CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chuck-68-Cam on February 23, 2023, 11:05:17 PM
-
Just a general question for those that want to answer, if I were only to buy one all encompassing book for 68 camaro, what book would you choose?
-
Take a Three Prong approach.
#1) C-R-G Reports and research Posted data and links
#1a) CRG forums current topics and archives
#2) J.M. 1967-68 Books
#3) Current Judging Manual (1967-1968)
Honorable Mention: Chevrolet by the Numbers 1965-1969
-
1967/1968 Camaro Legends Judging Manual - 525 color photos, 168 pages. Covers what is assembly line correct, component finishes, and some of the lesser known part numbers ( carbs, pulleys)
-
1967-1968 camaro reference book by John R. Hooper
-
There really isn’t 1 all encompassing because of the timeline of when good reference books were printed. And as time has marched on with the interwebs, book printing is not popular as it once was. So nothing new here. John Hoopers 67-8 was printed in 1994 and it’s great for what it is. Jerry’s Z/28 book goes back to 1990.
Me? I’m for Hoopers not only because my car is in it in several places, but also it covers the the whole spectrum of information that was available at the time. He happens to be a nice guy too.
-
There are so many great books, but I don't think any one of them are the all encompassing one book to have. I have all of the mentioned material, plus others, and still have to reference each at times to find what I'm looking for. I think there are several must haves for any or all first gen Camaros.
-
The GM Assembly Instruction Manual is great.
GM Service Manual is also great
I am not a fan of Hoopers books. I bought the 67-73 Data book and it has a number of issues. 1 page in the "69 section shows the blue "GM" stickers inside the door jamb that should not be there. Right next to that photo is a photo of an incorrectly painted (all silver) spare tire rim. I could go on. Hard to get it right with a reference like that.
-
Just to echo a little of what Jim & David said. Currently there is no ONE book that answers all the questions. This site and yenko.net are the best resources and you will find more knowledge and info and actually have a discussion (most of the time) plus information is always changing. Books you will see Rev 2, Edition 3 or part 4.. Are they good for reference? Of course but I promise you will find out more info is passed and shared here about Camaro data or originality than any other site or book. Thats my worthless $0.02
-
The GM Assembly Instruction Manual is great.
GM Service Manual is also great
I am not a fan of Hoopers books. I bought the 67-73 Data book and it has a number of issues. 1 page in the "69 section shows the blue "GM" stickers inside the door jamb that should not be there. Right next to that photo is a photo of an incorrectly painted (all silver) spare tire rim. I could go on. Hard to get it right with a reference like that.
weasel22lanternLL
Not defending anyone, but that reference book is 30+ years old?. A lot of information has been uncovered/changed over the years. When I purchased my 69 Z in 1982, other than the DZ engine code, very little info existed like it does today. And a lot that has been published has turned out to be incorrect. I know because there have been several instances where what was published conflicted with my car. In each case my car was correct and what had been published was later revised. So it's an evolution of sorts.
-
Thanks guys. Rather then saying "all encompassing" I probably should have said best bang for the buck.
I already have the AIM and I never miss a post here that I do not read and follow, so good to go there. So it seems Hoopers books and Judging Manual are the general consensus. I will start with those.
-
Hoopers books - albeit somewhat informative is just a combobulation of Camaro pictures........just get JMN's Fact Book (technically fantastic) & the new 67-68 Camaro Legends Judging Manual. That's all ya gonna need. Just me 2 cents worth folks.....
-
HEY! Don't forget
1981
"CAMARO! Chevy's Classy Chassis"
I still use it
-
Been searching most of the morning. I think I figured out what JM (Indy Post) and JMN's Fact Book (Camaronut post) refers to, is it Jerry MacNeish?
I think I am going to get...
JMN's Fact Book
new 67-68 Camaro Legends Judging Manual
And throw in a hooper book.
That should be enough to hold me over. Can someone tell me what the current release dates are for the 1st two books?
Thanks for all the input guys. Learning alot here, much appreciated.
-
Hooper's books are 'Coffee Table Books', with pretty pictures for the novice and lots of inaccurate information...
-
Thanks for the input 69z. I found a link for the Legends Judging Manual, Is this the newest?
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173652
-
Thanks for the input 69z. I found a link for the Legends Judging Manual, Is this the newest?
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173652
I see on the 2023 Camaro Nationals website, at the bottom of this webpage, there's a contact email address for ordering the 69 manual, so one might assume the 67-68 are also now available to order. Also states they can ship to you.
https://camaronationals.org/camaro-legends-1969-judging-manual-now-available/
-
Thanks for the input 69z. I found a link for the Legends Judging Manual, Is this the newest?
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173652
It just recently came out, so yes.
-
HEY! Don't forget
1981
"CAMARO! Chevy's Classy Chassis"
I still use it
Come on, it's really not that bad!
-
.02 below.
10 or more years before the World Wide Web was a word any of us ever heard of, books were all we had. I remember seeing more than a dozen Camaro books back in the 80s and early 90s. I assumed they were all accurate and were factually correct in every aspect. But we all know different now. See below for the CRG. link of some that were available.
http://www.camaros.org/crgrefs.shtml
Kudos to anyone who coughed up the big money, put a solid effort to publish information they believed to be true and accurate, put their reputation on the line, and did what none of us had done. Kudos is actually a huge understatement. Are there some books that more or less just published already published data/pictures etc? Yes there are. I wouldn’t say they are coffee table books for anyone who is new to the hobby. Because there are always new people to the hobby who know nothing about the cars, except they like them.
One thing that gets seriously overlooked from the start is who did the person who put the book together get their information from? I guarantee there were hundreds if not thousands of hours of research, questions, travel, looking at cars, phone calls via landline to get answers just to name a few.
Camaronut and 69Z28RS, I would respectfully disagree with you about “Hoppers books” because there are (stand by while I search) at least 7 (Give credit to Donna Crispino as well) and they are all different. Data book/Reference/Recognition/Pace Car. That to me means at the time it’s the most accurate available at the time of printing. But it’s subject to change when new or more accurate information becomes available. Is some just reprinted? Absolutely. Was there a lot of new pictures/information/listing of parts numbers/casting numbers now available in 1 book? Yes! And not having to have several books to lug to Carlisle or any swap meet was awesome.
I remember Hooper and I had a few discussions about book content after his 69 Reference book was published. I immediately called him out on NOT having any 6 cylinder information. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Zero. Once again, the 20% bread and butter club that’s an afterthought got left out of another book. Still a huge part of sales totals nonetheless.
Jerry’s book is a “Definitive Fact”. That means everything inside is most accurate available at the time of printing. Everything inside the covers is gospel till the end of time. Period. No Legends Judge can question anything. Just reprint. And while I don’t agree with the title, I give kudos (again a huge understatement of a word) to Jerry for getting it done. Money and reputation on the line. Nobody else stepped up in this very specific option which I double dog dare any of us to do. Hell, this book was printed at least a decade before “Legends” was even used.
Is the Legends manual 100% spot on from cover to cover? I understand the 6 cylinder section is incomplete so I can’t spend my money just yet.
Frank incremona printed a 67-69 Fact book in 1984! I wonder how accurate that is compared to what we know today?
So click the link above, look at them for what they are, empower your knowledge, be kind, rewind. Or better yet, publish your own.
Enjoy your weekend.
-
Nice write up Dave. Funny, the link you posted to reference material was the reason I stated this post. There was no way I was buying all those books. I figured it could be narrowed down to two or three books.
-
An old thread but still pretty valid. THESE (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=40.0) are the books I always tell people to start out with.
Ed
-
Thanks ED :D
-
Don’t take the judging manual as gospel. Do your own research. There are some disputed info.
-
Ko-leak-tor, that doesn’t sound like good news. Disputed information about what should be correct? Ouch.
-
The 1969 Legends Judging Manual has been available since November, 2021. The 67/68 has been available since November, 2022. Both can be purchased through the Camaro Association's website or to be shipped thru the link. Also, the manuals can be purchased from any of the Legends judges. All proceeds when purchased thru these sources go towards the judging program and to support the Nationals.
Manuals can also be purchased from three Camaro parts vendors.
Camaro Legends is the 5000 point concours judging program at the Nationals. Cars are judged for what is "assembly line correct" This will be the 24th year of Legends judging, prior to that it was the Red White & Blue of the ICC.
We are more than grateful for the work of the CRG.
The Assembly manuals are great resources. But they don't show the level of detail needed when doing a "correct" restoration. The Legends manuals cover component finishes, specific appearances of hardware, and more. I don't know another resource that goes into the detail of the interior or trunk compartment. Not to mention the undercarriage and engine compartment. Plus all the changes in components over the course of the model year and there are a lot. And we show all this with great color photos.
We thought we did a great job with the 1969 manual. We chose not to duplicate block casting #'s, alternator #'s etc which were readily available elsewhere. We put more into the 67/68 manual for photos. And we also chose to list some of the lesser known component #'s such as pulleys, the 3 quadrajet versions, and fuel pumps. I think the 67/68 Legends Manual is over the top but I have a bias.
-
I think I have every Camaro book and I feel the 67/68 legends manual is a must have if you are restoring a 67 or 68 to factory correct. I have enjoyed learning things from this manual.
-
The 1969 Legends Judging Manual has been available since November, 2021. The 67/68 has been available since November, 2022. Both can be purchased through the Camaro Association's website or to be shipped thru the link. Also, the manuals can be purchased from any of the Legends judges. All proceeds when purchased thru these sources go towards the judging program and to support the Nationals.
Manuals can also be purchased from three Camaro parts vendors.
Camaro Legends is the 5000 point concours judging program at the Nationals. Cars are judged for what is "assembly line correct" This will be the 24th year of Legends judging, prior to that it was the Red White & Blue of the ICC.
We are more than grateful for the work of the CRG.
The Assembly manuals are great resources. But they don't show the level of detail needed when doing a "correct" restoration. The Legends manuals cover component finishes, specific appearances of hardware, and more. I don't know another resource that goes into the detail of the interior or trunk compartment. Not to mention the undercarriage and engine compartment. Plus all the changes in components over the course of the model year and there are a lot. And we show all this with great color photos.
We thought we did a great job with the 1969 manual. We chose not to duplicate block casting #'s, alternator #'s etc which were readily available elsewhere. We put more into the 67/68 manual for photos. And we also chose to list some of the lesser known component #'s such as pulleys, the 3 quadrajet versions, and fuel pumps. I think the 67/68 Legends Manual is over the top but I have a bias.
Am I wrong in assuming that the errors that have been found (cause I know there has to be some in a first attempt of writing a manual) are currently being corrected and that there will be a new version of the 69 and of course the 67/8 manuals? I do not own either but I was contacted by a few folks regarding info and of concerns of some questionable data. Was that corrected before release? I can't say as I do not feel like throwing mud at something or someone that I feel is potentially doing good for the hobby. I will say; if my opinion matters at all (which I know it doesn't ;) ), I would strongly encourage the folks working on this to bust up all three years as there are many differences between 7 & 8.
-
In my opinion they do a great job in the 67/68 manual showing differences in the 67 and 68 models…it’s actually good to see them both in the same manual because you can compare the different parts easily thus allowing you to determine if your part is correct for your year (and sometimes even build month) I have not seen the 69 manual however I was thinking it would be okay if they combined all three years. I learned from the manual some of the subtle difference between the two years that I didn’t know before.
-
The 1969 Legends Judging Manual has been available since November, 2021. The 67/68 has been available since November, 2022. Both can be purchased through the Camaro Association's website or to be shipped thru the link. Also, the manuals can be purchased from any of the Legends judges. All proceeds when purchased thru these sources go towards the judging program and to support the Nationals.
Manuals can also be purchased from three Camaro parts vendors.
Camaro Legends is the 5000 point concours judging program at the Nationals. Cars are judged for what is "assembly line correct" This will be the 24th year of Legends judging, prior to that it was the Red White & Blue of the ICC.
We are more than grateful for the work of the CRG.
The Assembly manuals are great resources. But they don't show the level of detail needed when doing a "correct" restoration. The Legends manuals cover component finishes, specific appearances of hardware, and more. I don't know another resource that goes into the detail of the interior or trunk compartment. Not to mention the undercarriage and engine compartment. Plus all the changes in components over the course of the model year and there are a lot. And we show all this with great color photos.
We thought we did a great job with the 1969 manual. We chose not to duplicate block casting #'s, alternator #'s etc which were readily available elsewhere. We put more into the 67/68 manual for photos. And we also chose to list some of the lesser known component #'s such as pulleys, the 3 quadrajet versions, and fuel pumps. I think the 67/68 Legends Manual is over the top but I have a bias.
Am I wrong in assuming that the errors that have been found (cause I know there has to be some in a first attempt of writing a manual) are currently being corrected and that there will be a new version of the 69 and of course the 67/8 manuals? I do not own either but I was contacted by a few folks regarding info and of concerns of some questionable data. Was that corrected before release? I can't say as I do not feel like throwing mud at something or someone that I feel is potentially doing good for the hobby. I will say; if my opinion matters at all (which I know it doesn't ;) ), I would strongly encourage the folks working on this to bust up all three years as there are many differences between 7 & 8.
And I agree since helping with a team effort on restoring a 67 there are a lot of differences between the 67 and 68 but do applaud the efforts with the current manual and suggest for anyone doing a serious restoration to have for reference.
To review a lot of info conerning a restoration of a '68 check this thread out, http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18398.0;all
-
Don’t take the judging manual as gospel. Do your own research. There are some disputed info.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. I hate seeing defining statements in these books.
-
My friends unrestored 67 Convertible that’s been on display at the GM Nationals. He’s never gotten a phone call. Pictures of the gas cap and grill emblem attached. I digress.
-
Tell us more about the gas cap and grill emblem. Assembly plant, month and week?
-
I KNOW I've seen those two "LEE" pictures before in one of my books, but I'll be darned if I can find them. I could have sworn it was in either the "Camaro! Chevy's Classy Chassis" or the "Camaro: 1967-1969 Fact Book", but I can't seem to find them.
Ed
-
I think I posted those before Ed, you’re not losing your sanity.
-
Topic: From the files of “They NEVER built it”. (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=19967.msg181154#msg181154)
-
Realized this thread got hijacked and I was part of it.…..DOH!
-
THERE WE GO!! Thanks!
Ed