CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ggtsvnv on May 14, 2007, 05:12:19 AM
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This is how it was presented on the Nastyz28 second gen site so I presented it the same way here. At this time on that site most people feel that the SS was the top level of first gen Camaro. My personal opinion is it depended on what you wanted, the Z/28 was the better all round car, while the SS 396 would be the better stop light to stop light car. What started the debate on the second gen site was when the Camaro returns in 2009 what should the top performance model be, Z/28 or SS?
Thanks for your replys.
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I would think the COPO's were the top factory 1st gen, followed by the Z.
Tom
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Well, ...As you mentioned, it really depends. The SS was top as far as horsepower, ...the Z was top as being an SCCA racer. Take a look at the 4th gen cars, ...a Z28 was 'upfitted' to an SS (hence SS might be considered 'top' there).
I know you're looking for an answer as to which would be considered 'top', ...but it really depends on who you ask, ...and what is 'top' to them. These days, 'hp' is touted quite a bit, ...so I'd guess "SS" would come out on top in an opinion poll.
If Chevrolet does keep both labels for the 5th gen, ...I think (in holding the heritage of the names) the right choice would be for the SS to be on top with regard to horsepower, ...and the Z to have the handling suspension upgrades available for track use. I'm sure there will be 'packages' available where there will be a lot of overlap (ie. hp, suspension, both, etc.) but that's how it is these days.
Kevin
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When Camaro first came out in the '67 model year I'd say that the SS was "Top Dog"...of course the Z/28 was not yet offrered. Then the Z came out and as it ran in Trans Am it gained recognition it started to catch up to the SS. By '69 the Z/28 was "Top Dog"...if you look at Chevy's marketing the Z definitely supercedes SS from '68 up. Z/28 is the "brand" that is most recognized as a Camaro item - in fact as a legend in American car names (jsut as T/A became)...the SS was dropped after '72 but the Z continues (with a two year hiatus) until the end of the production run in 2003.
If you look at sales of vehicles now, Z's consistantly fetch big dollars and are in constant demand. They were one of the early Camaros to "catch on" as collector cars...SS lags behind.
As far as stop light to stop light, well ask Jerry M, Old Reliable turns some pretty impressive numbers now as it did in the day...numbers that a 396/375 car would be pressed to match.
I don't think that the COPO cars, or ZL-1's or Nickey, or Yenko should count. Dealer mod-ed, back door, etc....one had to be a racer in the know to go after some of these variants or have the bucks to pay for the after purchase upgrades....would a Callaway corvette be in the running for top corvette? Or early AMG Hammer Mercedes for that mark?
and last, the guys on Nasty Z/28 who whine (by and large) about the SS being "Top Dog" are those who own the 2nd gen BB cars...they are miffed that Z's fetch more money and attention. So if they can establish the BB 1st gen cars as "Top Dogs" then they can carry it over to 2nd gens.
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So far, in a sense, everybody is right. It really depends on how you define performance. If I just had to decide, I'd say Z. As far as the 2009, they will probably call their top performer, the Camaro MPG...
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Hey ggtsvnv,
since I rarely or never visit the BS section on Nasty Z/28 I hadn't looked at the thread you mention...I see that you covered some of the same ground I did above...so don't take my comments personally.
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For 2009, GM needs to get their case moving if they don't want to become Toyota . Ford is coming out with all these good looking Shelby cars and must say, they do look good. Just wonder how many potential camaro customers GM has lost by not getting these platforms out.
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IMO based on what options were available from the "factory" for the first generation Z and SS ,it would have to be the SS.
Dave
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Definitely the Z/28! Try shifting a SS at 8600 rpm and see how long it last! ;)
Paul
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For a nicely optioned (power windows and A/C for instance) car it was hard to beat a 396/325 car. Not bad stop light to stop light (with the right tranny and gears) and you could order options to your hearts delight. It just depends on what you wanted: Brutal acceleration and handling (Z28), just brutal acceleration (396/375 and all COPO cars) or a semi-brutal cruiser with creature comforts (396/325). As we all know, back in the day ALL of these combos were available if you checked the right boxes.
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I have a 69 Z/28 which I love. I was there back in the old days. The Z was maybe pushed and advertised a little harder but no way as popular as the 375 horse SS. Come on, with a set of headers, 7" slicks and a little distribitor and carb work that car ran easy 11.40's. There was NO contest. I am still a SB man and will always be one but the proof is in the pudding! ;D
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I have a 69 Z/28 which I love. I was there back in the old days. The Z was maybe pushed and advertised a little harder but no way as popular as the 375 horse SS. Come on, with a set of headers, 7" slicks and a little distribitor and carb work that car ran easy 11.40's. There was NO contest. I am still a SB man and will always be one but the proof is in the pudding! ;D
Only 4800 L78 and 20,000 Z/28. No way was L78 more popular. ;D
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FlowJoe: No offence taken.
My opinion is they were/are both great cars, but the Z/28 was the better all around performance package. The L89/L78 & L34 SS 396's were very quick and great drag/stoplight to stoplight cars but didn't handel like the Z/28. It just came down to what you wanted.
I did not intend to start any arguments, and please keep the opinions comming.
Thanks
Oh by the way at this time on NastyZ28 the Z28 has a slight lead.
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Z hands down, but I'm not prejudiced.
68 Z28
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I started buying and driving 69 camaros in 1977 ,by that time they were just 9yr old used cars. But in the circles I traveled in you only raised eyebrows if you had a Z28. My first was a X44 350 NOM hugger orange 4 speed car,and even back then it took me over a year to find a Z28 to buy. Stopped for gas on the way home from picking it up and a guy offerd me 900.00 more than I had just paid. I had friends with SSs and none got any attention when I pulled up in the Z. They all could out run me red light to red light, but that could never match the mystique of that dusk blue RS/Z28. I think it was because the SS label was shared with Impala,Nova,Chevelle ,and later Monte carlos and trucks. It was just not as exclusive, a Z28 was a High Proformance camaro period. Oh , I guess you can tell my vote went to the Z. But I have to admit I love them all.
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Look at the race history record books too. 1968 was a year that the 1968 Z28 won the world championship title for NHRA and SCCA trans-am racing. Two different types of racing and yet one Camaro model (Z28) won the championship in both arenas. Has any other car ever done that?
Jerry
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my vote goes to the Z28
In 1979 sometimes after work I would raced my 69z with the starting line being by the shop. We would draw a crowd. A close friend of mine had a 71 455 transam. we ran pretty close together, he would win some and I would win some. My little 302 was unbelievable.
Larry
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When you say cubic inches will prevail , you would presume the larger to win, but what some people did not understand, like the case above , 455 TA against a 302 Camaro, its how you drove them. The 455 prolly laid down at 5500 where the 302 was just beginning fly. Powerband plays a big part here. For some of the guys with 4:88 or 4:56 gears with the 302, they blew away many at stop lite racing.
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Hey Jerry!!!
Didn't AMX win the SCCA Trans Am Championship in both 68 and 69 with Mark Donahue? They also won the SCCA Road Racing Championship in 67. Or were there different classes for the AMX and Camaro?
Dave
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Jerry!
I stand corrected! Camaro did win it in 68.
Dave
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Speaking of head's up racing. In the final round for E/ Stock class eliminations at the NHRA national event in Englishtown, NJ last summer, I had to run a 400 Pontiac Firebird 4-speed for the final, and won. 10.89 to a 10.97. A 302 against a 400 cu in big block.
FYI, Ben Wenzel was out testing last weekend and went 10.53 in D/stock. That's fast!
Jerry
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That is fast Jerry! Wenzel always runs well! Something to set your sights on! ;D
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Speaking of head's up racing. In the final round for E/ Stock class eliminations at the NHRA national event in Englishtown, NJ last summer, I had to run a 400 Pontiac Firebird 4-speed for the final, and won. 10.89 to a 10.97. A 302 against a 400 cu in big block.
FYI, Ben Wenzel was out testing last weekend and went 10.53 in D/stock. That's fast!
Jerry
Pontiacs don't come in big blocks or small blocks (at least prior to corporate dictates in '81)...just Pontiac blocks ;D...which, of course, doesn't take anything away from overcoming a 98CI deficit
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z/28's were the top camaros.