cleaned and polished with time it still retains the semi-gloss look your after.
Allen